Want Unity? You have only 2 options to achieve it

[74x12]

Well, the Us is right now on a possible course of either a dictatorship of the left or the right, or a civil war. But it is not too late yet, but that requires that enough gather in the center and start doing compromise.

So it is concerning how many are doing it on both the left and the right. Now if you focus too much on one of the sides, you can end up making it worse.

Why don't more people get that? Or maybe they don't care.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why don't more people get that? Or maybe they don't care.

That is a way long post with a lot of factors and causes. Do you want even the small version with out evidence, but just the bullet points?

 

[74x12]

That is a way long post with a lot of factors and causes. Do you want even the small version with out evidence, but just the bullet points?

Yeah that's fine. I'm just curious what you think.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yeah that's fine. I'm just curious what you think.

Okay!
The combination of technology and international trade in regards to what work is available.
The sorting into 2 tribes along social/cultural lines.
The idea of either government or the local can fix it alone, where it requires both.
The rise of income inequality.
The ability to seek out your echo chamber on the Internet and in the media landscape.
The problem of having a 2 part system.
The end of the cold war.
The size of the military in economical terms.
The idea of the American Dream and that the USA is special.

There is more, but it is a combination of factors.

 

[epronovost]

Knud Ejler Løgstrup - Wikipedia

The guy certainly had very interesting views on ethic that makes him a bit the anti Ayn Rand if you are familiar with her. I don't think that the wikipedia articles renders his ideas justice though. From the article his views on ethics and morality look terribly simplistic and very much just a dubious rationnalisation to defend a set of desired behavior from others and yourself more than a study and analysis for morals and ethics. It seems very shallow just from the resumé from wikipedia. It's probably a lot better in his original work though. Do you know if he has been translated in french and/or english? I might be interested in picking his book on the Ethical Demand.

 

[tytlyf]

But there's more to the divide than just the last election. Its been going on since before Trump, really. What do we do about that?

Of course, this all started around 2008-2010. With the Tea Party movement, funded and started by the Koch oligarchs.
Since then, social media has been flourishing as well as propaganda mills on the web/tv, etc.
Prior to that, we had radio. But that isn't as effective as today's media sources and ways to get information.
The Tea Party was the recent fuse that was lit by Capitalist's to further their mission of lowering taxes on the elitists, corporations and the 1%. (Taxed Enough Already)

1. The only thing to do about it is bring back the Fairness Doctrine that republicans eliminated to further their corporate agenda.
2. Teach critical thinking skills.
3. Find a way to show people who believe in alternative-facts to do more research and learn how to fact-check.

 

[tytlyf]

No, there are alternate facts in the extreme far left or far right. .

False equivalence. Can you explain to me what media or outlet would be considered "far-left?"

After that, I'll show you why it's a false equivalence due to website traffic statistics.

 

[tytlyf]

What you seem to be saying is that those who want the truth must also accept the lies, and those who want lies must also accept the truth.

No, only 1 of the 2 options can be viable. You can't have both to have Unity.

 

[tytlyf]

So why can't people disagree and still be friends like before? Why are ideas more important than people? When did that happen?

Tribalism. Results of propaganda intake. Many a family have been destroyed over politics recently.

Perhaps you're the true extremist when you'd divorce someone over their political views like many leftists encourage people to do.

Some of us care about the country more than party and we're looking for solutions to fix the problems America faces.

I know the left is extremist at this point.

I'll take a wild guess and say you probably have a diet of far-right newsmakers in your daily 'news' feed. Am I wrong?
Some of us watch RW media for entertainment and knowledge, others watch it thinking it's actually news (when it's not).

 

[tytlyf]

Ahhh, so an " alternative fact " is what most of us call a " claim "

Carry on

Sure, you could say that. Many people believe false claims and when confronted with the truth, run and hide. Blame the source, as programmed.

 

[sun rise]

What's an " alternative-fact " ?

Lies.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The guy certainly had very interesting views on ethic that makes him a bit the anti Ayn Rand if you are familiar with her. I don't think that the wikipedia articles renders his ideas justice though. From the article his views on ethics and morality look terribly simplistic and very much just a dubious rationnalisation to defend a set of desired behavior from others and yourself more than a study and analysis for morals and ethics. It seems very shallow just from the resumé from wikipedia. It's probably a lot better in his original work though. Do you know if he has been translated in french and/or english? I might be interested in picking his book on the Ethical Demand.

Få Ethical Demand af Knud Ejler Logstrup som e-bog i PDF format på engelsk - 9780268161255 An E-book. I think I have seen it in hard copy. One note though, he is a Christian, but for Danish social workers he is taught as a practice.
In effect you always hold the fate of another human in your hands in an encounter, because the responsible of your actions are on you as to how you view the value of a human life.
Now in practice Løgstrup can't stand alone, but on the other hand as I view it, you can't do it without. It is sort of simple, but not enough. The value of a human life is on you in how you treat the other human and that it is always a choice of how all humans have positive worth and dignity or not.

For Ayn Rand, yes, I have spent over 1 year on her. To me she is good for learning how not to do it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No, only 1 of the 2 options can be viable. You can't have both to have Unity.

So, pick either one -- I don't care which -- and you are still left with a contradiction. Or else I don't understand the difference between "rely on" and "believe and agree with."

How can I rely on gravity working properly, if I believe and agree that it doesn't?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

False equivalence. Can you explain to me what media or outlet would be considered "far-left?"

After that, I'll show you why it's a false equivalence due to website traffic statistics.

No, they are not as extreme, but you still have to keep an eye out for what they claim.
Here is an useful tool:
https://www.adfontesmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Third-Edition-Full.jpg?v=402f03a963ba
Yes, it is from 2017, so it might be somewhat outdated.

I use everything from MSNBC, CNN to The American Conservative for perspective and Poltico, the Hill, ABC and CBS for general news as to politics.
For far-left, they are there along with the far-right.
Now right now, the far-right is more dangerous than the far left, but that is now. You still have to watch out for a swing in the opposite direction.

 

[tytlyf]

No, they are not as extreme, but you still have to keep an eye out for what they claim.
Here is an useful tool:
https://www.adfontesmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Third-Edition-Full.jpg?v=402f03a963ba
Yes, it is from 2017, so it might be somewhat outdated.

I use everything from MSNBC, CNN to The American Conservative for perspective and Poltico, the Hill, ABC and CBS for general news as to politics.
For far-left, they are there along with the far-right.
Now right now, the far-right is more dangerous than the far left, but that is now. You still have to watch out for a swing in the opposite direction.

When are you going to tell me what these far-left outlets are? Cause calling CNN far-left isn't going to cut it.
So, please provide examples of far-left outlets

 

[SomeRandom]

Tribalism. Results of propaganda intake. Many a family have been destroyed over politics recently.
.

As an outsider can I ask just what the hell is going on with this recently?
I mean yeah we all have that one (or more) friend/relative we don’t discuss politics with. But it’s not a shunning offence.
But recently I’m hearing all sorts of horror stories about losing family to the Qanon conspiracy and hardcore Trumpism in particular.
I guess that shouldn’t surprise me given the cult of personality status of Trump. But I find myself still somewhat baffled

 

[JustGeorge]

Of course, this all started around 2008-2010. With the Tea Party movement, funded and started by the Koch oligarchs.
Since then, social media has been flourishing as well as propaganda mills on the web/tv, etc.
Prior to that, we had radio. But that isn't as effective as today's media sources and ways to get information.
The Tea Party was the recent fuse that was lit by Capitalist's to further their mission of lowering taxes on the elitists, corporations and the 1%. (Taxed Enough Already)

1. The only thing to do about it is bring back the Fairness Doctrine that republicans eliminated to further their corporate agenda.
2. Teach critical thinking skills.
3. Find a way to show people who believe in alternative-facts to do more research and learn how to fact-check.

But critical thinking skills will still lead to different conclusions. Not everyone who falls for this stuff is an idiot, but most of them are discontent.

Alternative facts are pretty wide encompassing, and sometimes the line gets hazy. Some things can be proven as most certainly untrue(or true), but a lot of topics show different studies. People cling to the one they like best. Which alternative facts are most important to be dealt with, and in what manner?

 

[ecco]

What 'truth' though? There is not one 'truth' in politics and there never has been.

There are many truths.

1. Biden received more votes than Trump
2. Biden received more electoral votes than Trump
3. Trump's lawyers presented 60 cases, only one case was decided in their favor.

Christians and Muslims say the same about their religions. If only folks would pray and read their scriptures, then they'd believe.

Perhaps the ingrained gullibility of religious people is responsible for the lack of critical thinking skills in so many on the right.

 

[Rival]

Perhaps the ingrained gullibility of religious people is responsible for the lack of critical thinking skills in so many on the right.

Well haven't you presented yourself as a thoughtful and considerate person?

 

[74x12]

I'll take a wild guess and say you probably have a diet of far-right newsmakers in your daily 'news' feed. Am I wrong?
Some of us watch RW media for entertainment and knowledge, others watch it thinking it's actually news (when it's not).

I used to listen to many such right wing shows until I realized they're controlled propaganda like the left wing media is also which I already saw pretty clearly. You see, it's easy to see through the propaganda of the other side ... but when it's your own side it's difficult. You have to fight your own mind. Your own confirmation bias. Unprogram yourself.

Even your entertainment shows are controlled "programming". They often put more truth in fiction than in the news. The reason is to prepare you for what will be revealed later. It's called inoculation. You saw it on a fake TV show so you don't believe it when it really happens.

Tribalism. Results of propaganda intake. Many a family have been destroyed over politics recently.

You're correct. So would you agree with me that people need to tone down the rhetoric against the other side and come together before it's too late?

Some of us care about the country more than party and we're looking for solutions to fix the problems America faces.

I hope so. But lately a few on RF have convinced me that they don't hold that view. They believe in no compromise or tolerance. Instead they've been compromised by the rhetoric of the msm propaganda machine.