War in heaven...why do they even rebel?

[gnostic]

Since Jews don't believe that Satan is the personification of EVIL, then I supposed this thread would be directed towards Christians, or even to the Muslims.

Supposed what the Christians believe that there were war(s) in heaven between God and Satan. Considering that God is all-powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient), then why would Satan and his followers of fallen angels (or for the Muslims, djinns) even rebel against God, let alone go to war against God's side, when the only outcome is for them to lose eventually?

:sorry1: for that overly long question.

 

[Revoltingest]

They're all pre-programmed to follow the script in God's soap opera.
Obvious, isn't it? He's all about the drama.

 

[Sihopopa]

Since Jews don't believe that Satan is the personification of EVIL, then I supposed this thread would be directed towards Christians, or even to the Muslims.

Supposed what the Christians believe that there were war(s) in heaven between God and Satan. Considering that God is all-powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient), then why would Satan and his followers of fallen angels (or for the Muslims, djinns) even rebel against God, let alone go to war against God's side, when the only outcome is for them to lose eventually?

:sorry1: for that overly long question.

This is my first post on this forum, so please don't be too harsh with what you are about to read. I know it is different and also controversial.

As far as I am concerned, people have always been reading scripture from an incorrect focus. Consider if you will - just for a minute or two, even though this perspective will seem strange at first.

Firstly the scriptures are not written from a physical perspective, but a spiritual, so for mine, we need to view such as this observation from an alternative perspective than the physical. So 'God' for instance is NOT a physical 'man' or anything like this. Therefore He is something non-physical (which by my reckoning indicates - spiritual), and 'Heaven' also is NOT a physical place, but again - spiritual (non-physical). So now, here is my alternative perspective;

'Heaven' is a location inside our brain.
'God' is our intelligence - inside our brain.
'Satan' is our emotions - the other half of our thoughts - which aims to corrupt them.
The 'war' then is an ongoing conflict between our intelligence and our emotions - towards our choice/s - which are made physical in our 'earth'.
The earth - is our physical bodies - the flesh and blood that will always belong to the planet we inhabit.

Please consider Romans 7:15 "For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate."

This is all about the 'war' within our reasoning - leading to our choices which become a frustration to us - when indeed we aim at making the most correct (intelligent) selection, but too often weaken through the input from our emotions - to "do what we would not".

This also dovetails perfectly with Matt 6:24 ""No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other." So the two masters then - at any moment of choice, would be our 'intelligence' - which never changes/is eternal, and our 'emotions' (which are always changing).

With the above; you have a spiritual perspective rather than a physical one.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

Since Jews don't believe that Satan is the personification of EVIL, then I supposed this thread would be directed towards Christians, or even to the Muslims.

Supposed what the Christians believe that there were war(s) in heaven between God and Satan. Considering that God is all-powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient), then why would Satan and his followers of fallen angels (or for the Muslims, djinns) even rebel against God, let alone go to war against God's side, when the only outcome is for them to lose eventually?

:sorry1: for that overly long question.

God raised luicfer to a higher level then he originally was (maybe even to the point of having free will) Then Luicfer convinced 1/3 of the angels to join with him. Why did Luicfer wanted to rebel? Because he wanted to be in charge.

 

[Misty]

The mythical tale of the so called 'war in heaven', would indicate heaven isn't so wonderful after all!

 

[smokydot]

Since Jews don't believe that Satan is the personification of EVIL, then I supposed this thread would be directed towards Christians, or even to the Muslims.

Supposed what the Christians believe that there were war(s) in heaven between God and Satan. Considering that God is all-powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient), then why would Satan and his followers of fallen angels (or for the Muslims, djinns) even rebel against God, let alone go to war against God's side, when the only outcome is for them to lose eventually?

:sorry1: for that overly long question.

Scripture shows a trial of obedience for all mutable intelligent beings, which trial has eternal consequences--these mutable beings are made immutable, fixed, in their choice.

The first trial was of the angels in heaven.
Scripture does not specify what was the trial.
My personal feeling is that it occurred when God presented to the heavenly hosts his decree to create material beings and elevate them into the Godhead.
Angels are not in the Godhead, so God would be elevating mere material beings above the angels.
Satan's pride decevied him into thinking he could prevent it.
Those who sided with Satan were made immutable in their opposition to God.
Those who sided with God were made immutable in their obedience to God.

The second trial was of Adam and Eve, immortal mutable intelligent beings.
Failure of their trail resulted in losing eternal life (represented in loss of their immortality), and being made immutable in their sin.

The third trial was of the second Adam, Jesus of Nazareth, in the stead for Adam's descendants. The second Adam did not fail, those who identify with the second Adam's trial for their own are restored to eternal life and their sin dealt with.

 

[james2ko]

Since Jews don't believe that Satan is the personification of EVIL, then I supposed this thread would be directed towards Christians, or even to the Muslims.

Supposed what the Christians believe that there were war(s) in heaven between God and Satan. Considering that God is all-powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient), then why would Satan and his followers of fallen angels (or for the Muslims, djinns) even rebel against God, let alone go to war against God's side, when the only outcome is for them to lose eventually?

:sorry1: for that overly long question.

After billions of years, satan's rebellious nature has been forever ingrained in his character. He knows his fate and his enormous pride will not let him go down without a fight.

 

[gnostic]

They're all pre-programmed to follow the script in God's soap opera.
Obvious, isn't it? He's all about the drama.

If this is true, then I don't think I would be surprised.

 

[gnostic]

This is my first post on this forum, so please don't be too harsh with what you are about to read. I know it is different and also controversial.

I will try to moderate my bluntness.

Firstly the scriptures are not written from a physical perspective, but a spiritual, so for mine, we need to view such as this observation from an alternative perspective than the physical. So 'God' for instance is NOT a physical 'man' or anything like this. Therefore He is something non-physical (which by my reckoning indicates - spiritual), and 'Heaven' also is NOT a physical place, but again - spiritual (non-physical). So now, here is my alternative perspective;

'Heaven' is a location inside our brain.
'God' is our intelligence - inside our brain.
'Satan' is our emotions - the other half of our thoughts - which aims to corrupt them.
The 'war' then is an ongoing conflict between our intelligence and our emotions - towards our choice/s - which are made physical in our 'earth'.
The earth - is our physical bodies - the flesh and blood that will always belong to the planet we inhabit.

Please consider Romans 7:15 "For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate."

This is all about the 'war' within our reasoning - leading to our choices which become a frustration to us - when indeed we aim at making the most correct (intelligent) selection, but too often weaken through the input from our emotions - to "do what we would not".

This also dovetails perfectly with Matt 6:24 ""No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other." So the two masters then - at any moment of choice, would be our 'intelligence' - which never changes/is eternal, and our 'emotions' (which are always changing).

With the above; you have a spiritual perspective rather than a physical one.

Whether this rebellion is physical or spiritual or just in the mind, is not truly relevant.

The question I'd ask is why would Satan or any of his followers choose to rebel against a divine being who is supposedly omnipotence, where there is absolutely no hope of them winning? Why fight when there is no hope of winning?

 

[gnostic]

God raised luicfer to a higher level then he originally was (maybe even to the point of having free will) Then Luicfer convinced 1/3 of the angels to join with him. Why did Luicfer wanted to rebel? Because he wanted to be in charge.

If God is supposed to be all-powerful and his victory is foregone conclusion, then wouldn't it be insanely crazy to fight when you know you can't possibly win?

 

[smokydot]

If God is supposed to be all-powerful and his victory is foregone conclusion, then wouldn't it be insanely crazy to fight when you know you can't possibly win?

That's what it means to be deceived.
He was deceived by his pride.

See post #6.

 

[Onkara]

If God is supposed to be all-powerful and his victory is foregone conclusion, then wouldn't it be insanely crazy to fight when you know you can't possibly win?

It is similar in the Sanatana Dharma Puranas, which are a type of scripture explaining God's life. In the Srimad Bhagavatam, normally it is the Asuras who fight God. The Asuras are a race of beings, who by their very nature are atheistic, follow their desires and enjoy hurting others. The opposite are the Devas, who are good and God loving.

It is very clear that God created these beings and He spends a great deal of energy in destroying them. What is more He sometimes favours Asuras in contrast to the Devas. This may appear illogical, but given that everything is God's creation, and He has the power to create again and again, there is no limitation.

The reason is that it is His Lila (or divine play). (see post 2) The scriptures confirms God is One in Sanatana Dharma, He became many i.e. created the universe or the diversity in it, to experience His creation.

 

[Caladan]

Since Jews don't believe that Satan is the personification of EVIL, then I supposed this thread would be directed towards Christians, or even to the Muslims.

Supposed what the Christians believe that there were war(s) in heaven between God and Satan. Considering that God is all-powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient), then why would Satan and his followers of fallen angels (or for the Muslims, djinns) even rebel against God, let alone go to war against God's side, when the only outcome is for them to lose eventually?

:sorry1: for that overly long question.

Both in Jewish lore and Islamic lore one of the theme for the 'fall' of angelic creatures is their dismay at their God for creating humanity.

 

[Renji]

Maybe because Satan and his cohorts are insolent. Satan has been corrupted by his own pride and rebelled against God.

 

[Thorwald Johansen]

Since Jews don't believe that Satan is the personification of EVIL, then I supposed this thread would be directed towards Christians, or even to the Muslims.

Supposed what the Christians believe that there were war(s) in heaven between God and Satan. Considering that God is all-powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient), then why would Satan and his followers of fallen angels (or for the Muslims, djinns) even rebel against God, let alone go to war against God's side, when the only outcome is for them to lose eventually?

:sorry1: for that overly long question.

Why do humans rebel, when the result of this rebellion is spiritual death (separation from God)? If The Son (part of The Godhead), in the flesh, could be crucified by man, even after being shown the miracles and taught the truth, is it not very easy to understand why angels rebelled? They must also have been created with 'freedom to make their own decisions'. My greatest fear, is whether or not, this can happen again after the judgement. If we become 'equal unto the angels', what is stopping us from rebelling later?

 

[joea]

You all talk about God and the devil etc...yet none of you has ever seen what they look like...what a waste of breath on such trivial nonsense.

 

[Renji]

You all talk about God and the devil etc...yet none of you has ever seen what they look like...what a waste of breath on such trivial nonsense.

The OP doesn't ask if God or the devil exists or not, nor is asking if one has seen them or not. :areyoucra

 

[Pegg]

Since Jews don't believe that Satan is the personification of EVIL, then I supposed this thread would be directed towards Christians, or even to the Muslims.

Supposed what the Christians believe that there were war(s) in heaven between God and Satan. Considering that God is all-powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient), then why would Satan and his followers of fallen angels (or for the Muslims, djinns) even rebel against God, let alone go to war against God's side, when the only outcome is for them to lose eventually?

:sorry1: for that overly long question.

The fact that some angels did rebel shows that they too must have free will.

We read in Genesis that God will eventually crush their rebellion...the Seed of God will 'bruise' the head of the serpent Satan.
Gen 3:15 "And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel."

The war in heaven didnt happen immediately though. The book of revelation is the only war in heaven mentioned and it was a 'future' prophecy.
Rev 12:7-12 7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

This was actually prophesied in the book of Daniel 12:1-4
“And during that time Mi′cha‧el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time....
4 “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end..."

When the war broke out in heaven it sparked great distress for the people of earth. We entered the time period prophetically called 'the last days'
Jesus also prophesied about this 'time of the end' at Matthew 24:7 “‘For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

Since the 'last days began' in the year 1914, the world has been in turmoil because Satan and his demons are angry, they know their time is short and they are hell bent on making life as hard as possible for the remainder of their pathetic little lives.

 

[gnostic]

We read in Genesis that God will eventually crush their rebellion...the Seed of God will 'bruise' the head of the serpent Satan.
Gen 3:15 "And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel."

This passage is between the woman and serpent. Nothing about conflict between angels and fallen angels, unless you think the "woman" (or Eve) is symbolically mean "angel" or "heaven". Considering that Eve was expelled from Paradise, hence she was "fallen", then I find it pretty doubtful.

Jesus also prophesied about this 'time of the end' at Matthew 24:7 “‘For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

There has always been since the Bronze Age, there always some famines in some part of the world, as well as earthquakes. The Matthew's passage can be use for any given time, and can be interpret in any given way. So I don't see how this is relevant to war in heaven.

Since the 'last days began' in the year 1914, the world has been in turmoil because Satan and his demons are angry, they know their time is short and they are hell bent on making life as hard as possible for the remainder of their pathetic little lives.

Sorry, I don't buy this too. There were wars before WW1, and turmoils happen all the time. How do you know it did not begin in Napoleon's time or that of Frederick the Great's or that of Thirty Years' War (17th century), or the Hundred Years' War (13th-14th centuries).

In the early part of Hundred Years' War, the plague, popularly known as the Black Death, swept across Europe, killing millions. People thought it was the End of the World, and thought that the Revelation was being fulfilled in their lifetime. But guess what. The world still turning.

 

[Pegg]

This passage is between the woman and serpent. Nothing about conflict between angels and fallen angels, unless you think the "woman" (or Eve) is symbolically mean "angel" or "heaven". Considering that Eve was expelled from Paradise, hence she was "fallen", then I find it pretty doubtful.

This is one of those scriptures where we need the scriptures to interpret for us.

Revelation 12:12 And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars, 2 and she was pregnant. And she cries out in her pains and in her agony to give birth....5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne

The woman spoke of in genesis is prophetic of the Kingdom of God. It is also called Gods 'Bride' in revelation. The child/seed is the Messiah who is given rulership of that Kingdom and it is the Messiah who will eventually crush Satan, the original serpent.

There has always been since the Bronze Age, there always some famines in some part of the world, as well as earthquakes. The Matthew's passage can be use for any given time, and can be interpret in any given way. So I don't see how this is relevant to war in heaven.

its the sheer velocity and number of disasters which are occuring simultaneously around the earth which makes the prophecy true for our times. In the past there certainly were terrible earthquakes and floods and disease... but never moreso then over the past 100 years have they been so prevalent and this may be due to our damaging of the environment.

Sorry, I don't buy this too. There were wars before WW1, and turmoils happen all the time. How do you know it did not begin in Napoleon's time or that of Frederick the Great's or that of Thirty Years' War (17th century), or the Hundred Years' War (13th-14th centuries).

bible chronology counts down the years of the gentiles... when we reach the year 1914, that marks the end of the 'appointed times of the Nations' and the beginning of Christ taking the throne in heaven.

It was when Jesus took that throne that the war in heaven took place and it was the first world wide war in mankinds history WW1... the evidence is that Satans influence intensified on earth causing the world to change dramatically.