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War in Heaven

NobodyYouKnow

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
Not that I know much about it, but even as a Hindu, I like to entertain the thought...

According to what I have learned/understood, Lucifer was kicked out of heaven for refusing to worship mankind (God's creation) as being 'superior' to God in any way.

I can fully understand this. Who in their right mind would worship a race of impure, selfish (and often stupid) mortals over a Divine creator?

I'd probably get kicked out of heaven as well (if I ever went there) for exactly the same reason.

Lucifer started the 'I have no faith in the future of mankind' first and he was literally 'demonized' for it.
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
NobodyYouKnow said:
Not that I know much about it, but even as a Hindu, I like to entertain the thought...

According to what I have learned/understood, Lucifer was kicked out of heaven for refusing to worship mankind (God's creation) as being 'superior' to God in any way.

I can fully understand this. Who in their right mind would worship a race of impure, selfish (and often stupid) mortals over a Divine creator?

I'd probably get kicked out of heaven as well (if I ever went there) for exactly the same reason.

Lucifer started the 'I have no faith in the future of mankind' first and he was literally 'demonized' for it.
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his name is not really lucifer...

He wasnt kicked out of heaven for refusing to worship mankind, he wanted them to worship him. And he was kicked out of heaven for rebelling against his maker and leading mankind away from their maker.
 
NobodyYouKnow

NobodyYouKnow

Misanthropist
Pegg said:
his name is not really lucifer...

He wasnt kicked out of heaven for refusing to worship mankind, he wanted them to worship him. And he was kicked out of heaven for rebelling against his maker and leading mankind away from their maker.
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Thank you for the clarification. It wasn't the way I heard it, but thanks for telling me now.
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
W

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
Pegg said:
The account in Daniel 10 describes a visit by one of the angles to Daniel. Daniel is told by the angel that he had wanted to come sooner but he was being opposed by one of the 'princes of persia'
10:13*But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Mi′cha·el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia.

Then the angel says that 'Micheal' came to his aid. This Angel was being resisted by another angel.

What the account shows is that in the heavens, there are good angels and bad ones. We call the bad ones 'demons'
These demons cause trouble, not only for people on earth, but also for the righteous angels in heaven. That is, they 'did' cause trouble in heaven until there was the war which saw them all cast down to the earth.

Revelation 12:7*And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8*but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9*So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10*And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11*And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12*On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
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How do we know the angel talking to Daniel was being resisted by another angel? Is the Prince of Persia an angel?
 
Fingy

Fingy

Member
Could we interpret Revelation 12:7 as a prophecy that will be fulfilled in the future, meaning that the "war" has yet to occur?
 
Iti oj

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
Man of Faith said:
Heaven was created before any humans were created, so things could have happened there, such as satan kicked out and sent to earth before hand, but I'm not sure about a war.
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Impossible as stated above Satan was working for God in the book of jobs.
 
rusra02

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Fingy said:
Could we interpret Revelation 12:7 as a prophecy that will be fulfilled in the future, meaning that the "war" has yet to occur?
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Revelation 1:1 says it was written for God's servants to know what the future would be. So when would this war take place? I believe Revelation 12:1-6 associates the war in heaven with the establishment of God's Kingdom there in heaven, with Jesus Christ given rulership. Verse 10 confirms this: "“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!" Satan knows his time is short and causes all manner of trouble for the earth.(verse 12) There is compelling evidence in Bible prophecy and chronology to believe this happened early in the 20th century, IMO.
 
nazz

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Zelophehad said:
I started out some years back a Christian who logged onto web sites like this one, as the Rider from Rev 19, and threw Muhammad and Allah into the lake of fire where they belong. I considered the internet the new heaven and earth, where Armageddon/Ragnorok takes place. Whole doing this I had prayed to Jesus. He was there for me in Heaven. We were very close, and he was all I prayed to. After a while I converted away from Jesus, and Armageddon broke out in my personal Heaven. I had a vision about it (I won't go into that now) and Jesus was kicked out of Heaven, and in his place I received every deity from every walk of life. I now am still the Rider online, but now I also throw Moses and YHWH into the lake where they belong. So, Ragnarok takes place on websites just like this one, as we are fighting the war of the Gods. And Ragnarok also takes place in your personal Heaven as Jesus is kicked out, and an army of deities from every other religion/mythology/philosophy stands in his place.

Jesus can enlighten you to the realm of Heaven, but once he does that, he props up YHWH as the only jealous, murdering God in that Heaven. Kicking Jesus out of Heaven freed me from the God of the OT. It freed me from having to cover up for YHWH, and from praising and worshipping open, unrepentant murderers. The Bible is a HUGE weight my shoulders that Jesus puts there. Glad he is gone.
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Sounds to me like you threw the baby out with the bathwater. Have you researched the Gnostic perspective? We don't call him YHWH but Yaldabaoth, Saklas, and Samael, the false god spoken of in the OT. Jesus rejected him also and told us to worship the Father alone.
 
nazz

nazz

Doubting Thomas
The Sum of Awe said:
Does anyone here (most likely Christian but open to any believer in a heaven particularly the Abrahamic heaven) believe in a literal war in heaven occurred?
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If you mean angels literally duking it out with swords or something, of course not. The Archons rebelled against the Pleroma. Now it's spiritual warfare for the hearts and minds of others.
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Horrorble said:
How do we know the angel talking to Daniel was being resisted by another angel? Is the Prince of Persia an angel?
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a mere human could not resist a powerful spirit creature.

Its interesting to see that the angle calls Michael, 'one of the foremost princes'
Michael is the Arch Angel... and he's called the 'foremost prince'

So by conclusion, if the Arch Angel is called the 'foremost' prince, then it implies that there are other princes in a lesser position.
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Fingy said:
Could we interpret Revelation 12:7 as a prophecy that will be fulfilled in the future, meaning that the "war" has yet to occur?
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Jesus said that his kingdom would come after 'the appointed times of the nations'

These 'appointed times' are also spoken of by Daniel and when you join up the prophecy of revelation and Daniel, you can calculate the very year that the appointed times will come to their end.

That end came 100 years ago. And this that time, the earth has seen a lot of woe.
 
Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Pegg said:
fair enough. Its a very strange idea anyway... not one that comes from any christian denominations that i'm aware of.
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It's from Islam:

When God created Adam, he commanded all the angels and Iblis (whose rank allowed him to be considered equal to that of an angel) to prostrate to Adam as was termed "the Best of Creation". All the angels did so but Iblis refused to obey, and was brought into a state of rebellion against God.[9] For this God cast him out of Jannah (paradise), and intended to punish him. Iblis begged God to delay the punishment until Yawm al-Qiyāmah (Last Judgment), which was granted by God.[10]
It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate.
(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
—Quran, sura 7 (Al-A'raf) ayat 11-12[11]
​
Iblis was proud and arrogant and considered himself superior to Adam, since Adam was made from clay and Iblis from smokeless fire. For this act of disobedience, God cursed him to Jahannam (Hell) for eternity, but gave him respite until the Day of Judgment, after Iblis requested it.[12] Iblis obtained permission from God and vowed that he would use this time to lead all men and women astray to Hell as a way of revenge against them. By refusing to obey God’s order he was thrown out of paradise and thereafter he was called "Shaytan."
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Devil (Islam) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
gnostic

gnostic

The Lost One
As far as I can see in the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh or OT), there are no war or rebellion. But it does appear in the New Testament.

But can seriously, anything written in Revelation to be taken seriously or literally.
 
nazz

nazz

Doubting Thomas
saint_frankenstein said:
It's from Islam:


Devil (Islam) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Yes, and I heard a Sufi commentary on this that throughout eternity Satan pines for God meditating constantly on God's last words to him, "Be gone". Such is his love for God. He's not God's enemy but man's in that point of view.

The idea of the angels being commanded to worship Adam originates in Judaism but did not make it into Christian doctrine.
 
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