Wartime Women

[lewisnotmiller]

Devaluation takes place whenever the real money supply (and not the nominal money supply) is far higher than the quantity of goods and services within a macroeconomic system.
There are so many lawyers and economists who agree with me. The specter of devaluation is something absolutely irrational invented by the monetarists, and based upon conjectures and logical fallacy.

Again...no...

You're conflating devaluation as an economic term with a more colloquial use of the word. Devaluation is where government policy is used to deliberately reduce the value of the country's monetary unit. The common example of this is where a country ties the value of their currency to a foreign currency. It is not merely an outcome of policy, but a deliberate engineering of it.

 

[Estro Felino]

Again...no...

You're conflating devaluation as an economic term with a more colloquial use of the word. Devaluation is where government policy is used to deliberately reduce the value of the country's monetary unit. The common example of this is where a country ties the value of their currency to a foreign currency. It is not merely an outcome of policy, but a deliberate engineering of it.

I think neither of us possesses the absolute truth,
You have a Monetarist approach, I have a neo.-Keynesian approach. Different interpretations of macroeconomics, which is not exact science.

Monetary circuit theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think neither of us possesses the absolute truth,

I don't even believe in an absolute truth, so I'll readily grant that.

You have a Monetarist approach, I have a neo.-Keynesian approach. Different interpretations of macroeconomics, which is not exact science.

Monetary circuit theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Our economic beliefs and philosophies may differ. But I've implemented financial systems, including in multi-national settings, for over 20 years. I'm not suggesting anything ideologically here. I am literally telling you that the meaning of the word 'devalue' when it comes to economics differs from how you are using it. That might be a translation thing, or it might be that you're using the word in a common way. But in economics...regardless of whether you subscribe to Monetarist or Keynesian approaches, or something else entirely...devaluation of currency occurs as a deliberate act initiated by the state. In practical terms this almost always relates to a currency being pegged to a foreign currency. An example of this is the crawling peg instituted by Brazil late last millenium.

As a sidenote, and despite what you think, I'm neither a 'pure' Monetarist nor a Keynesian. As an Australian, it's easy for me to see the benefits and the costs of deliberate increased government spending during recent pandemic crisis, as a simple example. My belief is that how the money is spent is important. So I'm not of the belief that 'any stimulus is good stimulus'. Nor do I think 'any stimulus leads to rampant inflation'. However, that makes NO difference to what devaluation is in economic terms.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't even believe in an absolute truth, so I'll readily grant that.


Our economic beliefs and philosophies may differ. But I've implemented financial systems, including in multi-national settings, for over 20 years. I'm not suggesting anything ideologically here. I am literally telling you that the meaning of the word 'devalue' when it comes to economics differs from how you are using it. That might be a translation thing, or it might be that you're using the word in a common way. But in economics...regardless of whether you subscribe to Monetarist or Keynesian approaches, or something else entirely...devaluation of currency occurs as a deliberate act initiated by the state. In practical terms this almost always relates to a currency being pegged to a foreign currency. An example of this is the crawling peg instituted by Brazil late last millenium.

As a sidenote, and despite what you think, I'm neither a 'pure' Monetarist nor a Keynesian. As an Australian, it's easy for me to see the benefits and the costs of deliberate increased government spending during recent pandemic crisis, as a simple example. My belief is that how the money is spent is important. So I'm not of the belief that 'any stimulus is good stimulus'. Nor do I think 'any stimulus leads to rampant inflation'. However, that makes NO difference to what devaluation is in economic terms.

Money is an instrument, not an end.
It's not something spiritual to worship.

As a pen. A pen is an instrument, it's not the goal of someone's existence.
So devaluation may be a problem (or rather it will surely be a problem) to certain people who cannot live, unless they have hyper-valued money, because money to them is an end.

But for commoners, devaluation is not a problem. Because in the long run there will be the economic adjustments.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Money is an instrument, not an end.
It's not something spiritual to worship.

As a pen. A pen is an instrument, it's not the goal of someone's existence.
So devaluation may be a problem (or rather it will surely be a problem) to certain people who cannot live, unless they have hyper-valued money, because money to them is an end.

But for commoners, devaluation is not a problem. Because in the long run there will be the economic adjustments.

That's sadly not true. Inflation is currently leading to hardship for both home owners and renters in my country. This is more of an issue for 'commoners' than for the rich, for obvious enough reasons.

I'm also unsure what your comments have to do with the word definition of 'devaluation', but you appear to remain caught up on a belief that devaluation just means 'has less value'. Which isn't what the word means in an economic context.

Nothing to do with 'worshipping money'.

 

[Estro Felino]

That's sadly not true. Inflation is currently leading to hardship for both home owners and renters in my country. This is more of an issue for 'commoners' than for the rich, for obvious enough reasons.

I'm also unsure what your comments have to do with the word definition of 'devaluation', but you appear to remain caught up on a belief that devaluation just means 'has less value'. Which isn't what the word means in an economic context.

Nothing to do with 'worshipping money'.

Explain me what you mean by devaluation, then.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Explain me what you mean by devaluation, then.

I kinda already did, and it's not 'what I mean' by it...
To quote myself on two previous occasions;

You're conflating devaluation as an economic term with a more colloquial use of the word. Devaluation is where government policy is used to deliberately reduce the value of the country's monetary unit. The common example of this is where a country ties the value of their currency to a foreign currency. It is not merely an outcome of policy, but a deliberate engineering of it.

But in economics...regardless of whether you subscribe to Monetarist or Keynesian approaches, or something else entirely...devaluation of currency occurs as a deliberate act initiated by the state. In practical terms this almost always relates to a currency being pegged to a foreign currency. An example of this is the crawling peg instituted by Brazil late last millenium.

This is different to debasement, inflation, and deflation, all of which also have specific meanings in economics at a macro level (ie. unrelated to a Monetarist or Keynesian approach).
I'm more than happy to answer any questions on those comments, but that was me trying to explain to you the English language meaning of the word 'devaluation' in an economic (rather than common) sense.

 

[Estro Felino]

I kinda already did, and it's not 'what I mean' by it...
To quote myself on two previous occasions;





This is different to debasement, inflation, and deflation, all of which also have specific meanings in economics at a macro level (ie. unrelated to a Monetarist or Keynesian approach).
I'm more than happy to answer any questions on those comments, but that was me trying to explain to you the English language meaning of the word 'devaluation' in an economic (rather than common) sense.

Right, I checked the term on my macroeconomics book.
I thought in English there was not the term depreciation...ok.
Devaluation is when there is a state-controlled exchange regime...so it's clear that state that decides the exchange rates.


I was pointing out, by the way, that the EU is incredibly stingy and absolutely driven by supranational, financial forces.
Do you agree with that, at least?

I was not arguing about the term...but about the issue with the EU printing euros to help Ukrainians.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Right, I checked the term on my macroeconomics book.
I thought in English there was not the term depreciation...ok.
Devaluation is when there is a state-controlled exchange regime...so it's clear that state that decides the exchange rates.


I was pointing out, by the way, that the EU is incredibly stingy and absolutely driven by supranational, financial forces.
Do you agree with that, at least?

I was not arguing about the term...but about the issue with the EU printing euros to help Ukrainians.

Honestly, I'm not sure it's worth us getting into it.

Printing money is not going to work, and the fact that the money is being sent interntationally to Ukraine doesn't matter. It's in circulation, and indeed would likely be used with EU client states to procure materials and services.
My initial comments were that you can print money, but it would likely lead to hyperinflation or extreme currency debasement, and I'd stand by that.

Should the EU assist Ukraine to a level greater than they are currently? Perhaps, yes.
Can this be done in ways that have less likely negative impact on their monetary unit? Yep.
Do I trust the EU as a moral arbiter? Nup.

 

[Estro Felino]

Honestly, I'm not sure it's worth us getting into it.

Printing money is not going to work, and the fact that the money is being sent interntationally to Ukraine doesn't matter. It's in circulation, and indeed would likely be used with EU client states to procure materials and services.
My initial comments were that you can print money, but it would likely lead to hyperinflation or extreme currency debasement, and I'd stand by that.

Should the EU assist Ukraine to a level greater than they are currently? Perhaps, yes.
Can this be done in ways that have less likely negative impact on their monetary unit? Yep.
Do I trust the EU as a moral arbiter? Nup.

Yes, and that was my point: yours is a Monetarist approach.

Extreme currency debasement, a slight inflation is surely not something disastrous. There are the adjustments in the long run the Keynesian model speaks of.
Back to the topic, the EU has never cared about the European peoples' plight.
It's Germany, Poland, Italy who welcome Ukrainian refugees, with their own national money.

The EU is a banking dictatorial body. There's no sentiment or feeling within it.

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, and that was my point: yours is a Monetarist approach.

Extreme currency debasement, a slight inflation is surely not something disastrous. There are the adjustments in the long run the Keynesian model speaks of.
Back to the topic, the EU has never cared about the European peoples' plight.
It's Germany, Poland, Italy who welcome Ukrainian refugees, with their own national money.

The EU is a banking dictatorial body. There's no sentiment or feeling within it.

You might find this interesting and more factual

The impact of a full-scale war on the migration of Ukrainian people: how the scale of displacement is assessed by the state of Ukraine and international organizations

 

[Estro Felino]

The impact of a full-scale war on the migration of Ukrainian people: how the scale of displacement is assessed by the state of Ukraine and international organization

Quite interesting, yes. Nevertheless this thread is about how the Ukrainian army is really suffering, and the best we can do is to try to achieve peace, and in the meantime to help Ukrainian civilians and soldiers.

 

[ChristineM]

Quite interesting, yes. Nevertheless this thread is about how the Ukrainian army is really suffering, and the best we can do is to try to achieve peace, and in the meantime to help Ukrainian civilians and soldiers.

Yet you are the one bringing refugees in to the thread

Back to the topic, the EU has never cared about the European peoples' plight.
It's Germany, Poland, Italy who welcome Ukrainian refugees, with their own national money.

so i thought I'd help you.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yes, and that was my point: yours is a Monetarist approach.

I'm really not sure what your point is at this stage. But...to again quote myself;

As a sidenote, and despite what you think, I'm neither a 'pure' Monetarist nor a Keynesian. As an Australian, it's easy for me to see the benefits and the costs of deliberate increased government spending during recent pandemic crisis, as a simple example. My belief is that how the money is spent is important. So I'm not of the belief that 'any stimulus is good stimulus'. Nor do I think 'any stimulus leads to rampant inflation'. However, that makes NO difference to what devaluation is in economic terms.

Extreme currency debasement, a slight inflation is surely not something disastrous. There are the adjustments in the long run the Keynesian model speaks of.

You sound like a true believer. Perhaps that's why you're determined to put me in the opposite camp.

Back to the topic, the EU has never cared about the European peoples' plight.
It's Germany, Poland, Italy who welcome Ukrainian refugees, with their own national money.

You seem to have an issue with the EU, in terms of an adminstrative organisation. Fair enough. But the EU is also used as an amalgamation for the countries which form it. So you're perhaps suggesting that the people of the EU care more for Ukranian refugees than the EU administration. I'm sure that would be true.

The EU is a banking dictatorial body. There's no sentiment or feeling within it.

We've been around the loop on your views regarding banking previously. I don't look to adminstrators and bankers for feelings.