Was America ever great?

[suncowiam]

At least we didn't have slavery and people had a chance to make a living.

I don't know what to say SF.

I and all my family have been able to make a decent living here.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

My puter dosent seem to rid of these things. Its like tribbles or something. =0)




I not too sure the federal government was orginally designed to operate in the manner as it's doing now.

Did you know the federal government was first created by the states?




http://history-world.org/united_states_government.htm

The problem is that an increasing centralized govt seems to be stripping and chipping away more and more states rights away as each year passes by as it gets bigger and bigger and more bloated.

I honestly don't care much about what the founders intended this country to be in the first place, and sticking to it, because they obviously didn't intend for people like me to have the same rights as them and probably owned some of my ancestors. I'm happy not to be stuck in the 18th century.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't know what to say SF.

I and all my family have been able to make a decent living here.

Good for you.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I honestly don't care much about what the founders intended this country to be in the first place, and sticking to it, because they obviously didn't intend for people like me to have the same rights as them and probably owned some of my ancestors. I'm happy not to be stuck in the 18th century.

True. One of the reasons why I started the thread. America certainly has some dirty laundry that can't be disputed. The treatment of Native peoples and African people, even women, can be construed as being very dark and hard times.

Even with an eruption of civil war, our history is filled with atrocities and tragedy that people don't like talking about. It's hard to see any greatness in any shared sense of the word.

While positive inroads have been made, it seems one step foreword in one respect, two steps back in others.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

We hear so much banter and rhetoric about making America great again as a country, but tell me, based on past to present throughout the history of the country, was there really ever any period of "greatness" that can be pointed out as an example?

This will sound obtuse but could you point to examples of 'greatness' in other nations?
My suspicion is that the US has had it's periods, but knowing what you consider 'great' would help me better respond.

 

[LuisDantas]

We hear so much banter and rhetoric about making America great again as a country, but tell me, based on past to present throughout the history of the country, was there really ever any period of "greatness" that can be pointed out as an example?

Hopefully not.

The appeal of the idea of "A Great America" is in that it is an extremely vague idea that is understood by various people in clashing ways. Most, perhaps all of those conceptions are ultimately shameful, hopelessly adolescent, or both.

What would constitute "greatness"? Unchallenged military supremacy? Consolidated chauvinism? Being lucky enough to reap the economic fruits of some other people's efforts - which is to say, being a succesfull exploiter? Living under an authoritatian government that believes in the power of propaganda?

It doesn't help that the very name reeks of nationalism.

 

[Sunstone]

I tend to agree with whoever said a nation or a societies' greatness is more properly measured by how it treats the least of its people.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have, actually. I won't pretend it was an exhaustive search, I did not scour the globe or what not, but I gave it an hour and could not find any examples of someone basing the argument of marijuana legalization on the notion of states' rights or such.

Here's one from a not so 10th Amendment friendly source...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/14/marijuana-policy-white-house-states-rights_n_5586188.html

But I admit that this isn't in the news much.
One hears about it more in those crazy libertarian sources.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hopefully not.

The appeal of the idea of "A Great America" is in that it is an extremely vague idea that is understood by various people in clashing ways. Most, perhaps all of those conceptions are ultimately shameful, hopelessly adolescent, or both.

What would constitute "greatness"? Unchallenged military supremacy? Consolidated chauvinism? Being lucky enough to reap the economic fruits of some other people's efforts - which is to say, being a succesfull exploiter? Living under an authoritatian government that believes in the power of propaganda?

It doesn't help that the very name reeks of nationalism.

Geeze, Negative Nellie....."adolescent"?
Can't "greatness" be the occasional great & difficult task achieved, eg, stopping the Japs & the Huns in WW2?
We weren't that great a military power at the time, & had to work hard to become one, lest Hitler & Tojo take over.
Evil though we be in the eyes of many, I say it's great that these larger evils were stopped.

 

[Palehorse]

Don't forget our founding fathers came here. Seen all the Natives that inhabited the land. Then said "We will call this land America." They then started conquering the savages. But some made friends with the Natives. Those people are reffered to as Native Americans. But in reality, Americans pay taxes some don't. Some Natives have their own land here in America. We call their land reservations.

 

[LuisDantas]

Geeze, Negative Nellie....."adolescent"?
Can't "greatness" be the occasional great & difficult task achieved,

It conceivably could.

But please notice that a democratic society is by its very nature utterly divided. Perhaps even more so when libertarian ideals bloom. It is no coincidence that it is mainly fascists and demagogues longing for a "return to greatness", in America or anywhere else.

Great, difficult tasks are just that - greatly difficult to complete. They are simply not likely to be fulfilled by divided communities such as democracies. Certainly not as a regular feature of their way of living. There is a reason why Sweden does not make the news very often.

It is not impossible for a free society to achieve greatness, but odds are that it will be a fleeting moment or else the start of a repressive state.

The third way i can think of, a society so darned engaged in social awareness as to be bold and educate its people to the point of true greatness, is all but impossible to keep consistently, because people just won't agree to keep it that way. It is particularly difficult when there is much internal economic disparity, which always results in mistrust and bitter feelings.

eg, stopping the Japs & the Huns in WW2?

Honest opinion? That is not a good example. At all.

We weren't that great a military power at the time, & had to work hard to become one, lest Hitler & Tojo take over.
Evil though we be in the eyes of many, I say it's great that these larger evils were stopped.

I guess you do. But see what that brought us: endless atomic fear, tyrannies real and potential that threaten to use them, and the pitt of military industry.

It seems to me that it is not even clear that it was a good thing at all.

 

[Revoltingest]

It conceivably could.

But please notice that a democratic society is by its very nature utterly divided. Perhaps even more so when libertarian ideals bloom. It is no coincidence that it is mainly fascists and demagogues longing for a "return to greatness", in America or anywhere else.

Political thugs are always using positive sounding words to justify something heinous.
This is irrelevant to the question of whether we've ever achieved greatness.

Great, difficult tasks are just that - greatly difficult to complete. They are simply not likely to be fulfilled by divided communities such as democracies. Certainly not as a regular feature of their way of living. There is a reason why Sweden does not make the news very often.

It is not impossible for a free society to achieve greatness, but odds are that it will be a fleeting moment or else the start of a repressive state.

The third way i can think of, a society so darned engaged in social awareness as to be bold and educate its people to the point of true greatness, is all but impossible to keep consistently, because people just won't agree to keep it that way. It is particularly difficult when there is much internal economic disparity, which always results in mistrust and bitter feelings.
Honest opinion? That is not a good example. At all.

Opinions will vary, but I say the net benefit of Americastan being top dog instead of Hitler is a great thing.
And I understand that he was eyeing Brazil.

I guess you do. But see what that brought us: endless atomic fear, tyrannies real and potential that threaten to use them, and the pitt of military industry.
It seems to me that it is not even clear that it was a good thing at all.

Do you think fear would've been less in a world where Hitler reigned supreme?
I don't.
Greatness is fleeting rather than perfect.
But it exists nonetheless.

 

[Valjean]

I see greatness as ensuring the greatest happiness, security and prosperity for the greatest number, by our own effort, not by exploiting some other tribe.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'll add another moment of greatness.....
When the USSC ruled that gay marriage is constitutionally protected.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

It conceivably could.

But please notice that a democratic society is by its very nature utterly divided. Perhaps even more so when libertarian ideals bloom. It is no coincidence that it is mainly fascists and demagogues longing for a "return to greatness", in America or anywhere else.

Great, difficult tasks are just that - greatly difficult to complete. They are simply not likely to be fulfilled by divided communities such as democracies. Certainly not as a regular feature of their way of living. There is a reason why Sweden does not make the news very often.

It is not impossible for a free society to achieve greatness, but odds are that it will be a fleeting moment or else the start of a repressive state.

The third way i can think of, a society so darned engaged in social awareness as to be bold and educate its people to the point of true greatness, is all but impossible to keep consistently, because people just won't agree to keep it that way. It is particularly difficult when there is much internal economic disparity, which always results in mistrust and bitter feelings.



Honest opinion? That is not a good example. At all.



I guess you do. But see what that brought us: endless atomic fear, tyrannies real and potential that threaten to use them, and the pitt of military industry.

It seems to me that it is not even clear that it was a good thing at all.

I will point out that the American effort in World War II required a unified commitment toward a singular goal: defeating the separate but related enemies of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. This was accomplished, and that was a mark of greatness. The rebuilding of our former enemies and their demilitarization was another great achievement.

Yes, the other things that have come out of World War II--the cold war, US supporting dictatorships, were not so great things. But there have been other great accomplishments as well. And one must remember that during WWII, the US was not much of a democracy, and many ills were done in the process...

Back to the idea from the OP, what is this greatness of America that demagogues like Trump want to restore? The achievements of WWII or whatever else one wants to focus on depends heavily on there being a clear target or goal in mind. We don't have a clear goal, a clear enemy...so let's create one so that we will have something to work towards or against. Lately, it's been liberals here in the US, and immigrants and refugees elsewhere...except for the liberals, who are targeting the rich and conservatives...

 

[LuisDantas]

I'll add another moment of greatness.....
When the USSC ruled that gay marriage is constitutionally protected.

Fair point. But it seems to me that the true achievement is the growing acceptance among the masses.

 

[LuisDantas]

Political thugs are always using positive sounding words to justify something heinous.
This is irrelevant to the question of whether we've ever achieved greatness.

But the reverse is not true. "Greatness" as a goal is useful as bait for demagogues... and pretty much lacks any positive uses.

Opinions will vary, but I say the net benefit of Americastan being top dog instead of Hitler is a great thing.

It would, were it not for the price paid.

And I understand that he was eyeing Brazil.

To this day there are those who accuse the USA of having faked the submarine sinkings that are attributed to Nazi Germany and are understood to have caused Brazil's participation in WW2.

Do you think fear would've been less in a world where Hitler reigned supreme?
I don't.
Greatness is fleeting rather than perfect.
But it exists nonetheless.

Hitler was evil. Which is to say, he would unavoidably succumb under his own weight.

By emulating his military ways we legitimated him to some extent, and extended his bloody legacy.

 

[Shimi]

Yes. When it was inhabited by Native Americans.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This will sound obtuse but could you point to examples of 'greatness' in other nations?
My suspicion is that the US has had it's periods, but knowing what you consider 'great' would help me better respond.

I suppose an individual sense of liberty and happiness are among the primary definitions as to what qualifies as greatness. You make a good point though by which the standards of "greatness" can be subjective depending upon who you ask. Greatness can be hard to define.

America also had been called, "The Great Experiment." so there must have been a particular quality that drew in so many immigrants from around the world, which to me, would define that quality of greatness by which people were attracted enough so as to make a permanent life here.

 

[Revoltingest]

But the reverse is not true. "Greatness" as a goal is useful as bait for demagogues... and pretty much lacks any positive uses.

So claims of reinvigorating "greatness" can be misused.
Anything can be misused.
Meh.

It would, were it not for the price paid.

Do you believe the price was too high, ie, that we should've let Hitler & Tojo continue as they were?

To this day there are those who accuse the USA of having faked the submarine sinkings that are attributed to Nazi Germany and are understood to have caused Brazil's participation in WW2.

There are many conspiracy theories about the great Satan (Americastan).
When you find a credible one, then I'll take it seriously.

Hitler was evil. Which is to say, he would unavoidably succumb under his own weight.

But at what cost to those he murdered & subjugated?

By emulating his military ways we legitimated him to some extent, and extended his bloody legacy.

So you think Americastan is a continuation of Nazi Germany?
Oh, dear.