Was Earth Flat?

[PureX]

You can use the word 'earth' to mean ground and in that sense the 'earth' can be flat. I can accept poetic descriptions of the Earth as having foundations and corners and not insist that such language necessitates the belief in a literal flat Earth. But the authors of the Hebrew Bible clearly believed their descriptions of the Earth were more than poetic because everyone in the Near East believed as they did; in a flat Earth covered by a solid firmament under and over which the sun and moon traversed. This model is wrong and we know it is wrong. There is no 'perspective' where that model has any basis in truth and I have no interest in post-modernist sophistry that wants to claim that fact is but a mere matter of narrative.

They "believed" what they imagined to be so because they had no evidence to the contrary. That isn't stupid or foolish or dishonest of them. I think it would be stupid and foolish and dishonest of us to denigrate them for it just because we think we know better. Especially when "better" is completely relative. The Earth is many things and it's spherical shape is just one relatively minor detail. It's a confluence of dynamic forces happening in space resulting in a spectacularly hospitable place for life to flourish. And not just life, but consciousness. The fact that it appears spherical is not especially pertinent to it's essential nature.

The ancients did not know about germ theory so by your reasoning our modern ideas about one of the major causes of disease are but mere bias of the current era. Yes, obviously, our perceptions of what is true is determined by our historical contexts, but that does not mean all perceptions are equally good. Reality is not determined by context.

Our reality is determined by context. In fact, our reality is quite literally the conceptual context into which we seek to fit all of our existential experiences. 'Reality' other than that contextual paradigm is beyond our comprehension. So I would have to ask you, "good compared to what?" What actual harm is befalling someone who is choosing to conceptualize the Earth as a flattened disc? Especially if that someone chooses to live 'locally' as most people did in ancient times? The Amish, for example. Do they believe the Earth is flat? I don't know, but I don't see how it would matter much, to them or to anyone. They would still build their barns square and strong. And plow their fields strait and true. And raise their animals with an honest concern for their well-being. And the Earth would reward them, regardless of it's geometric shape.

As I said multiple times in this discussion. Everyone in the Near East believed in a flat Earth cosmology at that time. Heck, the Chinese held to a flat Earth until the 17th century. Just because the Hellenistic world figured it out does not mean everyone else did.

Relative to nearly every aspect of life on the Earth, it's being perceived of as being flat was both logical and functional. So it held.

 

[PureX]

Point being that it's the perspective of primitive people, not a deity. Of course the earth appears flat on average to the ancient shepherd. Of course it feels immobile and affixed. Of course it appears that the sun and stars are revolving about it.

It didn't just "appear" that way to them, it WAS that way to them.

As to what the perspective of any 'deity' might be, that depends on what idea of 'deity' we're referring to. Again, it all depends on the context.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Was Earth Flat?

No.

And no matter what anyone tells you this photo is a fake.

View attachment 65923

Optimistic frubal given because I want to believe! So I guess I am the optimistic one

 

[Subduction Zone]

How local? For a 6ft tall person the horizon is just over 3 miles away.

Hmm, I might have to check that out if I ever get back to the Fargo/Moorhead region. If you were brought up there you might a have a reasonable reason to believe in a Flat Earth.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It didn't just "appear" that way to them, it WAS that way to them.

I don't see a distinction there. To say that the earth appeared flat to them is to say that that is what they believed to be true, that their mental maps contained a flat earth. However, even though they believed that, it was not correct. It may be the way it was (or appeared) to them, but not the way it was.

As to what the perspective of any 'deity' might be, that depends on what idea of 'deity' we're referring to.

How about an omniscient one that generates revelation, the kind most RF theists believe in and discuss? My comment might not pertain to Ares, who might also have thought that the world was flat if he couldn't get more perspective on how the world looks than one can get from Mt. Olympus.

 

[ChristineM]

Hmm, I might have to check that out if I ever get back to the Fargo/Moorhead region. If you were brought up there you might a have a reasonable reason to believe in a Flat Earth.

I used an online calculator but its an effect I've seen regularly when we lived near the coast and watched ship's disappear. See the rigging of gas rigs 15 miles out but not the platforms. And sight a flat wall level with the horizon you can actually see the curvature of the ocean.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I used an online calculator but its an effect I've seen regularly when we lived near the coast and watched ship's disappear. See the rigging of gas rigs 15 miles out but not the platforms. And sight a flat wall level with the horizon you can actually see the curvature of the ocean.

Sounds like the Fargo Moorhead area. I worked there for the Minnesota Geological survey one year. We would accurately mark the location of water wells on maps and then later the info was transferred to a computer data base. While looking for a place we asked some locals after telling who and what we were doing. They gave us directions along with the claim that it was "on top of the hill". Which we thought was odd. So off we went. As we sped past one place I had to hit the brakes and pointed out that had to be the place. It was on a tiny rise that was 1.5 meters higher than anywhere else. For as far as you could see it was the highest point around. The topographic maps of the area had 5 foot contours and often there was only one line wandering back and forth. The elevation was noted in feet in the center of each mile by mile section. And that usually varied by only a foot or two at the most. It is the flattest place that I have ever been.

 

[PureX]

I don't see a distinction there. To say that the earth appeared flat to them is to say that that is what they believed to be true, that their mental maps contained a flat earth. However, even though they believed that, it was not correct. It may be the way it was (or appeared) to them, but not the way it was.

What they "believed" isn't particularly relevant. Just as what we believe, now, isn't particularly relevant, either. What is relevant is that their experience of the Earth was 'flat', all the time. Our experience of the Earth is also 'flat', most of the time, but not all the time. So our conception of the Earth has become more complex. In the future, peoples experience of the Earth will still mostly be 'flat', as it is now, but will also become even more holistic and complex than it is, now. And our "beliefs" will reflect that. It's already happening.

The Earth is phenomena. We experience that phenomena within the context of our own humanity, and it changes us (and we it). It's an interactive dynamic.

 

[Colt]

Let's extend your thinking a bit. The following must also be true if your words are:

Because ideas of theism cannot ever be proven, then only two answers are possible:
1. God doesn't exist,
2. we do not know.
This means, that God cannot exist.

Therefore, since neither the existence nor the nonexistence of a god has been proven, God must and cannot exist.

"Reductio ad absurdum, a Latin expression that literally means 'reduction to absurdity' [snip] starts by assuming as hypothetical the veracity or falsity of the thesis of the proposition to be demonstrated and, through a concatenation of valid logical inferences, it is intended to reach a logical contradiction, an absurdity. If a contradiction is reached, it is concluded that the starting hypothesis (which had been assumed to be true at the beginning) must be false (or vice versa)."



If they believe in 2022 that the earth is flat, they're "crazy" (not tethered to reality). I suspect most don't believe it and are hostile to science, and are just being contrarian. But the ones who actually believe that one can sail off of the edge of a flat planet are crazy.

Here's an interesting observation. Sam Harris said, "George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and Christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd."



Therefore, if questfortruth says the Bible is not wrong, the Bible is wrong.



Here's another one of those enigmas believer wrestle with that the skeptic easily dispatches. Solution: no gods were involved, wrote anything, or thought anything, and primitive man guessed incorrectly.



The Bible also points to a god. And a firmament.



You responded to @cOLTER 's , "man didn't know any better when he wrote Genesis." The problem here is that the believer at once wants us to believe that the Christian Bible is the word of an eternal, omniscient deity AND that of primitive men who didn't know yet where the rain came from. The skeptic understands that it is the latter, and only the latter. Where's the part that looks like something primitive man couldn't have written?



Point being that it's the perspective of primitive people, not a deity. Of course the earth appears flat on average to the ancient shepherd. Of course it feels immobile and affixed. Of course it appears that the sun and stars are revolving about it.



Agreed, but surprised to see it from a believer. Like others, you're making the same case that the humanist makes. The Bible shows the naturalistic evolution of culture and morality from the pre-Roman Old Testament, when the Hebrews were continually at war and worshiped a warrior god that smote its enemies with an angry vengeance just like them, to a different world, Pax Romana, and multiculturalism. Now, they did commerce with gentiles, and their god evolved to reflect that gentler, less martial existence. And now we jump ahead two more millennia and find that Christianity has adapted and continues t adapt to our modern world, one that often finds hell theology off putting, just as some marketing logos have had to update their appearance to reflect more modern sensibilities (Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben stopped looking like slaves or domestic servants). This is all very naturalistic.

Religion in any culture is first a pursuit of values and second a system of interpretive beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Holy crap!! The OP was right:

 

[Suave]

Because ideas of Atheism cannot ever be proven, then only two answers are possible:
1. God exists,
2. we do not know.
This means, that God must exist.

Any brain is more complex than the Universe. Hence, if Bob feels or thinks something, it surely can be a real thing because his brain is more important than the entire Universe.
For example, many say that Earth is not a globe but a flat disk. Why? People are not crazy.
The planet was a flat disk in the past, and people feel it through the "genetic memory" or "ancestorial memory."
More in:
Was Earth Flat?

The official list of dogmas is Absolute Knowledge for theists. One dogma is: True Church's interpretation of Bible is true.
The Church dogmas are a fixed reference points. This means, that if John says that Bible is wrong, the Bible is not wrong, but John is blaspheming religion. Earth was Flat.

God is Omnipotent. He changed flat disk into globe while Great Flood. OK?

cOLTER: "If flat earth or the Israelites vastly exaggerated flood story wasn't in the Bible, then people would dismiss the stories as silly myths."
Now in 2022AD it is better? Book told people of BC era that Earth is Flat to be taken seriously. But does God considered that the Book will be read in AD era, on 2022 AD? What about us? Paradox. The solution: Earth was flat. Now it is not flat. Miracle.

Around 240 B.C., the Greek astronomer Eratosthenes determined the angular difference between shadows casted by the Sun during noon of the summer solstice at Syene and Alexandria to be about 7°. He had the distance between Alexandria and Syene measured to be around 500 miles (805 km). he then figured the ratio of the angular difference in the shadows to the number of degrees in a circle (360°) must equal the ratio of distance to the Earth's circumference resulting in an estimated 25,000 miles (40,000km)

 

[Subduction Zone]

Around 240 B.C., the Greek astronomer Eratosthenes determined the angular difference between shadows casted by the Sun during noon of the summer solstice at Syene and Alexandria to be about 7°. He had the distance between Alexandria and Syene measured to be around 500 miles (805 km). he then figured the ratio of the angular difference in the shadows to the number of degrees in a circle (360°) must equal the ratio of distance to the Earth's circumference resulting in an estimated 25,000 miles (40,000km)

To be honest only two points on the Earth just measures it if it is a sphere. They already knew that the Earth was a sphere from other evidence. To points on the Earth if it is flat can be used to calculate how far away the sun is. But if the Earth is a sphere and you have three points on a line with angles to the Sun that can be used to disprove a Flat Earth and confirm a round Earth.

 

[Suave]

To be honest only two points on the Earth just measures it if it is a sphere. They already knew that the Earth was a sphere from other evidence. To points on the Earth if it is flat can be used to calculate how far away the sun is. But if the Earth is a sphere and you have three points on a line with angles to the Sun that can be used to disprove a Flat Earth and confirm a round Earth.

I've done a simple experiment proving the Earth's nearly spherical shape and size.

I've calculated the Earth's circumference by observing and measuring the North Star's angle of view from my horizon with a clinometer at 46 degrees latitude and then comparing Polaris' angle of view from my horizon at 43 degrees latitude. Using an odometer, I measured the 200 miles of distance I traveled north to south on I-29 between 46 and 43 degrees latitude.
I then took the 200 miles distance difference and divided it by the 3 degrees latitude difference and calculated 66.666 miles per 1 degree of distance. Then I multiplied 66.666 miles * 360 to calculate the Earth's circumference to be around 24,000 miles.

 

[Glaurung]

They "believed" what they imagined to be so because they had no evidence to the contrary. That isn't stupid or foolish or dishonest of them. I think it would be stupid and foolish and dishonest of us to denigrate them for it just because we think we know better. Especially when "better" is completely relative.

You're arguing against claims I've never made. I did not say the ancient Hebrews were stupid, foolish or dishonest. I've said that their cosmology was wrong and that we do know better about a whole host of things including the shape of the planet and the nature of the physical cosmos beyond it. It is not relative, it is the objective fact of the matter that the Earth is not a flat disk.

The Earth is many things and it's spherical shape is just one relatively minor detail.

I think the Earth's shape is actually a rather important detail. I think the truth of matters is an important detail. I think humans can come to accurate knowledge of the world around them. That yes, we do know better than the ancients.

It's a confluence of dynamic forces happening in space resulting in a spectacularly hospitable place for life to flourish. And not just life, but consciousness. The fact that it appears spherical is not especially pertinent to it's essential nature.

You can wax poetic all you like you still won't be saying anything meaningful in my view. The Earth is spherical. We know it is spherical. And ancient cosmologies which believed otherwise were wrong. No amount of verbose prattle about consciousness changes the facts of the matter. The Earth is a spherical and it revolves around the sun, get over it.

What actual harm is befalling someone who is choosing to conceptualize the Earth as a flattened disc? Especially if that someone chooses to live 'locally' as most people did in ancient times? The Amish, for example. Do they believe the Earth is flat? I don't know, but I don't see how it would matter much, to them or to anyone. They would still build their barns square and strong. And plow their fields strait and true. And raise their animals with an honest concern for their well-being. And the Earth would reward them, regardless of it's geometric shape.

I see great harm in the mindset you advocate. A denial of truth itself. Seeking to have our beliefs reflect the true state of things as much as possible is important. To deny the shape of the planet is to effectively deny the whole scientific endeavor. I find that genuinely offensive.

Relative to nearly every aspect of life on the Earth, it's being perceived of as being flat was both logical and functional. So it held.

And it's wrong.

 

[ppp]

Because ideas of Atheism cannot ever be proven,

There is nothing about atheism that needs to be proved.
Theist: Some god exists.
Atheist: I am unconvinced.

The End.

 

[rational experiences]

The human theist knew space was a burnt out removed once existing mass. Now nothing. To a human nothing means the past term. As everything exists

We are innate exact conscious.

Infinite nothingness he said is a thin flat plane only. Only owning its body type as a mass of nothingness.

Infinite he gives 0 in thought 0 is just a circle and not a mass.

As in thought mass he states is just contained energy as the sphere. What science wants the mind says my equals answer only.

Conditioned consciousness as the false thinker theist gets conditioned in mind status. As he bares earths ground mass of its held contained water mass. As a sphere over his head.

Knowing garden position in that thought hadn't existed. In reality science it means burnt out carbon.

The direct line trajected human thought want only.

As water mass also disappears into underground sink holes..
Recombusting eating of earths body mass as plate mass carpenter tectonic. Above ground mass thins.

We know consciousness was always as a human exact psychic innate terms taught by presence... very aware.

As we had in fact come out of the eternal highest being position. As first type of humans consciousness plus body. Consciousness proves it itself.

So life is water in biology and we get warned. We fight for family unity as we already know. As if any human use of words was never said before. You couldn't speak today.

You use words remaking then forming words by word use as a self..... Just a human.

I was taught I don't own the realisations words family always had. Didn't self idolise as taught. As it's all been said before. So no human is special. We are just aware.

No human is extra special you only believe you are.

Therefore a caused human flat plane thinker.

Knows all gases are thin. So what space a gas is already is owned by the gas. Thin plane space filled up from empty. Taught science. No infinite in our heavens.

So we own no space.

Scientist says but I want to measure by numbers a count of not held mass. In nothingness.

As mass O is sphere held energy not any number count. O held. Just zero mass said science.

As it sits in space too.

So applied counting using infinite as if it could add up the infinite also.

As he wants unlimited.... Meaning science wants to break infinite law as natural space void vacuum.

By a machine.

Claiming I want the flat plane. Infinite the eternity of it.

It's just a humans conscious confession.

Science wanted to own and control it he said. Manipulate spaces opening.

To have access to everything in it.

So then he starts confessing... so now I think we'll also shift a universal dimension then.

As I believe I can destroy our universe by man with machine on earth. If I break to infer I can control vacuum... Infinite.

Controlling vacuum voiding Infinite law myself. Just a human inside a no space atmosphere that only spirit owns. Gases by law. Not mass.

Overcoming all I believe is gods other types. Knowing I said void vacuum not a God man science terms but woman mother of God. Who holds scattered mass energy freed already also.

Part of the thesis O to free energy from O gods zero mass held sphere.. by flat plane circle. Already is in infinite.

Man of science theories about that position yet was never involved in why it exists as that body type.

I believe in my own man sacrificed destruction. Yet I believe the mother vacuum will replace me...in a space shift of our mass into the Infinite.

Is just a special way of claiming I tried to blow earth mass back by inventive time shift my reaction into my dust position thesis. The only type of mass I personally want in humans new sciences.

Agrees hence I personally began as dust.

And not from a bio ovary human life in a water position that was never left.

As the topic human mother father was never the human scientist himself whose coercing destruction of earth.

Claiming our biology left sea water is a human science memory only about the nuclear salting of our bio life that was stopped and we survived the Bio cell mutated attack.

In just consciousness of humans memories.

Why the healer human was in Fact a teacher against the scientist.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I've done a simple experiment proving the Earth's nearly spherical shape and size.

I've calculated the Earth's circumference by observing and measuring the North Star's angle of view from my horizon with a clinometer at 46 degrees latitude and then comparing Polaris' angle of view from my horizon at 43 degrees latitude. Using an odometer, I measured the 200 miles of distance I traveled north to south on I-29 between 46 and 43 degrees latitude.
I then took the 200 miles distance difference and divided it by the 3 degrees latitude difference and calculated 66.666 miles per 1 degree of distance. Then I multiplied 66.666 miles * 360 to calculate the Earth's circumference to be around 24,000 miles.

The problem is that if you only take two measurements, the angles that you took and the distance traveled. That info also tells you the height to the object you are looking at on a flat plane. To "prove" that it is flat or round you need another point and another angle. If the Earth is flat it will give the same height to the North Star. If the Earth is a globe it will give the same radius. For that sort of test three points are needed to confirm a model. The first two points only give you either a height or a circumference.

 

[questfortruth]

There is nothing about atheism that needs to be proved.
Theist: Some god exists.
Atheist: I am unconvinced.

The End.

It is artificial rule. Not logical rule. Who told you this rule? satan.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is artificial rule. Not logical rule. Who told you this rule? satan.

No. It is logical. What is illogical about that? It is illogical to believe something with sufficient evidence, Such as believing that a God exists.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Because ideas of Atheism cannot ever be proven, then only two answers are possible:
1. God exists,
2. we do not know.
This means, that God must exist.

Any brain is more complex than the Universe. Hence, if Bob feels or thinks something, it surely can be a real thing because his brain is more important than the entire Universe.
For example, many say that Earth is not a globe but a flat disk. Why? People are not crazy.
The planet was a flat disk in the past, and people feel it through the "genetic memory" or "ancestorial memory."
More in:
Was Earth Flat?

The official list of dogmas is Absolute Knowledge for theists. One dogma is: True Church's interpretation of Bible is true.
The Church dogmas are a fixed reference points. This means, that if John says that Bible is wrong, the Bible is not wrong, but John is blaspheming religion. Earth was Flat.

God is Omnipotent. He changed flat disk into globe while Great Flood. OK?

cOLTER: "If flat earth or the Israelites vastly exaggerated flood story wasn't in the Bible, then people would dismiss the stories as silly myths."
Now in 2022AD it is better? Book told people of BC era that Earth is Flat to be taken seriously. But does God considered that the Book will be read in AD era, on 2022 AD? What about us? Paradox. The solution: Earth was flat. Now it is not flat. Miracle.

The earth has never been flat. People back then thought the earth was flat, including some of the authors of the Bible. It is not a good idea to treat the Bible as if it is a science textbook.