Was Hitler Christian?

[Duck]

Would you have preferred if I asked 'Was Hitler Atheist'?

Not really, because at least in my mind, asking if someone who was responsible for such evil was a member of any particular group gives the impression that that person represents said group. When we look at Hitler's deeds anymore all we see is evil (or at least I do) so to associate him with any group (except for Nazis and neo-Nazis) by asking if he was a member (was he a _____?) allows people to target that group for, at the least, disapproval.

Let's say you don't like Pete Rose (the baseball player) because of the scandals involving betting from the 80's and the fallout of that. So, if you talk up how bad Pete Rose was because of these betting scandals, and people agree that he did bad things, when you say, oh, I heard he was working at company xx now. That will call into question, in the minds of your listeners, the integrity or honesty of company xx, simply through guilt by association. Regardless of the logical soundness of the arguments, and regardless of the facts involving company xx, the reputation of the organization will be affected by your actions and statements. Same thing happens here. It also calls into question whether you (as the original poster) have an agenda, or a grudge to bear against the organization used in the question.

I think a better way to phrase the question would be 'what were hitler's beliefs?' or 'was hitler a religious man?' Unless of course your purpose was to disparage christianity, which I doubt.

 

[dust1n]

I think a better way to phrase the question would be 'what were hitler's beliefs?' or 'was hitler a religious man?' Unless of course your purpose was to disparage christianity, which I doubt.

My mistake.

 

[logician]

So is it the proposition that we can discount the religious or non-religious belief of those who start wars as having no bearing on the decision?

 

[Duck]

So is it the proposition that we can discount the religious or non-religious belief of those who start wars as having no bearing on the decision?

I think that the religious (or non-religious) beliefs of a person certainly affect the decisions associated with starting or entering into a war.

I think that the core religious beliefs (I am going to lump in non-religiousness here as well) of a person influence many, if not all, decisions made by that person, and certainly would influence a national leader regarding warfare.

My primary objection to the wording of the OP was the implicit association of Hitler (and all of the negative connotations that go with his name, much less actions) with a particular religion, in this case christianity. I think that discussing Hitler's personal philosophies and beliefs is important, to try and understand the mental gymnastics that allowed him to do and order the things that happened in Nazi Germany, and to prevent those things from happening ever again. I think that the wording of the OP, as I mentioned above, seemed more accusatory than it was intended to be. That is all. I think that the general topic of Hitler's religious beliefs is worthy of discussion.

I also think that the general topic of religious beliefs and warfare are also worthy of discussion.

 

[logician]

I think that the religious (or non-religious) beliefs of a person certainly affect the decisions associated with starting or entering into a war.

I think that the core religious beliefs (I am going to lump in non-religiousness here as well) of a person influence many, if not all, decisions made by that person, and certainly would influence a national leader regarding warfare.

My primary objection to the wording of the OP was the implicit association of Hitler (and all of the negative connotations that go with his name, much less actions) with a particular religion, in this case christianity. I think that discussing Hitler's personal philosophies and beliefs is important, to try and understand the mental gymnastics that allowed him to do and order the things that happened in Nazi Germany, and to prevent those things from happening ever again. I think that the wording of the OP, as I mentioned above, seemed more accusatory than it was intended to be. That is all. I think that the general topic of Hitler's religious beliefs is worthy of discussion.

I also think that the general topic of religious beliefs and warfare are also worthy of discussion.

WW2 did not happen in a vaccum. Germany was essentailly a Christian nation that went to hell in a handbasket. Of course, there were many forewarnings of problems long before Hitler came into power, such as extreme systemic child abuse nationwide whose psychology transfered over to the Jews as being filth undeserving to live. Hitler and others simply codified this hatred into a mass hysteria to commit genocide against those they found "unfit".:sleep:

 

[Oberon]

WW2 did not happen in a vaccum. Germany was essentailly a Christian nation that went to hell in a handbasket.

The Nazi party was a profoundly anti-christian leftist party in which the state was the religion.

 

[Storm]

Okay, I guess I should have made it clear this was the question I was really interested in. No emulates Christ's teachings at all times. So then where do I draw the line? How many deeds have to be done to accompany the belief? How much sin makes someone no longer Christian?

Oh, I get ya.... Sorry for the rant.

 

[dogsgod]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1].


Hitler wrote:


"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."



Hitler was a fanatical believer in God and country[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Oberon]

.


Hitler wrote:


"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."



Hitler was a fanatical believer in God and country

It's called propaganda. The actions of a propaganda machine like the Nazi party speak louder than words. The Nazi party worked to stamp out christianity and start a new "church" which was entierly political:

According to this analysis, Nazism (like Soviet Communism) operated as a religious cult, generating fervent belief among its followers by adopting the rituals and liturgical practices of organized religion to appeal to a population in which Christianity was losing its hold. p. 47

In 1940, after the start of the war, Martin Bormann, at the time still Hess’s deputy as head of the Party Chancellery, ordered the end of all efforts to fuse Christianity with National Socialism in religious and ideological instruction in schools. “It will not be possible to create a Christian doctrine that would be completely compatible with the point of view of National Socialist ideology,” he wrote, “just as the communities of Christian faith would never be able to accept the ideology of National Socialism in its entirety.” p. 138




Stackleberg, R (2007). Routledge Companion to Nazi Germany. London: Routledge.

Also:

For a variety of resons National Socialism was bound to take an anti-Christian attitude. Not only did it reject the Jewish background of Christianity and of the Old Testament, but Christian ethics - compassion, charity, mercy- milllitated against the Nazi creed no less than against Marxism. " The author goes on to describe extensively Nazi descrimination against churches and christianity. This excerpt is from the book "Leftism" by Professor Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn.

Again- "The party member was expected as a matter of course to lead an exemplary family life, to send his children to the Hitler Youth, to sever active connections with the Church and to bring his family to the various national socialist ceremonies aimed, among others, at undermining religious allegiance by replacing its ritual" from "The Totalitarian Party: Party and People in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia" by Aryeh L. Unger, Senior Lecturer in Political Science at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem.


Some Hitler quotes you can check out online:

"




[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Night of 11th-12th July, 1941[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]10th October, 1941, midday[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]14th October, 1941, midday[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Christianity <is> the liar....[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]19th October, 1941, night[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]21st October, 1941, midday[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, *******? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]13th December, 1941, midnight[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]14th December, 1941, midday[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]9th April, 1942, dinner[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]27th February, 1942, midday[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)"[/FONT]

from Adolf Hitler, Christian, Atheist, or Neither

When it comes to understanding the beliefs of a man who used propaganda to achieve his ends, actions speak louder than words. The Nazi party discouraged church activity, and actively attempted to stamp out christianity from Germany.

 

[dogsgod]

.




"National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity....


For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life...



These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles!"






-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934 [Baynes]






.

 

[Oberon]

[Baynes]

You know what propaganda is, right? Are you denying that the Nazi party used it? The question is how did the actually TREAT religion under the regime. The answer is the persecuted churches, Nazi party members were expected not to go to church, they tried to unify the country under one political and atheistic "church," lead members of the party actively tried to stamp out religion, and so forth.

When you are dealing with a propaganda machine, quoting speeches doesn't provide evidence of anything.

 

[dogsgod]

.


If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbor, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians. For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work.


-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the "Old Guard" at Munich on 24 Feb. 1939





.

 

[love]

Since the criteria in the U.S. seems to be that if you profess to be a Christian, you are one, then yes, Hitler certainly was a Christian. Doesn't matter whether he knew the bible(which I think he did), or went to church.

I don't know what your crieria for being a Christian is but Hitler, one of the greatess mass murders of all time was not Christ like.

 

[Oberon]

.


If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbor, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians. For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work.


-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the "Old Guard" at Munich on 24 Feb. 1939





.

For someone who is so skeptical of sources, you show an incredible belief in the words of Hitler. Try examining the actions of the Nazi party with regard to Christianity or religion in general. Oh wait... that might actually challenge preconceived notions on your part. I know how much you hate that.

 

[dogsgod]

.






We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.




-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933







.

 

[Oberon]

.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

Yes, let's believe everything Adolf Hitler said in a public speech. Or, we can view the actions of the Nazi party, part of which I have outlined previously in this thread. They were thoroughly anti-religious. They wanted to establish a nation-wide state religion, one that was political and atheistic. Not christian. I have already quoted not only Nazi material but academic sources.

But dogsgod, by all means keep quoting one of the most recognized liars in recent history to support your view.

 

[dogsgod]

.


Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.




-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)




.

 

[AxisMundi]

I don't know what your crieria for being a Christian is but Hitler, one of the greatess mass murders of all time was not Christ like.

While Christians make up a majority of religion on the globe, the Christ-Like are an extreme rarity.

 

[Mr Cheese]

http://www.amazon.com/Theologians-Under-Hitler-Gerhard-Althaus/dp/0300029268


This is an in depth study of the work of three Protestant theologians who were supportive of the Nazi regime. The author contrasts them with Karl Barth, Rudolph Bultmann, Paul Tillich, and Dietrich Bonhoffer, all of whom opposed Hitler.

The introductory chapter entitled "The Crisis" is particularly valuable. It places the thought of all of these German theologians in the intellectual stream of Luther, the Enlightenment, German idealism, theories of history, and especially existentialism (Kierkegaard) and dialectical theology with its stress on the infinite distance between God and humans. This latter teaching creates a problem in conceptualizing how God's actions intersect with human history.
Ericksen highlights the irrational element in the prevailing intellectual cllimate of the time and documents the powerful influence of the concept of the German "Volk," especially in the theology of Hirsch.
Although the author agrees that in hindsight and on the basis of their actions we can distinguish between these three theologians and their counterparts who opposed Nazism, he is not certain that their theology alone accounts for for their welcoming of the Third Reich. It is just too similar to the theology of those who opposed Hitler. Nor is the author certain that this kind of theology could prevent a recurrance of the phenomenon of theologians supporting a totalitarian or dictatorial regime in some future time of crisis.
"The connecting link between the broader intellectual crisis of the twentieth century and the circumstances of modern theology is that both secular and religious intellectuals in this age must ultimately rely upon an existential leap of faith. This was the fate of Croce, Durkheim and Weber as well as Barth, Bultmann and Tillich. In terms of value judgments, the problem with existentialism is that it is morally neutral. A leap of faith towards Hitler is no less valid than a leap of faith away from him." (p. 24) All in all, Ericksen paints a thoughtful portrait of three brilliant and enigmatic theologians. He also gives us reason to question whether current theologians would do any better when faced with a similar crisis.
.............................................
as we can see

Pat robertson and fred phelps are christians

But so are thomas merton and st francis of assisi

as in hitler's times, as the above link tells there is a huge difference...

 

[AxisMundi]

Yes, let's believe everything Adolf Hitler said in a public speech. Or, we can view the actions of the Nazi party, part of which I have outlined previously in this thread. They were thoroughly anti-religious. They wanted to establish a nation-wide state religion, one that was political and atheistic. Not christian. I have already quoted not only Nazi material but academic sources.

But dogsgod, by all means keep quoting one of the most recognized liars in recent history to support your view.

If you are refering to your quotes from the book entitled "Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944" (published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc), one should note it wasn't published utill 1953, and by his enemies, not his allies. Therefor it is not a credible source.

And the NAZI party, and Hitler, were far from "atheistic".