Did you not read the OP? John 10:31-34
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Was Jesus a Mystic and Pantheist
- Thread starter The Hammer
- Start date
Did you not read the OP? John 10:31-34
More then I typically notice from members.
Not like I was asking this question to Christians or anything, even if not specifically stated
.Considering the opinion of an atheist on Jesus/Christianity isn't all that useful. I appreciate it, but it's not what I was looking for.
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Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
The whole creation reflects God.
I don't know what you mean. The image of God is inside me. It is a matter of whether at any time the animalistic part of me manifests more or the image of God manifests more.
Never mind. God can be infinite without the condition you describe, in my opinion. We are talking at each other, speaking a different language. Adios!
I thought I was being respectful and hopefully helpful to you. I meant no disrespect. Clearly, this is a very sensitive topic for you for you.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Thats not a valid analysis. Calling people gods does not mean anyone is calling people the creator god or or supreme god or anything of the nature. People deserving a position, respect, etc etc are called gods. Its just a reference of respect. Sometimes even a position. As in Moses was sent as a God to the pharaoh. That does not make Moses a God, it was his mission, his position.
That has nothing to do with a pantheon.
Sounds like idolatry. False idols.
Also, pantheism/panentheism has nothing to do with pantheons either.
Pantheism
"a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.
"
Panentheism
"the belief or doctrine that God is greater than the universe and includes and interpenetrates it."
rational experiences
Veteran Member
If scientists existing first natural spiritual human men decided on science the practice they did.
If you falsely + added as THE cross you would teach I cannot add onto any status already existing.
Otherwise your claim is I created everything myself then plus one more.
Not only did you theory the concept the origin motivation of man human was to apply minus.
Science maths the evil mistake of man.
The teaching. I sacrificed myself a long time ago by human chosen evil knowledge of. Science.
After and over a long time period I eventually healed as the man of science and remembered.
At the same time your brother still believed in maths science.
What would you do and say. Would you think my minus gas spirit now healed or would you know evolution of space cooling statuses allowed you to exist living again.
Would you falsify that maths Phi science had healed just because you remembered you had sacrificed your own life because of the practice.
Do you realise stories are a historical applied summation of a huge list of events not just about one man....or are you still too egotistical to realise that human status?
If you falsely + added as THE cross you would teach I cannot add onto any status already existing.
Otherwise your claim is I created everything myself then plus one more.
Not only did you theory the concept the origin motivation of man human was to apply minus.
Science maths the evil mistake of man.
The teaching. I sacrificed myself a long time ago by human chosen evil knowledge of. Science.
After and over a long time period I eventually healed as the man of science and remembered.
At the same time your brother still believed in maths science.
What would you do and say. Would you think my minus gas spirit now healed or would you know evolution of space cooling statuses allowed you to exist living again.
Would you falsify that maths Phi science had healed just because you remembered you had sacrificed your own life because of the practice.
Do you realise stories are a historical applied summation of a huge list of events not just about one man....or are you still too egotistical to realise that human status?
firedragon
Veteran Member
The Johannine verse you showed in the OP has nothing to do with pantheism or panentheism. This is just language.
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
You are taking this out of context. As Jesus himself said this was written in the Law.
Here is the quote:
"I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. 7 But you will die just as men do."-Psalm 86:6, 7.
Actually if you look at the beginning of that Psalm it says:
"God takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges." verse 1.
If you read the Psalm he is clearly referring to the judges, of Isreal, the older men that would sit at the city gate and judge matters for the people. Jesus did not think these people were "gods" in the sense that they were divine-like or supernatural. Jesus understood what that meant. That they were sitting in the position of God to judge.
So no, this is in no way making Jesus out to think that there is more than one true God.
Now the word "god" can have various meanings. The religious leaders of his day were trying to put him to death not because he claimed to be God, but because he claimed to be God's son, and he did claim to come from the realms above, and that he existed before Abraham did. But never did he lie. All these things were truth. And that is why he was hated by the religious leaders of the Jews. Because they hated truth and justice and righteousness.
firedragon
Veteran Member
No it's not. Its just the way language works. If you want to know what the Bible says about false idols, read Deuteronomy. I mean for simple, direct ideas.
Guys/Gals.... Pantheism and Panentheism doesn't mean there is more than one God. That's Polytheism. Why do peoe keep refuting the passage with "he didn't believe in gods".....
That isn't what pantheism means. See my previous definition.
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
I see what you're getting at. My mind was taking me to the idea of many gods, but pantheism is the belief of an impersonal God. The same line of reason would apply. In John 17 you can clearly see Jesus Christ praying to Jehovah God whom he considered to be very real and very personal. I would recommend you take the time to read that chapter. It also dispels any notion that God is part of a Trinity. As Jesus is clearly praying to his Father with different thoughts and a different will than that of Jesus.
In fact Jesus made the request of his Father that he not die the way he was about to die, but then added, "not as I will, but as you will." That is, Jesus was not going to do what his heart desired, but he was going to do what was the will of his Father in the heaven. Later on we are told in scripture that Jesus Christ learned obedience by the things he suffered. (Hebrews 5:8.)
firedragon
Veteran Member
Every Tom, dick, and Harry knows this.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
No, not necessarily.
Therefore pantheism should not be thought of as a single codifiable position. Rather it should be understood as a diverse family of distinct doctrines; many of whom would be surprised—and, indeed, disconcerted—to find themselves regarded as members of a single household.
....
Another notable pantheist to insist that the supreme being is personal was Gustav Fechner, who develops a form of panpsychism according to which all organised matter must be thought of as possessing its own inner life or soul. The more complex and developed its structure, the more sophisticated its spiritual life; from the lowest soul-life of plants, through our own mental life, which is just the inner side of our bodies, through the soul-life of the planets and stars up to the most developed spirit of all, God, the consciousness which corresponds to the most complex organism there is, the cosmos itself.
[etc]
Pantheism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
....
Another notable pantheist to insist that the supreme being is personal was Gustav Fechner, who develops a form of panpsychism according to which all organised matter must be thought of as possessing its own inner life or soul. The more complex and developed its structure, the more sophisticated its spiritual life; from the lowest soul-life of plants, through our own mental life, which is just the inner side of our bodies, through the soul-life of the planets and stars up to the most developed spirit of all, God, the consciousness which corresponds to the most complex organism there is, the cosmos itself.
[etc]
Pantheism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Sure, pantheism can do this as well. If you think about it logically even, if the pantheist sees that everything that exists is the Divine in form, and that we, as well as quite a number of other lifeforms are very personal (you can't really say a dog lacks personality, for instance), then clearly the Divine has personableness within its very being. If we are personal, and we are Divine itself as us, then clearly the Divine is personal.
Jesus praying to God, does not preclude a pantheist element to the Divine for him. Jesus did very much see God as Present within creation, so that tends to disagree with a traditional theistic view that God is wholly outside creation. For one example, "Thy will be done on earth", puts the Divine right here, doesn't it?
That doesn't cause any issue for a Trinitarian. Jesus had a dual nature, human and divine. Which by the way, is something some pantheists agree with as well. The human nature is our biological programming, the natural instincts and impulses and drives evolution has provided as a means of survival. The Divine nature, is that which we aspire towards, "above", the lower impulses or nature. "That which I would do, that thing I do not. That which I would not do, that thing I do", says the Apostle Paul.
That's the dual nature expressed right there. Jesus was fully human, and fully Divine, says the Trinitarian. But his Divine nature, was the Light of God itself, the Divine Logos itself, according to the author of John's gospel.
Yes, Jesus was fully human, and fully Divine. The human part of him had to learn to submit his earthly wills and desires to the Divine in him, as all humans on a path of transcendence or salvation must do. This does not contradict Trinitarian theology.
Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
How do you define "mystic" and "pantheist"?
1. One who has mystical experiences:
"a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect."
2. See definitions already posted.