Was Jesus Neanderthal by 1 to 4 per cent?

[outhouse]

I'm not denying anything of the like. I'm stating, that in this verse that we are talking about, Exodus 21:6 (maybe you should read it), the term elohim should be translated either God, or gods.

thats good your leaving the option open for plural or not.

It could be a number of lesser gods.

I doubt it.

I'm not saying which gods are being mentioned

not my fault you dont know.

divine council.

You have a winner here, and the most proabable

with El and his concort Asherah, and the 70 divine children including Yahweh. [yes you know Baal is in there as well as the others]

You claimed that it referred to four specific gods, but there is no evidence that elohim must refer to those four specific gods, and to claim so is ridiculous.

You know as well as I do the redactions buried the definitions easily used. But by time period and content we can deduce things.

Really, you are talking about something way out there.

I have made a stand, unlike you who have not.

Also, Elohim was associated with Yahweh. How do we know this? It is in the Bible. It may have been redacted at a later date (which means it became associated with God, nice way of contradicting yourself), but we are talking about a later date. Exodus, and the Torah, is usually said to have been compiled in post-exilic times.

correct, allot depends on who compiled the early writings.

Date is everything.

I will give in that I was wrong for the fact that they did write in Yahweh as Elohim in later dates, but you knew my context was the earlier material.

when it comes to the Bible, means either God, or gods.

make up your mind LOL

To translate it as El, simply would be dumb

False again, and you should have clarified the details


In the earlier material El would be the more correct deity if non plural then Yahweh.

In the plural El is definatly present.




Maybe you should answer my question as its more relative to the conversation. Why would Elohim in this case be Yahweh??

 

[outhouse]

Elohim in this case could also mean powerful men or judges and not a deity at all

 

[Trimijopulos]

That aside, by what brilliant chain of reason are we to assume that 3rd century BCE Alexandian Jews would likely be more objective and more knowledgable than those who have availed themselves of a wealth of modern scholarship? The presumption lie somewhere between pathetically naive and irresponsibly thoughtless.

The wealth of wisdom of modern scholarship, when applied to Hebrew language, will help you read the newspapers and novels written in Hebrew, but will not help you in the least in understanding the OT.

The following refers to understanding the Egyptian texts but is of value when it comes to understanding any archaic text.
By Alan Gardiner, the author of the “Egyptian Grammar,”:

The only basis we have for preferring one rendering to another, when once the exigencies of grammar and dictionary have been satisfied – and these leave a large margin for divergencies – is an intuitive appreciation of the trend of the ancient writer’s mind.

3rd century Alexandrian Jews were lucky enough to still be able to understand something of … the trend of the ancient writers mind. Your beloved today’s scholars have not the slightest idea and on top of that they think –as you do- that they are more intelligent than those ancient sages.

You want to understand Isaiah and Ezekiel although you have no idea what Shepherd, prison, flock, Bull, Virgin, Judges, Judgment, Messenger, slave-marking, door post, and gods mean.

P.S. I need no translation in order to understand Septuagint. The word used «κριτήριον του Θεού» may mean God’s tribunal (for judging living people. Lot was the God’s tribunal in the Sodom incident) or it may mean God’s own judging capacity. His sense of justice). Yet “judges” is the correct rendering.

 

[fallingblood]

Elohim in this case could also mean powerful men or judges and not a deity at all

Nope. As Robert Alter states, the translation of judges really was nothing more than an attempt to avoid scandal. There is no reason to translate it as judges, and in the translations that do translate it as such, it is based on nothing more than Rabbinic tradition, which was meant to avoid scandal. I already covered this earlier.

 

[fallingblood]

The wealth of wisdom of modern scholarship, when applied to Hebrew language, will help you read the newspapers and novels written in Hebrew, but will not help you in the least in understanding the OT.


P.S. I need no translation in order to understand Septuagint. The word used «κριτήριον του Θεού» may mean God’s tribunal (for judging living people. Lot was the God’s tribunal in the Sodom incident) or it may mean God’s own judging capacity. His sense of justice). Yet “judges” is the correct rendering.

Yes, because actually understanding the actual language that the Hebrew Bible was written in won't actually help understanding it? Do you understand how ludicrous that is? Reading a work in the original language does help understand it better. Translations take away from the meaning.



So, now do you understand ancient Greek just fine? Can you actually translate it yourself, or are you relying on someone else's translation? And I do find it funny that you refuse to tell me what translation it was when you posted the quote from Exodus. Not to mention, you have avoided many key points.

Really, there is no reason to translate elohim to judges. There is no grounds for it. The only reason it is translated as such in Exodus 21:6 (and in fact, most don't translate it as such. I gave you five various translations earlier, including Jewish translations, as well as Christian translations) and none of them translate it to judges. The reason being that such a translation only occurred in order to avoid any scandal. It wasn't an actual translation, but a Rabbinical decision to avoid scandal.

 

[outhouse]

Nope. As Robert Alter states, the translation of judges really was nothing more than an attempt to avoid scandal. There is no reason to translate it as judges, and in the translations that do translate it as such, it is based on nothing more than Rabbinic tradition, which was meant to avoid scandal. I already covered this earlier.

But when reading it

it sure sounds like you grab your slave and take him to someplace to a man of importance or judge before you poke a hole in his ear.

if we go with god im still leaning to the divine council with El at the helm lol

 

[outhouse]

Yes, because actually understanding the actual language that the Hebrew Bible was written in won't actually help understanding it? Do you understand how ludicrous that is? Reading a work in the original language does help understand it better. Translations take away from the meaning.



So, now do you understand ancient Greek just fine? Can you actually translate it yourself, or are you relying on someone else's translation? And I do find it funny that you refuse to tell me what translation it was when you posted the quote from Exodus. Not to mention, you have avoided many key points.

I agree with you here.

Really, there is no reason to translate elohim to judges

jury is out on this one.

my bible states judge as well and it reads judge more then god

 

[fallingblood]

I agree with you here.




jury is out on this one.

my bible states judge as well and it reads judge more then god

And what translation are you using? NIV or KJV?

The reason it is translated to judges in that case is because of the Septuagint, which took the term elohim and translated it roughly to angels or before the judgement of God (of course it was in Greek, but that is the English translation). Then it was taken by the Vulgate, and KJV to mean angels of judges. So we have a Hebrew word, being incorrectly translated to Greek, and then being taken over by the Vulgate and KJV to something even more incorrect. I know the NIV also translates it as such.

So really, it just isn't an accurate translation.

 

[Trimijopulos]

So, now do you understand ancient Greek just fine? Can you actually translate it yourself, or are you relying on someone else's translation? And I do find it funny that you refuse to tell me what translation it was when you posted the quote from Exodus. Not to mention, you have avoided many key points.

I mostly prefer KJV and Septuagint but I also check the Hebrew texts in Biblos.com.
Septuagint is not written exactly in ancient Greek. I need a translation to understand Plato but with the Septuagint I need help only in some difficult passages and “κριτήριοn του Θεού» I can understand perfectly without any help.

However, the point here is that all those who translate the OT they do know Hebrew but still that knowledge does not help them to reach an agreement. What does that mean? That what one mostly needs is to be able to know what was in the mind of the author of the texts he is reading rather than having a very good knowledge of the author’s language.

Really, there is no reason to translate elohim to judges. There is no grounds for it. The only reason it is translated as such in Exodus 21:6 (and in fact, most don't translate it as such. I gave you five various translations earlier, including Jewish translations, as well as Christian translations) and none of them translate it to judges. The reason being that such a translation only occurred in order to avoid any scandal. It wasn't an actual translation, but a Rabbinical decision to avoid scandal.

I do not understand what you mean by “to avoid scandal.” Please explain.
As to the reason that “demands” elohim to be translated as “judges,” I’ve already told you that it is because of the reference to the marking. The marking of a man follows his judgment.