Was Jesus Only Human?

[sojourner]

The resurrection is also mentioned in Acts and 1 Corinthians 15.

Yes, but 1Thess. Is so much earlier than any of the gospels.

 

[sojourner]

SO WHAT? The Bible is NOT evidence.

Wait... why not?

 

[sojourner]

Have you got a G-Thomas that is clear? The ones I dug out of the internet were transliterations........ rather difficult.

And have you got G-Q se;parated out from G-Matthew and G-Luke?

Please?

Yes, I have a clear Thomas, and a Q that is separated from Matt and Luke. It’s also compiled in order of the sayings’ appearance in the texts.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Because the Arabs have as much right to live there as the Jews.

Sorry. It is not about rights. It is about who the victor is.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[shunyadragon]

The claim is based on the fact that people disagree on this matter and will always do so.

The Gospels were written within the likely lifetimes of the Apostles. Letters written by members of the immediate Post Apostolic church, circa 120-130 AD confirm this.

Polycarp, who knew a teacher who studied under the Apostle John, confirms Johns gospel was written by John, and was accurate.

You describe third hand knowledge at best. The church fathers that compiled the NT had no first hand knowledge of the apostles. They are their books in their language.

 

[shunyadragon]

I find the common passages between Thomas and Q especially compelling for sources — either written or oral — by about the year 40. It’s unclear whether Q was a text or an oral source. But it was a source, and there is evidence that it’s prior to 50 CE.

It well accepted that before 50 AD there were oral traditions of the sayings of Jesus, but stretching the gospels to much before 50 AD is hypothetical. I believe Q or another source contained a simple biography of JEsus.

 

[shunyadragon]

Gosh, how did all those Jews and proselytes get saved, until the Roman Empire turned Christian?

Ask them, but nonetheless just as people believe today they believe it is true, but also nonetheless the Resurrection is not a documented event in history.

Why did all the followers of Jim Jones commit suicide to give their lives for their messiah. Martyrdom is too common in history to be a witness to the truth of the messenger, or any claim of a miraculous event, and there are many miraculous events attributed ancient great figures..

Don't answer, I'm being rhetorical, you know over a dozen ancient historians said early Christians preached the resurrection from the dead.

Actually absolutely no known references recorded at the time.

PS. The resurrection of Christ is corroborated in multiple OT accounts, aka "prophecy"!

High hypothetically interpretive and the Jews of course do not agree.

 

[shunyadragon]

I find the common passages between Thomas and Q especially compelling for sources — either written or oral — by about the year 40. It’s unclear whether Q was a text or an oral source. But it was a source, and there is evidence that it’s prior to 50 CE.

You're overstating the dating of the Gospel of Thomas. It is not documented as being early, ie before 50 ce, but a range of estimates by different scholars some as late as 200 CE or later.

 

[shunyadragon]

You said, "The Resurrection story exists only in gospel accounts, and has absolutely no corroborating writings nor evidence outside the gospels..." 1 Thess. is not a gospel. It does, however, corroborate the gospel resurrection accounts. Therefore, your statement that the story only exists in gospel accounts is refuted. It is outside the gospels -- indeed, was written before the gospels, so your statement that there is no evidence outside the gospels is refuted. Doesn't matter that Paul did not witness the resurrection. That wasn't one of the parameters you set in your statement.

I do not believe that 1 Thess refers to witness of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, but to the belief and hope of Resurrection.

 

[sojourner]

It well accepted that before 50 AD there were oral traditions of the sayings of Jesus, but stretching the gospels to much before 50 AD is hypothetical. I believe Q or another source contained a simple biography of JEsus.

Q is a sayings gospel, like Thomas. Yes, it’s hypothetical, but the evidence seems fairly solid.

 

[sojourner]

You're overstating the dating of the Gospel of Thomas. It is not documented as being early, ie before 50 ce, but a range of estimates by different scholars some as late as 200 CE or later.

No, it’s not that early. I’m not buying that it was written that late, though. But when we consider the shared passages, and realizing that Thomas was written in Syria, and then considering the time it would have taken for the community to travel there and become settled enough to produce writing, the community would have had to split from the Q community by about the year 40.

 

[sojourner]

I do not believe that 1 Thess refers to witness of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, but to the belief and hope of Resurrection.

No, it refers to the resurrection.

 

[lukethethird]

I am of the opinion that a man called 'Jesus' existed,...

Opinions vary because no one knows one way or the other.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, I have a clear Thomas, and a Q that is separated from Matt and Luke. It’s also compiled in order of the sayings’ appearance in the texts.

I went searching yesterday, and did find pieces similar to those described by you.
I need to review both.

 

[JJ50]

Opinions vary because no one knows one way or the other.

Very true.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, it refers to the resurrection.

It does not refer to a physical resurrection. The text leads my Christians to believe in the Rapture.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, it’s not that early. I’m not buying that it was written that late, though. But when we consider the shared passages, and realizing that Thomas was written in Syria, and then considering the time it would have taken for the community to travel there and become settled enough to produce writing, the community would have had to split from the Q community by about the year 40.

The link to a 'possible' Syria does not necessarily date it to an early date.

From: Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia
"Nicholas Perrin argues that Thomas is dependent on the Diatessaron, which was composed shortly after 172 by Tatian in Syria.[62] Perrin explains the order of the sayings by attempting to demonstrate that almost all adjacent sayings are connected by Syriac catchwords, whereas in Coptic or Greek, catchwords have been found for only less than half of the pairs of adjacent sayings.[63] Peter J. Williams analyzed Perrin's alleged Syriac catchwords and found them implausible. [64] Robert Shedinger wrote that since Perrin attempts to reconstruct an Old Syriac version of Thomas without first establishing Thomas' reliance on the Diatessaron, Perrin's logic seems circular.[65]"

The link to Q remains hypothetical.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, but 1Thess. Is so much earlier than any of the gospels.

When was 1 Thess written: Chapter 46: 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians

When and where was 1 Thessalonians written?

"During his second missionary journey (about A.D. 51), Paul had labored with Silas and Timothy in Thessalonica. The three men were forced out of the city by Jewish leaders (see Acts 17:5–15). Paul later sent Timothy back to Thessalonica to give support and encouragement to Church members there. Later, Timothy reported to Paul, at Corinth, that the Thessalonian Saints had remained faithful despite persecution and that their righteous influence was spreading (see Acts 18:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:7–8; 3:6–8). It is likely that Paul wrote his First Epistle to the Thessalonians shortly after he received this news in about A.D. 52."

 

[BilliardsBall]

Ask them, but nonetheless just as people believe today they believe it is true, but also nonetheless the Resurrection is not a documented event in history.

Why did all the followers of Jim Jones commit suicide to give their lives for their messiah. Martyrdom is too common in history to be a witness to the truth of the messenger, or any claim of a miraculous event, and there are many miraculous events attributed ancient great figures..



Actually absolutely no known references recorded at the time.



High hypothetically interpretive and the Jews of course do not agree.

A dozen NT writers proclaim Jesus Christ’s resurrection for the justification of believers. Other than your anti-miracles bias, why should I reject a dozen writers shown accurate and prescient about everything from human nature to the rise of modern Israel, for your philosophical opinion slandering them as liars and/or lunatics, who sit in a comfy armchair and criticize them, in a nation founded on their principles?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Name one?

Name one what? I posed multiple questions/examples.