Was Jesus Only Human?

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes. That was a specific question. Specific to the mythicists response to Pliny's mention of Christians.

A mythicist is someone who claims that jesus was never an actual person.
A mythicist is not someone who claims that christians don't exist.

Pliny as a source mentions christians. So what?
Why would a mythicist have to reject the existance of christians?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You seem to be confusing the christian followers with the "god leader" these christians worship.

Not in the least. But an early and substantive Jesus movement lends significant credibility to the existence of a core Jerusalem cult. Provisionally assuming Jesus as cult leader is, in my opinion, far more reasonable that to posit a mid 1st century CE fabrication capable of producing such results.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Not in the least. But an early and substantive Jesus movement lends significant credibility to the existence of a core Jerusalem cult. Provisionally assuming Jesus as cult leader is, in my opinion, far more reasonable that to posit a mid 1st century CE fabrication capable of producing such results.

On the face of it, I agree.

But put in context, and considering the actual contents of the beliefs and its pretty much indisputable "borrowing" of other, rivalling or older, ideas and religions, I think that quickly raises many many questions.

To the point that if this whole thing started with some single dude, it's pretty safe to say that that dude was very unlike the charachter described in the NT. So different that likely one might not even recognise him if contemporary evidence were found.

Another option is that he's a hodgepodge of various characters that over the years got blended together.

When either of these is the case, could we really answer the question "was there a historical jesus" with "yes"?
I personally doubt it.

That's kind of my stance.
IF I assume an actual historical individual formed the basis for these stories... I consider it extremely plausible that if we would find his contemporary and accurate biography tomorrow, we wouldn't recognise it as being the NT jesus at all.

 

[firedragon]

He wrote about christians in at best 115 ad.
What is rejected by whom, exactly? Not sure what you are asking.

Since I didnt ask this from you you may not be aware of the context.

 

[firedragon]

A mythicist is someone who claims that jesus was never an actual person.
A mythicist is not someone who claims that christians don't exist.

Pliny as a source mentions christians. So what?
Why would a mythicist have to reject the existance of christians?

Again your response is out of context. That may happen when you respond to a question not asked from you you see.

 

[PruePhillip]

I explain it with the idea of self-fullfilling prophecy, coupled with a certain amount of "artisitic freedom" in interpreting the stories in such a way, that it matches whatever prefered event you'ld like it to match.

So when Daniel says the Messiah will come while the temple
still stands, but he will be "cut off" for the sake of his people
and this enemy will take away Jerusalem, Israel and the
Jewish people. How did Christians manage to craft a story
about Jesus around that?

Where is the "artistic freedom" in this Babylonian prophecy?
Do you think the Christians crafted this story to explain Rome
and Jesus? If so, how come Daniel is in the Dead Sea Scrolls
which were written before Jesus?
What "preferred" event could YOU craft from scriptures?

 

[shunyadragon]

A mythicist is someone who claims that jesus was never an actual person. A mythicist is not someone who claims that christians don't exist.

More correctly is the mythicist whould be someone who rejects the miraculous Divine Jesus. but does not necessarily reject the existence of Jesus at the time the Bible describes him.

 

[Augustus]

More correctly is the mythicist whould be someone who rejects the miraculous Divine Jesus. but does not necessarily reject the existence of Jesus at the time the Bible describes him.

More correctly (or, if you prefer, most commonly):

Jesus was a normal human = historical Jesus
Jesus never existed = Jesus mythicism

 

[firedragon]

More correctly is the mythicist whould be someone who rejects the miraculous Divine Jesus. but does not necessarily reject the existence of Jesus at the time the Bible describes him.

Actually, right now, a Mythicist is by definition a person who believes that the whole Jesus Christ character was a myth. I know that the meaning of the word doesn't match the definition but this is how its perceived currently. You know how words achieve the users goals a lot of times.

 

[PruePhillip]

More correctly (or, if you prefer, most commonly):

Jesus was a normal human = historical Jesus
Jesus never existed = Jesus mythicism

Can that apply to other people?
ie
Concerning the Carthaginian General Hannibal -

Hannibal was a normal human = historical Hannibal
Hannibal never existed = Hannibal mythicism

The account of Hannibal taking an African army over the Alps,
complete with elephants, and defeating every Roman army
for 12 years is a tad unbelievable. Hannibal was recorded by
two writers. Doubt there's any proof this story happened.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Again your response is out of context. That may happen when you respond to a question not asked from you you see.

I read through the thread. I'm aware of the context.

Pliny talks about christians. A century after the supposed events concerning jesus. The thread is about jesus.

 

[Augustus]

Can that apply to other people?
ie
Concerning the Carthaginian General Hannibal -

Hannibal was a normal human = historical Hannibal
Hannibal never existed = Hannibal mythicism

The account of Hannibal taking an African army over the Alps,
complete with elephants, and defeating every Roman army
for 12 years is a tad unbelievable. Hannibal was recorded by
two writers. Doubt there's any proof this story happened.

You can apply whatever words to whatever words you like.

In terms of convention, historical/mythical Jesus have specific meanings though, whereas historical/mythical Hannibal don't as, AFAIK, there aren't (m)any 2nd Punic War mythicists.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

More correctly is the mythicist whould be someone who rejects the miraculous Divine Jesus. but does not necessarily reject the existence of Jesus at the time the Bible describes him.

No. Mythicist ideas are about the historicity of jesus, human or otherwise.
Someone who believes jesus who was just a human existed, is not a mythicist.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So when Daniel says the Messiah will come while the temple
still stands, but he will be "cut off" for the sake of his people
and this enemy will take away Jerusalem, Israel and the
Jewish people. How did Christians manage to craft a story
about Jesus around that?

Where is the "artistic freedom" in this Babylonian prophecy?
Do you think the Christians crafted this story to explain Rome
and Jesus? If so, how come Daniel is in the Dead Sea Scrolls
which were written before Jesus?
What "preferred" event could YOU craft from scriptures?

I have no need to craft anything from any scripture.
The claimed bible prophecies aren't any more impressive to me then quranic prophecies or whatever other religion you don't believe in are to you.

I gave you my answer and I can only repeat myself.

 

[firedragon]

I read through the thread. I'm aware of the context.

Pliny talks about christians. A century after the supposed events concerning jesus. The thread is about jesus.

Okay.

Yes. Pliny talks about Christians, not about Jesus. So let me ask you another question based on this.

Do you think Pliny is reporting a group who are singing hymns to a Mythical character called Christ?

 

[firedragon]

I have no need to craft anything from any scripture.
The claimed bible prophecies aren't any more impressive to me then quranic prophecies or whatever other religion you don't believe in are to you.

I gave you my answer and I can only repeat myself.

What Quranic prophecies are you referring to?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Do you think Pliny is reporting a group who are singing hymns to a Mythical character called Christ?

I don't know.

I think any of the following:
- there was a historical jesus around which these stories lived and expanded
- there were several individuals which later on through story telling coalesced in a single individual name jesus
- there were no individuals and just stories, which coalesced into the NT story

I wouldn't know how to tell which one is more likely, because there is no contemporary evidence at all for any of them.

I'm fine with any of them. I actually also don't even think it matters much which of these 3 is accurate.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What Quranic prophecies are you referring to?

Fulfilled Prophecies of The Holy Quran | Islam Ahmadiyya

And next to prophecy they also claim their "miracles of the scripture" in other ways

Miracles of Quran

Nothing special.

 

[firedragon]

I don't know.

I think any of the following:
- there was a historical jesus around which these stories lived and expanded
- there were several individuals which later on through story telling coalesced in a single individual name jesus
- there were no individuals and just stories, which coalesced into the NT story

I wouldn't know how to tell which one is more likely, because there is no contemporary evidence at all for any of them.

I'm fine with any of them. I actually also don't even think it matters much which of these 3 is accurate.

So you are not a mythicist! If you are not, that question of one does not apply and is irrelevant.

If we are to put historical possibilities there could be many.

 

[firedragon]

Fulfilled Prophecies of The Holy Quran | Islam Ahmadiyya

And next to prophecy they also claim their "miracles of the scripture" in other ways

Miracles of Quran

Nothing special.

Ah. that.

Anyway, thanks for giving at least a specific about what you think are Quranic prophecies. But your post portrays that you are just dismissive by default so thats very similar to others having blind faith in their respective scripture or whatever they believe in.

I am not interested in discussing that kind of thing brother. So thanks. Cheers.