Was Jesus sent to the Jews only, or to Mankind?

[javajo]

So it obviously cannot be expected of me to accept something that goes against reasoning granted by God. Its more reasonable to accept that this is an excuse to explain the apparent death on the cross. This understanding goes against everything we see of God in practice. I can understand that it is comforting to believe that someone will take over all your sins but it is cruel and trying to ignore it is delusional.

You are welcome to your opinion. I never asked or expected you to accept my belief.

Moreover, I can go to show that it does not fulfil the prophecy as you interpreted because although it is commonly believed that Jesus (as) died on the cross it is not what comes up on closer examination of the bible and history.

LOL.

I will show that he did not die on the cross, he did not physically go up to heaven, and he did not come back to life. Instead he survived the cross proving he was not cursed and died a natural death years later.

Hysterical! That's getting way out there for me, completely irrational imo. Good luck and good-bye.

 

[waitasec]

What does Jesus say in this matter?

according to matthew 15:24-- jews only
according christians-- mankind

basically it has to do with the 2nd coming never coming to fruition as jesus said would happen to the sanhedrin in mark 14, imo

gotta love them goal posts on wheels...
:sarcastic

 

[javajo]

according to matthew 15:24-- jews only
according christians-- mankind

Well Mathew was a book written by a Jew to the Jews about the King of the Jews, the long awaited Messiah. Through OT scripture he documents Jesus as Messiah. Each Gospel account shows different 'sides' of Christ, as Messiah, the Servant in Mark, his humanity as the Son of Man in Luke, and his Deity in John.

basically it has to do with the 2nd coming never coming to fruition as jesus said would happen to the sanhedrin in mark 14, imo

gotta love them goal posts on wheels...
:sarcastic

Well, there is some misunderstanding of some of Christ's statements as to when and who will be around to see his return. Perhaps even the dead will see it somehow. Anyway, he made it clear to his disciples just before he ascended back to Heaven:

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1

 

[Rational_Mind]

You are welcome to your opinion. I never asked or expected you to accept my belief.

LOL.

Hysterical! That's getting way out there for me, completely irrational imo. Good luck and good-bye.

Coming from a person who accepted that there is no reasoning ground on his beliefs. Without even evaluating it seems unreasonable that a person survived after being taken off the cross way too early and being taken for dead as he was in a unconscious state, then being given treatment on apparently dead body, then being seen as alive but taken as ghost. Yet it is reasonable to have a God die on a cross and come back to life. Ignorace is Bliss

 

[javajo]

Coming from a person who accepted that there is no reasoning ground on his beliefs. Without even evaluating it seems unreasonable that a person survived after being taken off the cross way too early and being taken for dead as he was in a unconscious state, then being given treatment on apparently dead body, then being seen as alive but taken as ghost. Yet it is reasonable to have a God die on a cross and come back to life. Ignorace is Bliss

I simply said I do not know the mind of God. From studying the Bible I have come to believe in some spiritual laws. One is that all have sinned, we have all disobeyed God like Adam and Eve did. The other is that the penalty for sin is death, as God told Adam and Eve literally, "dying, you will die". This death is physical, we will all die, and it is spiritual, we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins and we inherited this sin-nature from Adam. So, since all have sinned and the penalty is death, for God to be just, he must enforce the penalty. But in his great love for us he paid the penalty himself by dying (the penalty of sin is death) on the cross and paid the penalty once and for all who trust him that his death was sufficient to pay that penalty. This is what God's Word teaches, I don't pretend to know everything about why God did it this way, but that is what it says. That is my belief and it is rational to me. Of course I believe Jesus rose from the dead and walked on the water, so I understand if you don't think its rational, I totally understand. Call me crazy, its no big deal, lots of people think I am so you are not alone. Its cool. Its just my personal beliefs, call me irrational, delusional or whatever, I'm just sharing here.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Romans 11

 

[Rational_Mind]

I simply said I do not know the mind of God. From studying the Bible I have come to believe in some spiritual laws. One is that all have sinned, we have all disobeyed God like Adam and Eve did. The other is that the penalty for sin is death, as God told Adam and Eve literally, "dying, you will die". This death is physical, we will all die, and it is spiritual, we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins and we inherited this sin-nature from Adam. So, since all have sinned and the penalty is death, for God to be just, he must enforce the penalty. But in his great love for us he paid the penalty himself by dying (the penalty of sin is death) on the cross and paid the penalty once and for all who trust him that his death was sufficient to pay that penalty. This is what God's Word teaches, I don't pretend to know everything about why God did it this way, but that is what it says. That is my belief and it is rational to me. Of course I believe Jesus rose from the dead and walked on the water, so I understand if you don't think its rational, I totally understand. Call me crazy, its no big deal, lots of people think I am so you are not alone. Its cool. Its just my personal beliefs, call me irrational, delusional or whatever, I'm just sharing here.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Romans 11

What if you are completely wrong? Would it not be of interest to you to investigate. Is it not fair for you to raise questions. What is the point in believing something you don't even understand. Why should you deserve any credit in the eyes of God. You just got lucky getting into a belief you don't even understand.

BTW, if the penalty was paid by the Son that is just cruel. And if this was correct then it would make sense for people who accept Jesus as their saviour to not have to suffer death. But this is not the case. Moreover why was God so cruel to prior generations who never even got to witness any of this. Why was only one nation in one time given this chance. Everyone prior got screwed over. No matter how hard you run around this idea it is flawed. And you know in your heart it is so, but you explain it by saying this is faith. You should fear the consequences of running from the truth. Why don't you just investigate further. What do you fear? Having to let go of your current beliefs?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

according to matthew 15:24-- jews only
according christians-- mankind
basically it has to do with the 2nd coming never coming to fruition as jesus said would happen to the sanhedrin in mark 14, imo
:sarcastic

Jews FIRST. At Acts [3 vs 25,26] the Jews were first meaning more to come.
That is why Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to open up the way secondly to the Samaritans, then to the gentiles or people of the nations.

Those first-century Jews rejected Christ and attention was turned to gentile nations.
-Acts 13 v 46; and please see: Isaiah 49 v 6.

Jesus would confirm or fulfill God's promise made to forefather Abraham that ALL nations would be blessed. [Romans 15 v 8; Genesis 12 v 3; 22 v 18; Rev. 22 v 2]

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and Mark 13 have both a minor and a major fulfillment.
the minor fulfillment came in the year 70 when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem.
the MAJOR fulfillment is for our time or time frame with the coming 'time of separation' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yet it is reasonable to have a God die on a cross and come back to life. Ignorace is Bliss

Scripture does Not teach God died. God is from everlasting to everlasting [Psalm 90 v 2]
Scripture teaches that God resurrected his dead Son Jesus.- Acts 2 vs 31,32.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Scripture does Not teach God died. God is from everlasting to everlasting [Psalm 90 v 2]
Scripture teaches that God resurrected his dead Son Jesus.- Acts 2 vs 31,32.

Can you write down your concept explaining why all of this happened. And if you still cannot see the gaps then I will point them out to you. But it appears as if some people close their eyes shut. So I hope you are not one.

 

[waitasec]

Jews FIRST. At Acts

only =/= first
sorry...

Jesus would confirm or fulfill God's promise made to forefather Abraham that ALL nations would be blessed. [Romans 15 v 8; Genesis 12 v 3; 22 v 18; Rev. 22 v 2]

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and Mark 13 have both a minor and a major fulfillment.
the minor fulfillment came in the year 70 when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem.
the MAJOR fulfillment is for our time or time frame with the coming 'time of separation' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32.

mark 14...jesus told the sandhedrin he would personally see jesus return...he didn't.

 

[waitasec]

Well Mathew was a book written by a Jew to the Jews about the King of the Jews, the long awaited Messiah. Through OT scripture he documents Jesus as Messiah. Each Gospel account shows different 'sides' of Christ, as Messiah, the Servant in Mark, his humanity as the Son of Man in Luke, and his Deity in John.

i agree.
however...if one side contradicts another side...then perhaps one or both sides are not accurate.

Well, there is some misunderstanding of some of Christ's statements as to when and who will be around to see his return. Perhaps even the dead will see it somehow. Anyway, he made it clear to his disciples just before he ascended back to Heaven:

he made it clear to the sandhedrin too

gotta love them wheels...

 

[Godobeyer]

The Jewish reply, at least, would be that Jesus wasn't sent, any more than any other human being is sent. He was just a guy, and the Romans killed him, like they killed a lot of other Jewish preachers and teachers (both the orthodox and heretical kinds) of that time. And as for what he taught (insofar as we equate that with the materials in the Christian scriptures), it may be acceptable for non-Jews, but it is absolutely unacceptable for Jews.

he was preacher ?
are the jews in that time sorry that the "Romans" killed him ?

 

[arthra]

What does Jesus say in this matter?

I think the society in which Jesus lived was a divided one and it had a lot of rules about what was clean or unclean ... just as many still practise today.

He does appear to me to have broken down these divisions in His ministry...It appears He did heal Gentiles as well as Jews. He related to Samaritans... Note the parable of the Good Samaritan.

He was in my view a universal prophet and His influence spread across the known world and was felt from Rome to Central Asia and beyond.

Abdul-Baha speaks of the unity of the Holy Spirit:

Another unity is the spiritual unity which emanates from the breaths of the Holy Spirit. This is greater than the unity of mankind. Human unity or solidarity may be likened to the body whereas unity from the breaths of the Holy Spirit is the spirit animating the body. This is a perfect unity. It creates such a condition in mankind that each one will make sacrifices for the other and the utmost desire will be to forfeit life and all that pertains to it in behalf of another's good. This is the unity which existed among the disciples of His Holiness Jesus Christ and bound together the prophets and holy souls of the past.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 258

 

[Levite]

he was preacher ?
are the jews in that time sorry that the "Romans" killed him ?

Well, he seems to have been a preacher, yes. He was never ordained by any of the Rabbinical academies, but that didn't stop a lot of people from preaching whatever they pleased. He was a folk movement leader, not part of any institutional authority.

I don't know how the Jews of that time felt about his being killed: presumably, most decent people in ancient Israel were sorry whenever the Romans killed someone. But one doesn't become a folk movement leader without making some enemies along the way, so presumably there was someone, somewhere who wasn't sorry to see him go.

The Romans killed a lot of people: I would expect that they all had those who were grieved at their deaths, and those who weren't so grieved. That's the human experience for you.

 

[javajo]

What if you are completely wrong? Would it not be of interest to you to investigate. Is it not fair for you to raise questions. What is the point in believing something you don't even understand. Why should you deserve any credit in the eyes of God. You just got lucky getting into a belief you don't even understand.

My beliefs are: If I'm wrong about the Bible then I've lived a more peaceful and joyful life at least, but if you're wrong...well, you know. i 'investigated' my beliefs decades ago and even now I still study other viewpoints or whatnot. But from my many years of life and study I have come to fully trust God and his Son. As far as understanding God, that's like an ant trying to understand the internet. But I believe he has revealed enough to me in scriptures to understand all I need to know for salvation and living this life. As far as credit, no credit needed, for grace is undeserved, unmerited favor, no credit for salvation on my part whatsoever.

BTW, if the penalty was paid by the Son that is just cruel. And if this was correct then it would make sense for people who accept Jesus as their saviour to not have to suffer death. But this is not the case. Moreover why was God so cruel to prior generations who never even got to witness any of this. Why was only one nation in one time given this chance. Everyone prior got screwed over. No matter how hard you run around this idea it is flawed. And you know in your heart it is so, but you explain it by saying this is faith. You should fear the consequences of running from the truth. Why don't you just investigate further. What do you fear? Having to let go of your current beliefs?

Well, you don't know my heart, only me and God do. If you think it was cruel so be it. As I said, the penalty for sin is death. God is just so the penalty had to be paid, so he paid it himself. Sin brought this about, sin is pretty terrible. Prior generations were saved by faith same as us. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. They looked forward to the cross as we look back. I ran to the truth, not away. Jesus is the truth. Why don't YOU investigate further? What do YOU fear?

i agree.
however...if one side contradicts another side...then perhaps one or both sides are not accurate.


he made it clear to the sandhedrin too

gotta love them wheels...

Or one could try to make sense of the seeming contradictions they come across instead of always attacking God's Word.

 

[Rational_Mind]

My beliefs are: If I'm wrong about the Bible then I've lived a more peaceful and joyful life at least, but if you're wrong...well, you know. i 'investigated' my beliefs decades ago and even now I still study other viewpoints or whatnot. But from my many years of life and study I have come to fully trust God and his Son. As far as understanding God, that's like an ant trying to understand the internet. But I believe he has revealed enough to me in scriptures to understand all I need to know for salvation and living this life. As far as credit, no credit needed, for grace is undeserved, unmerited favor, no credit for salvation on my part whatsoever.

Well, you don't know my heart, only me and God do. If you think it was cruel so be it. As I said, the penalty for sin is death. God is just so the penalty had to be paid, so he paid it himself. Sin brought this about, sin is pretty terrible. Prior generations were saved by faith same as us. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. They looked forward to the cross as we look back. I ran to the truth, not away. Jesus is the truth. Why don't YOU investigate further? What do YOU fear?

Or one could try to make sense of the seeming contradictions they come across instead of always attacking God's Word.

What does that (in bold) mean?

And how can I make sense of something that you admit not to understand yourself. How can I make sense of an apple being an orange. Please explain your theory of freeing sin with the story of Jesus in full. I am trying to make sense of it but it appears the person who is explaining it does not understand it.

My position even if incorrect is explainable and justifiable to God. Your position can not be justified if you yourself are in a position where God has not provided you with any answers or explanation that stands to reason. If I have been granted reason by God then I have atleast used it and not taken up ignorance in exchange. If you are right you got lucky and deserve no more credit then one who did not get lucky. A person who wins a lottery deserves no credit to him or herself.

 

[javajo]

What does that (in bold) mean?

Really?

And how can I make sense of something that you admit not to understand yourself. How can I make sense of an apple being an orange. Please explain your theory of freeing sin with the story of Jesus in full. I am trying to make sense of it but it appears the person who is explaining it does not understand it.

I will try to explain my belief. I believe God gave us enough revelation for us to understand as I said. The Gospel is the Good News. Of course there is bad news first for there to be good news. The bad news is, the Bible says all have sinned and the penalty is death. It says we are all dead in sin. The good news is the penalty of death has been paid by Jesus, he died. If we trust him for that then our sins are forgiven and the penalty paid and Christ gives us his righteousness, the righteousness of God, in place of our own 'filthy rags' righteousness and we are freely and forever saved. We are then free to live for God and empowered to not let sin have dominion over us. That's the basics.

My position even if incorrect is explainable and justifiable to God. Your position can not be justified if you yourself are in a position where God has not provided you with any answers or explanation that stands to reason. If I have been granted reason by God then I have atleast used it and not taken up ignorance in exchange. If you are right you got lucky and deserve no more credit then one who did not get lucky. A person who wins a lottery deserves no credit to him or herself.

I believe the Bible is God's Word and that it has provided me with everything I need to understand about God and salvation, etc. While it may not seem reasonable to you, and that's fine, I'm just saying it is reasonable to me and makes sense to me. As I said, its just my beliefs. Sorry if I am unable to explain them in a way that makes sense to you. I'm not asking you to believe what I believe, especially if it makes no sense to you. Its just what I believe, that's all. And I take no credit for any of it as I believe it was Christ who died for me who deserves all the credit.

 

[waitasec]

Or one could try to make sense of the seeming contradictions they come across instead of always attacking God's Word.

correction javajo,
something that is claimed to be gods word.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Really?

I will try to explain my belief. I believe God gave us enough revelation for us to understand as I said. The Gospel is the Good News. Of course there is bad news first for there to be good news. The bad news is, the Bible says all have sinned and the penalty is death. It says we are all dead in sin. The good news is the penalty of death has been paid by Jesus, he died. If we trust him for that then our sins are forgiven and the penalty paid and Christ gives us his righteousness, the righteousness of God, in place of our own 'filthy rags' righteousness and we are freely and forever saved. We are then free to live for God and empowered to not let sin have dominion over us. That's the basics.

I believe the Bible is God's Word and that it has provided me with everything I need to understand about God and salvation, etc. While it may not seem reasonable to you, and that's fine, I'm just saying it is reasonable to me and makes sense to me. As I said, its just my beliefs. Sorry if I am unable to explain them in a way that makes sense to you. I'm not asking you to believe what I believe, especially if it makes no sense to you. Its just what I believe, that's all. And I take no credit for any of it as I believe it was Christ who died for me who deserves all the credit.

Explain the "really?" I am guessing this is some ignorant statement you are going to make about Islam that was given to you by your Religious Cleric.

You still seem to misunderstand things. Answer this question:

If Jesus paid for your sins through death and you accepted him. Then why is it that you should die? Has not the price of death been paid?

How does accepting Jesus death make you a better person? How are you freed from Sin? Do you mean that now you can Sin and it will transmit over to poor Jesus?

Regarding text in bold. You missed the point. God should hold you equal to anyone who doesn't believe in God. Why? Well because what did you actually do to accept Jesus? You could have picked anyone but you just picked what you found will excuse you from punishment. You don't deserve saving any more than people who have not found God yet.

 

[javajo]

correction javajo,
something that is claimed to be gods word.

Correction noted.

Explain the "really?" I am guessing this is some ignorant statement you are going to make about Islam that was given to you by your Religious Cleric.

Here is my beliefs: Hi, I haven't been talking about Islam at all nor do I have a 'religious cleric'. Jesus said in the book of John, if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (8:24b). And he said, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (3:16, 18). So, according to Jesus, one who rejects him and does not believe he died and paid for their sins and he rose again will die in their sins, which means they will have to pay for their sins themselves which is condemnation in Hell forever.

You still seem to misunderstand things. Answer this question: If Jesus paid for your sins through death and you accepted him. Then why is it that you should die? Has not the price of death been paid?

Hebrews 9:26b-28 says, now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. So, all men are appointed to die once, even Christ died, however because Christ is in us and our spirits have been made alive, and because he rose from the grave, we know he will raise us up from the grave as well. That is what the Bible teaches, the dead shall be raised incorruptible (see 1 cor. 15), For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. (see 1 Thess. 4)

How does accepting Jesus death make you a better person? How are you freed from Sin? Do you mean that now you can Sin and it will transmit over to poor Jesus?

In John 8 Jesus said, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. But, If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. And Paul said in Romans 6, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? He goes on to say that those who have believed in Christ are considered dead in Christ, dead to sin, so that we should no longer let it have dominion over us. It is not sinless perfection, for that is not accomplished until the resurrection, but we have the power of God in us to overcome sin and not let it reign and rule our lives. We are not to be slaves to sin, but instead slaves to righteousness unto holiness.

Regarding text in bold. You missed the point. God should hold you equal to anyone who doesn't believe in God. Why? Well because what did you actually do to accept Jesus? You could have picked anyone but you just picked what you found will excuse you from punishment. You don't deserve saving any more than people who have not found God yet.

I absolutely do not deserve saving, that is very true. The definition of grace is totally undeserved, unmerited, unearned favor. The Bible says we were dead, dog dead, like a corpse six feet under, with no way of saving or helping save ourselves and we did not deserve salvation when we accepted the free gift nor do we deserve it for one day after. But God, in his great love for us paid the penalty so we can be freely forgiven and the only one who gets any glory for that is the Lord Jesus Christ. That is my beliefs, thanks.