Was Muhammad a good man?

[FearGod]

Let's put aside all the wars and the bloody battles, the ones that forced my ancestors to convert to Islam. Let's put all that aside, let's picture an old man asking his best friend if he could have his permission to marry his 6 year old daughter. His friend agrees. The man then visits his best friend’s house and speaks with the 6 year old daughter. Her parents watch as the he proposes marriage to the child. He is serious; he wants to marry the little girl and is asking for her consent. The little child says nothing; she only stares at him in silence.

The Islamic source materials state that Muhammad proposed marriage to Aisha when she was 6. He assumed her silence constituted her consent. Some 2 to 3 years later, just after he had fled to Medina, he consummated his marriage with her. He was 52 and she was 9. This occurred prior to Aisha’s first menses and by Islam’s legal definition Aisha was still considered a child. Islam teaches that a child enters adulthood at the beginning of puberty. (This is scientifically inaccurate, the onset of puberty does not equal adulthood).

The bottom line is Muhammad, the creator of Islam, revered by his followers, had sex with a child! Worse, Muhammad's action and teachings on marriage established an Islamic precedent and Islamic law allows female children to be married off and engaged in sex provided they are able to handle a man’s penis (Quran 65:4). This has lead to physical, and psychological damage to many children.

Please, I ask you kindly, as intelligent people, explain to me HOW and WHY do you revere Muhammad as a good man?

May i ask you one question ?

Who do you think is better (you or Mohammed PBUH) ?
his followers and lovers in the facebook of real life is around 2 billions


[youtube]y5xA9zLZoU4[/youtube]
What They Said - YouTube

 

[YmirGF]

You seriously don't want to know what I really think about Muhammad. Besides which, the RF guidelines prohibit me from having a full and frank conversation on the topic.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Well I am glad people are willing to admit that was a common practice at the time, but that would mean everything in religion only relates to its time! Why is it still in use in the modern world!

My poor grandmather was married at the age of 11, while my grandfather was well in his 30s! It's disguting, how people still get their morals from religion when we have much better tools that we can use!

I wouldn't say it was because of the religion that it happened, it was more cultural, and cross-cultural at that. The Quran doesn't mention the practice at all. Now, if the religion had actually been created by an almighty creator, shouldn't he known enough to have placed restrictions on it? Sure, I think so, but then again, this is one of the reasons why I don't follow a theistic religion, none of them seem to make much sense, especially of the Abrahamic variety. But it's a bit disingenuous to level a charge toward a religion, when the religion itself doesn't seem to condone the practice. This is similar to female genital mutilation: while it's common practice in predominantly Muslim nations, it's not the religion that teaches it, it's the culture. Same goes for honor killings.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

If God had created Islam why did he have to adopt pagan practices popular in Arabia immediately before Muhammad’s time?

To be fair, there's just as much evidence suggesting this for Christianity as well.

 

[England my lionheart]

Let's put aside all the wars and the bloody battles, the ones that forced my ancestors to convert to Islam. Let's put all that aside, let's picture an old man asking his best friend if he could have his permission to marry his 6 year old daughter. His friend agrees. The man then visits his best friend’s house and speaks with the 6 year old daughter. Her parents watch as the he proposes marriage to the child. He is serious; he wants to marry the little girl and is asking for her consent. The little child says nothing; she only stares at him in silence.

The Islamic source materials state that Muhammad proposed marriage to Aisha when she was 6. He assumed her silence constituted her consent. Some 2 to 3 years later, just after he had fled to Medina, he consummated his marriage with her. He was 52 and she was 9. This occurred prior to Aisha’s first menses and by Islam’s legal definition Aisha was still considered a child. Islam teaches that a child enters adulthood at the beginning of puberty. (This is scientifically inaccurate, the onset of puberty does not equal adulthood).

The bottom line is Muhammad, the creator of Islam, revered by his followers, had sex with a child! Worse, Muhammad's action and teachings on marriage established an Islamic precedent and Islamic law allows female children to be married off and engaged in sex provided they are able to handle a man’s penis (Quran 65:4). This has lead to physical, and psychological damage to many children.

Please, I ask you kindly, as intelligent people, explain to me HOW and WHY do you revere Muhammad as a good man?

Child Marriage and paedophilla are disgusting practices,in the context of Muhammeds time it was nothing out of the ordinary,the problem,as you have pointed out is it sets a precedent,if it was ok for the Prophet to do it etc,just like "what your right hand possesses" it sets a precedent to keep a slave though many would argue their God wasn't powerful enough to just say "no more slavery*.

I think its worth bearing in mind though that there were other reasons to marry Aisha when you consider who her father was,Abu Bakr was powerful and it would have made a good alliance

 

[kassault37]

Actually I think most people in the world, with the exception of some brutal dictators and awful murderers, are better than Mohammed. He was a violent, mysoginist, evil man! He spread his beliefs through war!! This is how Islam spread. Fortunately most of us former Muslims realize this, as we read history, as we learn about science and great discoveries of the world. As we read the Quran it becomes more and more evident what a fraud this man was! I am finally free of Islam, which to me was a cancer that I was cured of! And that's how I feel about religion as a whole.

Regarding your second point about Mohammed's lovers. First of all, the figure "2 billion" is far from true. There are countries like Iran where most people assume has a 99% Muslim population, where in fact the majority of the Iranian people (not their government) despise Islam. It was a religion forced onto their ancestors! Secondly, so what if Billions love Mohammed, most of them live in poor countries where the level of education is so low that they cannot even understand anything aside from what they are told from birth. The percentage of educated practicing Muslims compared to those living in conditions where they have no choice but to accept Islam is so low! Numbers mean nothing when the majority are poor and uneducated, hence unable to gain enough knowledge to understand how terrible religion is!

May i ask you one question ?

Who do you think is better (you or Mohammed PBUH) ?
his followers and lovers in the facebook of real life is around 2 billions


[youtube]y5xA9zLZoU4[/youtube]
What They Said - YouTube

 

[1robin]

To be fair, there's just as much evidence suggesting this for Christianity as well.

Well I provided a little of the evidence for this concerning the Quran and you would have to do so for the Bible in order for your claim to be evaluated. I will say one thing in general in respose to your general comment. I assume you are speaking about the NT. At the time the NT was written the one thing you would do if you wanted your (made up) religion to be rejected and yourself probably killed or expelled was to import another religion's teachings. Israel’s history was fraught with their "whoring" after other Gods and being punished severely for it time after time. By this time they had finally learned and ruthlessly resisted and rooted out all foreign theological influence. They would not tolerate anything that even sounded the least bit foreign and expelled anyone suspected of it, even entire groups of people. The Essenes are an example. They did not even import anything, they simply had an unorthodox view of scripture and they were ostracized. Many of them went to Arabia and their heretical teachings would up in the Quran. That being said give me specific examples and I will evaluate your claim.

 

[1robin]

Child Marriage and paedophilla are disgusting practices,in the context of Muhammeds time it was nothing out of the ordinary,the problem,as you have pointed out is it sets a precedent,if it was ok for the Prophet to do it etc,just like "what your right hand possesses" it sets a precedent to keep a slave though many would argue their God wasn't powerful enough to just say "no more slavery*.

I think its worth bearing in mind though that there were other reasons to marry Aisha when you consider who her father was,Abu Bakr was powerful and it would have made a good alliance

Keep in mind we are not discussing a common representative man of his time but a representative of God on Earth. Biblical prophets made their share of mistakes but all rolled into one they did not commit the atrocities Muhammad did, nor did Muhammad complete the great acts any one of them did. Biblical prophets also had another advantage. They could demonstrate the origin of their message by performing supernatural acts. Muhammad would not even do so when challenged. Any God that sent that man has a lot of explaining to do.

 

[FearGod]

Actually I think most people in the world, with the exception of some brutal dictators and awful murderers, are better than Mohammed. He was a violent, mysoginist, evil man! He spread his beliefs through war!! This is how Islam spread. Fortunately most of us former Muslims realize this, as we read history, as we learn about science and great discoveries of the world. As we read the Quran it becomes more and more evident what a fraud this man was! I am finally free of Islam, which to me was a cancer that I was cured of! And that's how I feel about religion as a whole.

Regarding your second point about Mohammed's lovers. First of all, the figure "2 billion" is far from true. There are countries like Iran where most people assume has a 99% Muslim population, where in fact the majority of the Iranian people (not their government) despise Islam. It was a religion forced onto their ancestors! Secondly, so what if Billions love Mohammed, most of them live in poor countries where the level of education is so low that they cannot even understand anything aside from what they are told from birth. The percentage of educated practicing Muslims compared to those living in conditions where they have no choice but to accept Islam is so low! Numbers mean nothing when the majority are poor and uneducated, hence unable to gain enough knowledge to understand how terrible religion is!

So how many lovers and followers are to Hitler ?

You didn't reply about yourself,if you think that you are better than Mohammed PBUH or maybe you can be a hero from now by typing some nonsense words while you're laying at bed.

 

[Assad91]

My argument is that we should all look at reality and not let others fool us. Basically marrying 4 woman at the same time and marrying a child is wrong! We can't just say respect their beliefs, it's wrong and it's awful! I think it's time to make this distinction. We can't just respect everything because it's someone's beliefs!

Marrying children... read this article Distinguishing Culture from Religion Concerning Marriage - Social Life - counsels - OnIslam.net

 

[England my lionheart]

Keep in mind we are not discussing a common representative man of his time but a representative of God on Earth. Biblical prophets made their share of mistakes but all rolled into one they did not commit the atrocities Muhammad did, nor did Muhammad complete the great acts any one of them did. Biblical prophets also had another advantage. They could demonstrate the origin of their message by performing supernatural acts. Muhammad would not even do so when challenged. Any God that sent that man has a lot of explaining to do.

I have no belief in Prophets or miracles they are supposed to have performed,i think though that Islam,when taking everything into consideration like plagiarism,whats actually written in the Qur'an that it is a book authored solely by Humans,perhaps the companions of Muhammed had a hand in it,obviously someone told Muhammed the Satanic verses were not a good idea.

 

[1robin]

So how many lovers and followers are to Hitler ?

What did this mean?
I am not sure where Hitler came from but do you know how many Muslim divisions fought for him and how many people they killed?

You didn't reply about yourself, if you think that you are better than Mohammed PBUH or maybe you can be a hero from now by typing some nonsense words while you're laying at bed.

1. 99% of humanity did not kill anyone. He did
2. 99% of humanity did not fight over 60 battles, raid caravans for loot, and murder people who opposed them. He did.
3. 99% of humanity did not chop off heads, feet, and hands. He did.
4. 99% of humanity did not foam at the mouth, make animal noises, shake uncontrollably and claim to visited by Gabriel which acted completely the opposite when calling Biblical prophets.
6. 99% of humanity did not reveal words from God and then later claim they came from Satan. He did.
7. 99% of Humanity did not lie and invent a claim that Abraham built the Kaaba (actually built 1000 years after Abraham died). He did.
8. 99% of humanity did not invent Christianity by "making it appear they had killed Jesus" and then condemn them for the faith he invented. Allah did according to the Quran.
9. 99% of humanity does not claim to be a prophet but without that ability to do miracles as all previous actual prophets. He did.
10. 99% of humanity did not marry adolescent girls and the wives of people they had killed. He did.

I can keep going for quite a while but there is little point.

 

[1robin]

I have no belief in Prophets or miracles they are supposed to have performed,i think though that Islam,when taking everything into consideration like plagiarism,whats actually written in the Qur'an that it is a book authored solely by Humans,perhaps the companions of Muhammed had a hand in it,obviously someone told Muhammed the Satanic verses were not a good idea.

That is certainly your right, however the context Muhammad is evaluated within is that of a prophet. I agree with your estimation about the Quran. It bears every single hallmark of a man made religion of convenience and that is why the context Muhammad is evaluated in is so important.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Well I provided a little of the evidence for this concerning the Quran and you would have to do so for the Bible in order for your claim to be evaluated. I will say one thing in general in respose to your general comment. I assume you are speaking about the NT. At the time the NT was written the one thing you would do if you wanted your (made up) religion to be rejected and yourself probably killed or expelled was to import another religion's teachings. Israel’s history was fraught with their "whoring" after other Gods and being punished severely for it time after time. By this time they had finally learned and ruthlessly resisted and rooted out all foreign theological influence. They would not tolerate anything that even sounded the least bit foreign and expelled anyone suspected of it, even entire groups of people. The Essenes are an example. They did not even import anything, they simply had an unorthodox view of scripture and they were ostracized. Many of them went to Arabia and their heretical teachings would up in the Quran. That being said give me specific examples and I will evaluate your claim.

I'm sure you've seen probably most of the claims that Christianity borrowed a good bit of it's ideas from surrounding pagan practices, so I'm not going to dredge on about it here. I was just making the statement that, while many, particularly Christians, make the claim that Islam borrowed from Arab pagan sources, the same claim has been made about Christianity borrowing from Greek, Egyptian, etc. I wasn't making the claim whether it was true or not, just that the charge has been leveled, and those who make that charge have evidence.

 

[dynavert2012]

i think you have islamophopia.

by the way you have to know that Mohamed didn't seek to marry Aisha, but her father who seek that and the prophet who postpond the marriage for 3 years.

and let's ask was Aisha happy with the prophet or not? can you tell us about what you read for that question?

 

[YmirGF]

i think you have islamophopia.

Islam-o-what-ia? :flirt:

 

[1robin]

Islam-o-what-ia? :flirt:

It is a term that means you are claiming truths that are inconvenient for Muslims.

 

[1robin]

I'm sure you've seen probably most of the claims that Christianity borrowed a good bit of it's ideas from surrounding pagan practices, so I'm not going to dredge on about it here. I was just making the statement that, while many, particularly Christians, make the claim that Islam borrowed from Arab pagan sources, the same claim has been made about Christianity borrowing from Greek, Egyptian, etc. I wasn't making the claim whether it was true or not, just that the charge has been leveled, and those who make that charge have evidence.

If you are referring to parallelism as in Horace and Jesus, etc…it is founded in ignorance. Admittedly on the surface there are a few similarities but when the entire context is brought into the light the similarities are outnumbered by the dissimilarities many times over. If you wish to pick one (the best you know of) we can let it settle the issue. I was originally kind of intimidated by this concept but with a little research these similarities disappear in a sea of mutually exclusive contradictions so vast it quickly becomes obvious the apostles borrowed from no outside theology. BTW since most of these stories are concerning the same issues, death, after life, God etc it is impossible that there will not be some superficial similarities of some type but that is not what I claim concerning Islam. I claim they lifted almost word for word teachings known to be in the heretical infancy Gospels, the protavelum of James and the apocalypse of Peter among many. Not similarities but exact matches in vast detail.

 

[England my lionheart]

i think you have islamophopia.

by the way you have to know that Mohamed didn't seek to marry Aisha, but her father who seek that and the prophet who postpond the marriage for 3 years.

and let's ask was Aisha happy with the prophet or not? can you tell us about what you read for that question?

Something I never understood was the use of hadith,this is from sahih Bukhari of course

Narrated by 'Ursa

The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."​

 

[Assad91]

I find it funny thay a Christian is saying Prophet Muhammad (saws) is evil for fighting. Even when in the Jewish scripture Moses (as), Joshua(as), David(as), and Elisha(as) all killed. Joshua even laid waste to a whole citu! Samuel waged war as did David. Elisha killed children. Sons of Jacob massarcerd a whole city when the men were unable to fight due to circumcision.

With your logic, they are evil too! And I didnt even mention half of the people incljding Abraham!