• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Was Muhammad a good man?

What is your opinion on Muhammad?

  • He was a great man and those who insult him must be punished!

    Votes: 60 27.9%
  • He was a great man, but people are free to insult him

    Votes: 47 21.9%
  • He was not a good man, but we should respect him because I believe in respecting other religions

    Votes: 23 10.7%
  • He was a terrible man and we should condemn his awful actions!

    Votes: 85 39.5%

  • Total voters
    215

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
@ 1robin

Who told you that we care about such nonsense and false stories about prophet Mohammed PBUH that you copy and paste,

Tell me where in the history that people can love the looter or the murderer or the gangster or the rapist,if you tell us just one name,then i'll agree with you that it can be that 2 billions can love similarly a bad guy,just tell me one guy from the history,if you don't have any one,then i think this discussion which you are offering to show prophet Mohammed PBUH as a bad guy is a stupid and absurd one.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Who said to you that we care about such nonsense and false stories about prophet Mohammed PBUH,
No one did.

Tell me where in the history that people can love the looter or the murderer or the gangster or the rapist,if you tell us just one name, then I’ll agree with you that it can be that 2 billions can love similarly a bad guy
History is packed full of these people. Jessie James, every drug addicted immoral rock star in history, Barack Obama, every (bad) General who won battles, this is silly the list is endless. I imagine most do not love him at all. It is hard enough to love those we know.


just tell me one guy from the history, if you don't have any one, then I think this discussion which you are offering to show prophet Mohammed PBUH as a bad guy is a stupid and absurd one.
Since I did show several, then he must be as I claim, if you are consistent.


 
Last edited by a moderator:

1robin

Christian/Baptist
@ 1robin

Who told you that we care about such nonsense and false stories about prophet Mohammed PBUH that you copy and paste,

Tell me where in the history that people can love the looter or the murderer or the gangster or the rapist,if you tell us just one name,then i'll agree with you that it can be that 2 billions can love similarly a bad guy,just tell me one guy from the history,if you don't have any one,then i think this discussion which you are offering to show prophet Mohammed PBUH as a bad guy is a stupid and absurd one.
I already have but will give you more. Over 80% of Germans loved Hitler in 1940. BTW do you know how many Muslim divisions of the Wauffen SS there were? Do you know how many people they killed in genocidal massacres for Hitler? Also the worst tyrant in history (Stalin) was beloved by millions. Now will you be consistent with your own logic and there for admit I was right about Muhammad? I won't hold my breath.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
No one did.

True history

ٍSo how you know the true from the fake history ?

Now some are saying that Jesus was a liar whereas other stories are saying he was the prophet or the son or even God,so how you know the true from the fake.

Tell me,How did you know that your story about the prophet is the true one and ours is the fake one?



History is packed full of these people. Jessie James, every drug addicted immoral rock star in history, Barack Obama, every (bad) General who won battles, this is silly the list is endless. I imagine most do not love him at all. It is hard enough to love those we know.

Jessie James ,Barack Obama . :biglaugh:

Since I did show several, then he must be as I claim, if you are consistent.

What did you show ? i think you showed nothing but nonsense.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I already have but will give you more. Over 80% of Germans loved Hitler in 1940. BTW do you know how many Muslim divisions of the Wauffen SS there were? Do you know how many people they killed in genocidal massacres for Hitler? Also the worst tyrant in history (Stalin) was beloved by millions. Now will you be consistent with your own logic and there for admit I was right about Muhammad? I won't hold my breath.

Hitler is loved by the Germans as Mohammed is loved by muslims.

OMG,you did know the hearts of the Germans and found out that over 80% loved him.

Please show your source that over 80% of Germans loved Hitler and how many in the world that love Hitler nowadays,thousands,millions or billions.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
True history
That is exactly what post #361 and #362 contained.

ٍSo how you know the true from the fake history ?
What is your contention? Forget about the past, no one can possibly know what happened. I do it the same way any other person would. Look at what facts exist, what their based on, why they are claimed, etc..... The consistent facts are not on Muhammad’s side. That is probably why Islam yells foul every time they hear something they do not like and instead of showing it wrong. Read the above posts again and tell me what is wrong with what I said. I only gave a very small percent of the unbiased evidence that shows without Doubt Muhammad was a blood thirsty tyrant at times and Allah had little to do with what he did. Do you know where the word Jihad actually got started? It was a label used to justify stealing what Caravans carried and was a practice common to Arabia well before Muhammad showed up. Since neither you nor (anyone else) has even attempted to show anything in those posts wrong they stand as is. My sources were mostly Islamic with a few non-Christians.
Now some are saying that Jesus was a liar whereas other stories are saying he was the prophet or the son or even God,so how you know the true from the fake.
I will use Islam's claims as an example of how wrong these claims are.
1. Islam claims Christ was not crucified yet every contemporary account in existence says he was. No reasonable historian who ever lived would believe that the claims of a man 500 years after events were right yet every single claim of the time was wrong. That is nonsense. Earlier is always better for historical texts as long as new information was not discovered. Muhammad discovered nothing besides what he wished was true. Every fact available suggests Christ died.
2. Islam claims the Bible is corrupt but has no list of what these verses are and has no copy of the original verses to compare them to. In fact in Muhammad's day not a single verse could have been shown to be incorrect yet it was the Bible that was to judge the Quran not the other way around. This corruption garbage was invented later to explain why the Bible DOES NOT validate the Quran. I have never even heard a single Muslim give a valid way to know what Bible verses are corrupt even if they are. In fact the only explanation I have ever heard is if it does not agree with the Quran it is corrupt. That is absurd and obnoxious lunacy and then those same people yell bias.
Tell me,How did you know that your story about the prophet is the true one and ours is the fake one?
Well I personally used the Bible as a spiritual roadmap and found exactly what it promised, salvation. I spiritually experienced Christ as a risen savior. However you will hand waive that away so I will say that the best explanation of the most reliable facts is that Christ is who the Bible claims he is. The majority of NT scholars ON BOTH SIDES agree that:
1. He appeared in history with unprecedented divine authority.
2. He was crucified and died on the cross.
3. The tomb was found empty.
That is Christianity’s core and unlike Islam's narrative also what history shows.I have no beheadings, no massacres, no chopping off hands, no stealing from caravans, no curses placed on him, no Satanic verses uttered in desperation, no historical inaccuracies, and no symptoms of demonic possession to explain away for Christ. Instead I have miracles, independent testimony, historical confirmation, and personal experience that confirms the Bible but not Muhammad’s prophethood.
Jessie James ,Barack Obama .
Actually both are true but Obama is a little controversial. However Jessie James was a cold blooded and murderous as anyone has ever been and was absolutely worshiped by poor southerners. I bet you know very little about him. I know plenty and have been to his grave and the house he was shot in.

What did you show ? I think you showed nothing but nonsense.
Who could argue with such scholarship. This is embarrassing. As I said post #361 and #362 are undeniable history and until you even attempt to contend them they stand as is. However I will probably post another dozen or so of Muhammad’s murders next since no one seems able to even attempt an explanation of those posts.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Hitler is loved by the Germans as Mohammed is loved by Muslims.
I knew you were not going to honor your own logic.

1. You never said "loved as much or like Muhammad". You said loved.
2. Since I met your demands as stated, and that is inconvenient, you are having to invent new requirements after the fact. Is this type of reasoning really what you risk your soul on?
3. You said not one person who was a liar or murderer was ever loved. That alone is just silly. You also said that if I could not produce one that my claims were wrong. By that bizarre logic if I did produce one my claims were accurate.
4. I knew you would never go along with your own statements so I made sure to indicate what your reasoning meant. You still denied it.
5. I posted not one but hundreds (some were plural). Yet you do not show honor and admit being wrong. You changed the request into something so absurd that that was probably the point.
OMG,you did know the hearts of the Germans and found out that over 80% loved him.
I suppose all those films with tens of thousands chanting they loved Hitler were invented to be inconvenient to you. The fact that he was universally approved of in Germany is a historical fact so well documented that it is beyond contention and reveals historical ignorance. BTW you did not answer my questions about Muslims fighting for Hitler. Did you simply block that out as well?

Please show your source that over 80% of Germans loved Hitler and how many in the world that love Hitler nowadays,thousands,millions or billions.
No, I met your original demands and requirements I will not be made to show stats to justify whatever new demands you construct at will. I will make a deal with you though that you should have honored without my asking. If I show that the majority of Germans approved of Hitler then will you do what you should have done and admit that by your logic my claims are valid and stop inventing more and more irrelevant and irrational demands for silly unrelated garbage?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
That is exactly what post #361 and #362 contained.

Your post can't be discussed because it is based on false stories.

Show me just one verse in the quran that ordered Mohammed PBUH to fight for looting the disbelievers.

What is your contention? Forget about the past, no one can possibly know what happened. I do it the same way any other person would. Look at what facts exist, what their based on, why they are claimed, etc..... The consistent facts are not on Muhammad’s side. That is probably why Islam yells foul every time they hear something they do not like and instead of showing it wrong. Read the above posts again and tell me what is wrong with what I said. I only gave a very small percent of the unbiased evidence that shows without Doubt Muhammad was a blood thirsty tyrant at times and Allah had little to do with what he did. Do you know where the word Jihad actually got started? It was a label used to justify stealing what Caravans carried and was a practice common to Arabia well before Muhammad showed up. Since neither you nor (anyone else) has even attempted to show anything in those posts wrong they stand as is. My sources were mostly Islamic with a few non-Christians.

So what is your evidence that your stories are the true one ?

What i got from you is bla bla bla bla ........


I will use Islam's claims as an example of how wrong these claims are.
1. Islam claims Christ was not crucified yet every contemporary account in existence says he was. No reasonable historian who ever lived would believe that the claims of a man 500 years after events were right yet every single claim of the time was wrong. That is nonsense. Earlier is always better for historical texts as long as new information was not discovered. Muhammad discovered nothing besides what he wished was true. Every fact available suggests Christ died.
2. Islam claims the Bible is corrupt but has no list of what these verses are and has no copy of the original verses to compare them to. In fact in Muhammad's day not a single verse could have been shown to be incorrect yet it was the Bible that was to judge the Quran not the other way around. This corruption garbage was invented later to explain why the Bible DOES NOT validate the Quran. I have never even heard a single Muslim give a valid way to know what Bible verses are corrupt even if they are. In fact the only explanation I have ever heard is if it does not agree with the Quran it is corrupt. That is absurd and obnoxious lunacy and then those same people yell bias
.

Not only muslims say that the bible was corrupted.

IMHO every christian who converted to atheism is because the bible makes no sense and the atheists in Europe in my expectations are much more than the christians even though that both are the same except Jesus will forgive who believed on him,drink,steal.....and god will forgive only the christian.

Well I personally used the Bible as a spiritual roadmap and found exactly what it promised, salvation. I spiritually experienced Christ as a risen savior. However you will hand waive that away so I will say that the best explanation of the most reliable facts is that Christ is who the Bible claims he is. The majority of NT scholars ON BOTH SIDES agree that:
1. He appeared in history with unprecedented divine authority.
2. He was crucified and died on the cross.
3. The tomb was found empty.
That is Christianity’s core and unlike Islam's narrative also what history shows.I have no beheadings, no massacres, no chopping off hands, no stealing from caravans, no curses placed on him, no Satanic verses uttered in desperation, no historical inaccuracies, and no symptoms of demonic possession to explain away for Christ. Instead I have miracles, independent testimony, historical confirmation, and personal experience that confirms the Bible but not Muhammad’s prophethood.

it seems that you only believe half the bible.

And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. -- Genesis 22:10

Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8

"I will destroy ... both man and beast."
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17

"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4

"All flesh died that moved upon the earth."
God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23

God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10

Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking. 2:11-12

God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26

To see more verses from the bible : Cruelty and Violence


Actually both are true but Obama is a little controversial. However Jessie James was a cold blooded and murderous as anyone has ever been and was absolutely worshiped by poor southerners. I bet you know very little about him. I know plenty and have been to his grave and the house he was shot in.

What a silly comparison.

Who could argue with such scholarship. This is embarrassing. As I said post #361 and #362 are undeniable history and until you even attempt to contend them they stand as is. However I will probably post another dozen or so of Muhammad’s murders next since no one seems able to even attempt an explanation of those posts.

Post as much as you wish,who cares.
 
Last edited:

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Your post can't be discussed because it is based on false stories.
Since you did not bother to show them false they stand as is.

Show me just one verse in the Quran that ordered Mohammed PBUH to fight for looting the disbelievers.
That is kind of the point. Muhammad’s own companions said he heard that certain caravans were full of loot so he attacked them. The Quran says things much worse than to steal but even it did not justify Muhammad’s theft. The Quran is not the arbiter of all truth (thank God it isn't even true), history is, and Muhammad's countless raids for loot are so well known they can't be denied (or should not be).
So what is your evidence that your stories are the true one ?
The fact every non-Islamic (and many Islamic ones) say the same thing. His companions confirmed most of them and there are far too many to all be wrong.
What i got from you is bla bla bla bla ........
Of course you do. That is all you want to hear. This discussion is pointless , you simply deny (without even attempting to show) anything you do not like.
Not only muslims say that the bible was corrupted.
That was not the point. The Bible is corrupted. Between .05% and 5% scribal error. However we have only been able to determine that from modern computer analysis. (Even critics like Ehrman say there is not one error in essential doctrine unlike Islam claims). My point was not that the Bible is perfect. No book on Earth, especially the Quran is. My point was Muhammad claimed things that at the time he had no possible way to know and even if he did no one else had any way to follow his instructions. Claiming X is corrupt without any evidence or producing a list of the corrupt verses is not something a God would do. It is something ignorant Arabians would do once they realized the Bible condemned the Quran. BTW the reason we know the Bible has errors is because it has a textual tradition far greater than even the much later Quran. There was no Uthman to burn all the Bible’s, there was no forced control over content mandated by people for political reasons, and there was explosive and early copying. So now we know what mistakes were made and why and they are all footnoted in all modern Bible’s. The Bible is also the work of many authors which means all would have to have been wrong. The Quran has one very suspicious author who if wrong the entire Quran would be. No one on Earth knows what the Quran originally said nor ever will.
IMHO every Christian who converted to atheism is because the bible makes no sense and the atheists in Europe in my expectations are much more than the Christians even though that both are the same except Jesus will forgive who believed on him,drink,steal.....and god will forgive only the christian.
You deny my actual history and substitute an opinion without any evidence that is absolutely wrong on top of that and expect it to make a difference. For a book that specifically says to not steal, not get drunk your conclusions are deplorable.
it seems that you only believe half the bible.
That makes no sense. I said NT scholars on both sides believe the core historical facts of Christianity are true. I did not mention the other 99.9% of the Bible.
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. -- Genesis 22:10
Is this one of the good ones or is this one of the ones Islam does not like and so claims is corrupt? How can you possibly know?
Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8
What does this have to do with anything?
I suppose in your omniscience you would not have done so. Thereby leaving the world to suffer a thousand generations of people who's only thoughts were evil (you left that out). So you would have left us in oppression, slavery, murder, prostitution, and the constant warfare that generation produced and would have kept producing if God had not stopped it. Nice job. I am glad your not running anything. If you had been paying attention you would have noticed that I have said over and over that God may kill and be justified. What Muhammad did was not, nor was it from any God. God does not kill 800 helpless Jews and shove them in a pit because they did not live up to a treaty Muhammad had forced on them, God does not kill poets because that write things he does not like, and he does use theft as a motivation for killing.
God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10
First what does what happened 4000 years ago have to do with Muhammad? Is he inoscent because Abraham killed 5 animals? You have spoken on every subject known except Muhammad. I also noticed you used one of the most biased sources there is. I will not yell bias and dismiss your claims as you would however your using biased sites and yelling bias is hypocritical. The sacrifice of animals and the blood of animals are symbolic in the OT of what Christ would do in the NT. Look up types and shadows. Also if God desires to destroy what he created what business is that of yours and on what basis may you judge him? Muhammad did not create anything but misery and was only a very flawed human and being so is open to judgment. Equating two things that are about as far from equal as possible is only a diversion and means nothing. I have not argued that Allah should not have killed because if Allah exists (thank God he does not) then on what basis may I judge him.
Continued below for no reason whatever:
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking. 2:11-12
God allowed Moses to be punished and almost die for his act even though it was an act in defense of an innocent Israelite and therefor just. I will make another deal and I will actually back mine up. If you can show Muhammad parted the red sea or did anything like Moses did to demostrate the God he served, then I will not complain if he killed someone to defend one of his followers. Actually I would not criticise Muhammad for doing that anyway, it is just. However since Muhammad never demonstrated his supernatural source or prophethood even when asked to, it is hardly a comparison worth making.
God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26
First of all, Moses was not killed by God. Second, Moses punishment was that he could not enter the land of Israel. Third, his punishment was for a great many sins (usually starting with his water from the rock mistake). You really butchered this story.
To see more verses from the bible : Cruelty and Violence
Have I ever once said violence did not exist inthe Bible. Or has it once had anything to do with Muhammad in a Muhammad thread. This is pure diversion.
What a silly comparison.
How can a comparison never made by silly? You said (and it seems you are backing out of it as fast as possible) for me to post someone who was a killer and a thief but who was loved. I did so, that being inconvenient for you are now attempting to divert the conversation from where you steered it to begin with and mention stories that have nothing to do with anything. I fully expect baseball scores as an argument next.
Post as much as you wish,who cares.
This is meaningless. You back out of your own challenges, discuss anything and everything but Muhammad, dismiss historical facts because you do not like them. Claim bias and then use the most biased sites possible, and never ever offer or even attempt to show any historical claim I made was wrong. Cognitive dissonance is impervious to reason and facts and renders discussions pointless. Since you will discuss anything )no matter how irrelevant and mistaken( besides Muhammad and what I posted there is little point is this debate.
 
Last edited:

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
@ 1robin

You want us to discuss with you about stories.

stories can never be a fact without a tangible evidences.

Now for example i said i saw Mr. "A" killing Mr. "B",so what,that is my story,can it be a fact without any evidence.

What do you want us to discuss ? how silly it is.

What about to prove that God does exist only because the stories are telling so.

OK,enjoy posting the stories,but don't expect someone to entertain it because it is just stories.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Where is this "correct" history that allows you to claim this?

The history about Muhammad and His time is not quite accurately and correctly recorded. It is spread all over place as Islam is divided in many sects, and each sect has their own historical and recorded Hadith and traditions about Muhammad and early Muslims. The task to clearly come up with a correct history is extremly difficault. Even the Muslims themselves cannot agree on it.
To Baha'is a new Revelation has come, and part of Baha'i Revelation is to correct the wrong views of people about history of previous Prophets.
As For Muhammad, the following description is brief but in our view is sufficient to correct the wrong views:

"Americans and Europeans have heard a number of stories about the Prophet which they have thought to be true, although the narrators were either ignorant or antagonistic: most of them were clergy; others were ignorant Muslims who repeated unfounded traditions about Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad which they ignorantly believed to be to His praise.

Thus some benighted Muslims made His polygamy the pivot of their praises and held it to be a wonder, regarding it as a miracle; and European historians, for the most part, rely on the tales of these ignorant people.

For example, a foolish man said to a clergyman that the true proof of greatness is bravery and the shedding of blood, and that in one day on the field of battle a follower of Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad had cut off the heads of one hundred men! This misled the clergyman to infer that killing is considered the way to prove one’s faith to Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad, while this is merely imaginary. The military expeditions of Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad, on the contrary, were always defensive actions: a proof of this is that during thirteen years, in Mecca, He and His followers endured the most violent persecutions. At this period they were the target for the arrows of hatred: some of His companions were killed and their property confiscated; others fled to foreign lands. Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad Himself, after the most extreme persecutions by the Qurayshites, who finally resolved to kill Him, fled to Medina in the middle of the night. Yet even then His enemies did not cease their persecutions, but pursued Him to Medina, and His disciples even to Abyssinia.

These Arab tribes were in the lowest depths of savagery and barbarism, and in comparison with them the savages of Africa and wild Indians of America were as advanced as a Plato. The savages of America do not bury their children alive as these Arabs did their daughters, glorying in it as being an honorable thing to do.* Thus many of the men would threaten their wives, saying, "If a daughter is born to you, I will kill you." Even down to the present time the Arabs dread having daughters. Further, a man was permitted to take a thousand women, and most husbands had more than ten wives in their household. When these tribes made war, the one which was victorious would take the women and children of the vanquished tribe captive and treat them as slaves.
When a man who had ten wives died, the sons of these women rushed at each other’s mothers; and if one of the sons threw his mantle over the head of his father’s wife and cried out, "This woman is my lawful property," at once the unfortunate woman became his prisoner and slave. He could do whatever he wished with her. He could kill her, imprison her in a well, or beat, curse and torture her until death released her. According to the Arab habits and customs, he was her master. It is evident that malignity, jealousy, hatred and enmity must have existed between the wives and children of a household, and it is, therefore, needless to enlarge upon the subject. Again, consider what was the condition and life of these oppressed women! Moreover, the means by which these Arab tribes lived consisted in pillage and robbery, so that they were perpetually engaged in fighting and war, killing one another, plundering and devastating each other’s property, and capturing women and children, whom they would sell to strangers. How often it happened that the daughters and sons of a prince, who spent their day in comfort and luxury, found themselves, when night fell, reduced to shame, poverty and captivity. Yesterday they were princes, today they are captives; yesterday they were great ladies, today they are slaves.

Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad received the Divine Revelation among these tribes, and after enduring thirteen years of persecution from them, He fled.* But this people did not cease to oppress; they united to exterminate Him and all His followers. It was under such circumstances that Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad was forced to take up arms. This is the truth: we are not bigoted and do not wish to defend Him, but we are just, and we say what is just. Look at it with justice. If Christ Himself had been placed in such circumstances among such tyrannical and barbarous tribes, and if for thirteen years He with His disciples had endured all these trials with patience, culminating in flight from His native land—if in spite of this these lawless tribes continued to pursue Him, to slaughter the men, to pillage their property, and to capture their women and children—what would have been Christ’s conduct with regard to them? If this oppression had fallen only upon Himself, He would have forgiven them, and such an act of forgiveness would have been most praiseworthy; but if He had seen that these cruel and bloodthirsty murderers wished to kill, to pillage and to injure all these oppressed ones, and to take captive the women and children, it is certain that He would have protected them and would have resisted the tyrants. What objection, then, can be taken to Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad’s action? Is it this, that He did not, with His followers, and their women and children, submit to these savage tribes? To free these tribes from their bloodthirstiness was the greatest kindness, and to coerce and restrain them was a true mercy. They were like a man holding in his hand a cup of poison, which, when about to drink, a friend breaks and thus saves him. If Christ had been placed in similar circumstances, it is certain that with a conquering power He would have delivered the men, women and children from the claws of these bloodthirsty wolves.


Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad never fought against the Christians; on the contrary, He treated them kindly and gave them perfect freedom. A community of Christian people lived at Najrán and were under His care and protection. Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad said, "If anyone infringes their rights, I Myself will be his enemy, and in the presence of God I will bring a charge against him." In the edicts which He promulgated it is clearly stated that the lives, properties and honor of the Christians and Jews are under the protection of God; and that if a Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammadan married a Christian woman, the husband must not prevent her from going to church, nor oblige her to veil herself; and that if she died, he must place her remains in the care of the Christian clergy. Should the Christians desire to build a church, Islám ought to help them. In case of war between Islám and her enemies, the Christians should be exempted from the obligation of fighting, unless they desired of their own free will to do so in defense of Islám, because they were under its protection. But as a compensation for this immunity, they should pay yearly a small sum of money. In short, there are seven detailed edicts on these subjects, some copies of which are still extant at Jerusalem. This is an established fact and is not dependent on my affirmation. The edict of the second Caliph† still exists in the custody of the orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, and of this there is no doubt. "

To be continued....
 
Last edited:

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
.....Continued

"Nevertheless, after a certain time, and through the transgression of both the Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammadans and the Christians, hatred and enmity arose between them. Beyond this fact, all the narrations of the Muslims, Christians and others are simply fabrications, which have their origin in fanaticism, or ignorance, or emanate from intense hostility. For example, the Muslims say that Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad cleft the moon, and that it fell on the mountain of Mecca: they think that the moon is a small body which Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad divided into two parts and threw one part on this mountain, and the other part on another mountain.
Such stories are pure fanaticism. Also the traditions which the clergy quote, and the incidents with which they find fault, are all exaggerated, if not entirely without foundation.

Briefly, Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad appeared in the desert of [FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]Ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ijáz in the Arabian Peninsula, which was a desolate, sterile wilderness, sandy and uninhabited. Some parts, like Mecca and Medina, are extremely hot; the people are nomads with the manners and customs of the dwellers in the desert, and are entirely destitute of education and science. Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad Himself was illiterate, and the Qur’án was originally written upon the bladebones of sheep, or on palm leaves. These details indicate the condition of the people to whom Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad was sent. The first question which He put to them was, "Why do you not accept the Pentateuch and the Gospel, and why do you not believe in Christ and in Moses?" This saying presented difficulties to them, and they argued, "Our forefathers did not believe in the Pentateuch and the Gospel; tell us, why was this?" He answered, "They were misled; you ought to reject those who do not believe in the Pentateuch and the Gospel, even though they are your fathers and your ancestors."

In such a country, and amidst such barbarous tribes, an illiterate Man produced a book in which, in a perfect and eloquent style, He explained the divine attributes and perfections, the prophethood of the Messengers of God, the divine laws, and some scientific facts.

Thus, you know that before the observations of modern times—that is to say, during the first centuries and down to the fifteenth century of the Christian era—all the mathematicians of the world agreed that the earth was the center of the universe, and that the sun moved. The famous astronomer who was the protagonist of the new theory discovered the movement of the earth and the immobility of the sun.* Until his time all the astronomers and philosophers of the world followed the Ptolemaic system, and whoever said anything against it was considered ignorant. Though Pythagoras, and Plato during the latter part of his life, adopted the theory that the annual movement of the sun around the zodiac does not proceed from the sun, but rather from the movement of the earth around the sun, this theory had been entirely forgotten, and the Ptolemaic system was accepted by all mathematicians. But there are some verses revealed in the Qur’án contrary to the theory of the Ptolemaic system. One of them is "The sun moves in a fixed place," which shows the fixity of the sun, and its movement around an axis.† Again, in another verse, "And each star moves in its own heaven."‡ Thus is explained the movement of the sun, of the moon, of the earth, and of other bodies. When the Qur’án appeared, all the mathematicians ridiculed these statements and attributed the theory to ignorance. Even the doctors of Islám, when they saw that these verses were contrary to the accepted Ptolemaic system, were obliged to explain them away.
It was not until after the fifteenth century of the Christian era, nearly nine hundred years after Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad, that a famous astronomer made new observations and important discoveries by


the aid of the telescope, which he had invented.* The rotation of the earth, the fixity of the sun, and also its movement around an axis, were discovered. It became evident that the verses of the Qur’án agreed with existing facts, and that the Ptolemaic system was imaginary.​


In short, many Oriental peoples have been reared for thirteen centuries under the shadow of the religion of Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad. During the Middle Ages, while Europe was in the lowest depths of barbarism, the Arab peoples were superior to the other nations of the earth in learning, in the arts, mathematics, civilization, government and other sciences. The Enlightener and Educator of these Arab tribes, and the Founder of the civilization and perfections of humanity among these different races, was an illiterate Man, Mu[FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman][FONT=Times Ext Roman,Times Ext Roman]ḥ[/FONT][/FONT]ammad. Was this illustrious Man a thorough Educator or not? A just judgment is necessary."

Abdulbaha - Some Answered Questions, p.10-13

 
Last edited:

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
All the prophets who could demonstrate their supernatural source came from one line, neither Muhammad nor the Bahaullah belonged to it. They say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. My prophets were parting seas and coming back from the dead, until Muhammad or the Bab can do anything like this why in the world would I believe them.

Well, it is not your Prophets versus our Prophets. Moses, Jesus, and previous Prophets are our Prophets too. As regards to the Miracles that you have believed they performed, in our view, they are symbolic and have spiritual meanings. Christ said,"A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miracle".
The Bible was sealed with seven seales, and only the Propmised One could unseal it. Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Promise. It will remain sealed to those who do not believe and persist in their own literal and man-made interpretations.
Can you post the exact nature of Christ as the Baha'i claim it to be?
Not in this thread, as it is related to Muhammad. But there is no difference between Jesus and Muhammad in our view. Both were previous Manifestations of God. In this Age however, Baha'u'llah is Manifestation of God, who brought New Teachings.
 
Last edited:

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I have never really made an argument that any religion produces science. It is however intuitive the think that the one true religion should produce very good scientists. It is also mandatory that if that books speaks to science that it be accurate. Outside this I make few claims and have only been responding to claims by others about science.



That would only be true if God was in fact trapped by circumstances. The Bible is full of God winning battles without any Earthly reason for victory. He scatters armies and annihilates empires without the need for human military effort many times. The only context a God can be limited to is his own personal revelation. The Biblical prophets and the stories about them are saturated with God's actions and demonstrations. Muhammad's are saturated with pettiness, jealousy, an almost moral insanity, human weakness and fear, inconsistency, and viciousness. Most lack even a logical motivation for Allah. Muhammad simply celebrates at times on hearing a man who was never ordered to be killed was hacked to pieces, he mutilated men that were no threat to anyone, and he even killed poets because he did not like what they said. It is not any God that deserves worship that would order those actions nor is there any evidence he did so. God of course has the right to kill but it is what context it is done that a prophet must be examined. If we were discussing the military merits of commanders then your context is appropriate but not a prophet of an almighty God. Ponder this: in the first 13 peaceful years of Islam Muhammad acquired less than 150 followers, in the next 10 blood soaked years he acquired about 100,000. Now our mission is to determine whether that is more consistent with a divine message from God or the fact that booty, power, and revenge made Muhammad and Islam grow. Christianity on the other hand exploded after its prophet (who never harmed a soul and was sinless) conquered death itself and while being persecuted by the most powerful empire on Earth. Which one looks divine? Mine based in the conquoring of death, theirs is based on causing it.

I love all those stories of God miracles and Prophets,its difficult to judge which religion of the two have caused the most harm,theres been multitude of claimed prophets,this claim is always made by Humans,Muhammed was a product of his time IMO.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I myself treasure the Qur'an, Islam and of course Muhammad yet I am by no means a Muslim in a normal sense. I am far too much of a rationalist to accept superstition. I will provide this argument on behalf of Muhammad and his works as a man and not a prophet.

"A close scrutiny of the Vedas as well as the Muslim Quran, the Christian Bible and the Jewish Old Testament and the Book of Moses makes it clear that the so-called divinely written or sent religious scriptures are man-made. No doubt, these scriptures have unprecedented historical and literary value. It is also admissible that these scriptures are a treasure house of words, worthy of respect and deep study…But they are not literally true. Several stories (in them) are purely imaginary! What does not stand the test of scientific reason ought to be verily discarded even if it appears in the Vedas, Avesta, Qur'an, Bible, Book of Moses and the like. It is not true that an age of yore is necessarily an age of truth! It is incorrect to think that everything that is ancient is necessarily sacred and worthy of worship." Vinayak Damodar Savarkar

Vinayak spoke mountains of wisdom about religious dogma and their creation by men, good men at that. Muhammad was an amazing person throughout history. People accuse him of death and violence but what they fail to realize is that he did not nearely do as much as other conquers have done before and after him. I can plaster the picture of Genghis Khan all over a wall and people will view him as an enlightening character despite what he did. This is a man who irreparably altered the gene pool throughout all of northern China to Ukraine. He perfected genocide the same way Tesla perfected the light bulb. Muhammad was no different yet he is hated for killing 1/5 the people Khan did and I am unsure on whether it is 1/5 or 1/100 still. Genghis Khan is treated like a historic hero and amazing figure in history and Muhammad is called "a butcher".
The thing though is that Muhammad took a bad situation and made it better. He did not solve the violence in the Arab territories permanently or stop it altogether but he is actually responsible for the unity they do have now. Islam did spread WAY past its use but that is not Muhammad's fault.
The Qur'an is written by a man not a prophet and it is not the absolute word of god. Muhammad copied from the Bible and Tanakh, yes. But I do not view it as negative whatsoever. He corrected the Bible and its polytheism and removed the "only for Jews" aspect out of the Tanakh and created something that in all honesty made a LOT MORE SENSE than either book. The Qur'an has numerous elements of myths and superstitions yes but it is no different than any other holy book. The irrelevant parts of the Qur'an can be removed because it is not an infallible book and because it is old doesn't make it holy. It is a book based on tribal customs and nothing is wrong with that. It is a book that also speaks much logic about the nature of god and even I myself admit that 90% of my viewpoints about god are directly inspired by the Quran.
Islam is a a perfected religion but it is not perfect. All religions are from man and are nothing but personal opinions of men. Just like a political party or a leader, one cannot agree with EVERYTHING they say. The same applies for the Qur'an, Kit'tub al-Sittah and ahadith forming the Sunnah.
In all honesty I feel like more of a Muslim than most Muslims. A Muslim is a submitter to Allah. So am I because I am a submitter to al-Hakim....The Most Wise. Any wise deity would not make such absurdities in a book and if he is al-Alim then surely he would have done a better job forming a religion and bring it to mankind.
There is nothing wrong with Muhammad's character because he is a product of his own era and culture. He is no different than the Greek and Roman conquerors of the past who we view as "intellectuals".
 
Last edited:

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
According to Baha'i everyone has distorted everything,
well, the Bible writings may be divided into three type of writings.
Some are ethical and spiritual teachings. Be kind to your neighbor. Some are social laws in the form of Do and Don't. Thou shall not kill, shall not steal. These two type of writings are clear in most cases and they are understood literally, and almost everyone would agree what they mean.
But there are other parts of the Book that are about spiritual mysteries, such as resurrection and prophecies of future. These type of writings are written symbolically with figurative and spiritual meanings which are veiled. These are the type of writings that the Christians could not agree on their interpretations, and that the Bible in Old testament and New Testament have in Four places said such words: "The Book is Sealed till the time of End, when the Promised One comes to unseal it"

but some guy who lived most of his life in jail and never performed a genuine miracle I am aware of and who is a virtual unknown in general, (scholars of even comparative religion seldom mention Baha’i) has resolved everything without the benefit of rigorous and long training in scholastic environments.
Well, Jesus was also from a carpenter family, and very poor. He was crucified, and it took at least 300 years for Him to be known globally. Baha'u'llah after 150 years, is already well-known in virtually ALL countries and cities. Just type Baha'u'llah in Google!
 
Last edited:

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You want us to discuss with you about stories.
stories can never be a fact without a tangible evidences.
Now for example i said i saw Mr. "A" killing Mr. "B",so what,that is my story,can it be a fact without any evidence.
What do you want us to discuss ? how silly it is.
What about to prove that God does exist only because the stories are telling so.
OK,enjoy posting the stories,but don't expect someone to entertain it because it is just stories.
So is the evidence for Caesar (He existed), so is the evidence for Thermopylae (it happened), so are the stories about Allah and Muhammad yet you believe both existed and that the stories are true. Why is it only historical claims that you do not like that all of a sudden become unreliable? My sources were either Islamic or professional historians. What they claimed is as historically valid (probably much more so that) anything in the Quran.

This is how Islam survives. It ignores or dismisses anything it does not like. It claims bias but does not prove it (or even attempt to in this case), then use biased sources themselves. They even dismiss their own hadiths if they do not like them, in fact I have seen them condemn one part of a sentence and accept the other part in a hadith. It claims inconvenient history to be just stories but never shows them inaccurate in any way. It claims facts are wrong but never posts the true facts. Claims the Bible is wrong but until recently had no way what so ever to determine which verses (if any) were corrupt. In other words it survives on non-truth. Everything I posted was as historically valid as anything in any Hadith or the Quran.

You have no made a counter argument you have refused to debate the issues. Why bother? Muhammad killed, assassinated, and tortured many people without ANY historical justification whether you dismiss it or not.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I love all those stories of God miracles and Prophets,its difficult to judge which religion of the two have caused the most harm,theres been multitude of claimed prophets,this claim is always made by Humans,Muhammed was a product of his time IMO.
It is not important which religion killed the most. God may kill us all if he exists, and be just in doing so. That is why my posts have not been about how many people Allah has wiped out. This issue is settled by context not numbers. What Muhammad did is perfectly consistent with the wishes and desires of a violent, tyrannical, and blood thirst man. The Bible's God demanded killings were justified. Muhammad killed poets because they wrote critical things of him, he beheaded hundreds of people who no threat whatever after they had surrendered, he killed for money, he killed for revenge, he even seems to have killed for pleasure. Many times he does not even attempt to use Allah to justify what he did. Muhammad's actions are very similar in nature and motivation to the Crusaders. The big difference is that most Christians condemn the crusaders and Muslims honor Muhammad and both were vicious, greedy, and brutal. BTW a prophet should be a product of God not his sinful times. Muhammad not only failed to rise above his sinful times he made his times more sinful.


As for numbers, more people were killed in one afternoon of terrorist attacks than in the entire 400 year history of the Spanish inquisition. However as far as numbers go atheists utopias are the silver medal winners, but the grand prize goes to secularists who have killed almost 1 billion babies alone.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Muhammad was an amazing person throughout history. People accuse him of death and violence but what they fail to realize is that he did not nearly do as much as other conquers have done before and after him.
Hello Archer, you must have a rolodex of avatars became I keep thinking you are new here. You did not post this to me but I wanted to point out one thing here.

I am not judging Muhammad verses other conquerors. He was neither the most brutal, the most militaristic, the most successful, nor the most skilled. Other conquerors did not claim to be prophets. I am comparing Muhammad with other prophets. Only Biblical prophets did historically reliable demonstrations of their supernatural source and they are the only one I believe were from God so it is them that I compare him to.
1. Muhammad did not come from the one and only line of prophets given in the BIble.
2. Biblical prophets did miracle after miracle to validate their claims.
3. Muhammad did nothing supernatural to justify his claim even when it was demanded of him.
4. Muhammad’s actions look exactly like what a violent, power hungry, tyrannical 7th century Arabian would. Half the time there it is not even possible to argue Allah had anything to do with what his violent acts.
5. The Quran without any doubt what so ever borrowed literally word for word from gnostic and pagan texts known to exist during his time.
6. Virtually every ceremony (prayers, pilgrimage, kissing the stone, circling the Kaaba) all were adopted from pagan practices in exact detail.
7. He suffered symptoms (admitted by his companions and wives) that are an exact match to what the Bible describes as consistent with demonic influence or possession.

IOW where ever he rates as a conqueror he is a pitiful excuse for a prophet.

No one has yet even attempted to explain this, perhaps you will.
Why were the first 13 PEACEFULL years of Islam almost devoid of recruits (less than 150)? Why were the next very violent and lucrative 10 years so much better for getting followers (over 100,000)?

The message was the same only the loot and power gained by violent and blood thirsty actions had changed? Islam was built on violence towards others. Christianity was built on the violence towards Christ. Islam converted empires by force and oppression. Christianity converted Empires that oppressed them by truth and the spirit of God. At the battle of Badr two non Muslims showed up to help so they could get some of the treasure. Muhammad said they could not fight (under a Muslim treaty condition) so they instantly converted. They are symptomatic of flocks of Arabians converting for profit and once again shows the religion was not from any God.
 
Top