Was Muhammad Schizophrenic?

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have heard of him and yes, I'm aware that schizophrenia isn't the only condition that comes with psychosis but I was responding to the title/thread. I can see your point, but if - just let's say- we take the tradition for what it says, the Qur'an took 23 years to complete. I'm not sure that a person with such mental illness would even survive 23 adult years in a desert culture with no medication at all. I could be wrong but it seems far fetched.

Ow, I'm not necessarily claiming that mohammed was a full blown schizofrenic. In fact, I think it's quite unlikely. To mention Terry Davis again... if you watch his video's, it's painfully clear that the dude has issues - regardless of his programming brilliance and ability to focus well enough to accomplish what he did. So if mohammed was like that, I'ld expect his audience to not really consider him credible...

The story of the cave appearances however... that sounds quite a lot like hallucination. But that doesn't necessarily mean he was a schizo. Indeed, perhaps he just ate hallucinogene mushrooms or something like that when he went to said cave. After the buzz, he would revert to his normal self. Or maybe the cave had gas vents that triggered those hallucinations. Or maybe he was simply lying and made it all up. Superstition also isn't really uncommon in those days, so there's that as well. Or perhaps a combination of all or some of the above.

The main point here, is that I think there is a whole range of ordinary, common, plausible explanations that are far more likely then an angel actually appearing to him to dictate the quran.

 

[firedragon]

The story of the cave appearances however... that sounds quite a lot like hallucination.

Why do you believe in this cave appearance? Im just curious.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why do you believe in this cave appearance? Im just curious.

Well, first, I don't believe it actually happened...

Secondly...

Muhammad's first revelation - Wikipedia

Muhammad's first revelation was an event described in Islam as taking place in 610 AC, during which the Islamic prophet, Muhammad was visited by the angel Jibrīl, known as Gabriel in English, who revealed to him the beginnings of what would later become the Qur’an. The event took place in a cave called Hira, located on the mountain Jabal an-Nour, near Mecca

 

[firedragon]

Well, first, I don't believe it actually happened...

If you don't believe it actually happened, on what other basis do you believe he was "Schizophrenic"?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If you don't believe it actually happened, on what other basis do you believe he was "Schizophrenic"?

1. What I don't believe is that an angel actually appeared to him. I have no particular opinion about where the story comes from. If the story isn't made up, then I believe he must have been mistaken somehow. Perhaps he hallucinated. Perhaps he was lying. Perhaps he was high on dope. All of which are more likely then it actually happening as the story states.

2. I think I was quite explicit in clarifying that I don't necessarily believe he was a schizo, nore have I ever claimed he was a schizo. However, him being a schizo is, right out the gates, more likely then angels actually appearing to him. But it certainly is not the only option.

 

[firedragon]

1. What I don't believe is that an angel actually appeared to him. I have no particular opinion about where the story comes from. If the story isn't made up, then I believe he must have been mistaken somehow. Perhaps he hallucinated. Perhaps he was lying. Perhaps he was high on dope. All of which are more likely then it actually happening as the story states.

So you do you believe in this story or not?

Your ideas of lying, hallucinating and being drugged etc are all on your stand "if the story is not made up". Hmm. Okay.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So you do you believe in this story or not?

I can only repeat my self:
- I have no particular opinion concerning the account that he actually sat in a cave and experienced something which he interpreted to be an angel appearing to him. It could be true, it could be made up. I have no issue with assuming either for the sake of argument.
- Assuming he did sit in a cave and experienced something which he interpreted to be an angel appearing before him, I don't believe an angel actually appeared before him and assume he must have been mistaken for one reason or another - there are many demonstrably plausible candidates, many examples as to how people can mistakenly believe such a thing. 0 examples of the opposite.

Your ideas of lying, hallucinating and being drugged etc are all on your stand "if the story is not made up". Hmm. Okay.

Assuming the story is not made up, those are indeed some of many plausible candidates of what actually occured.

Assuming the story is made up... well... we don't require any explanation for things that never happened, obviously.


And as I said, I have no particular opinion concerning either option - primarily because I have no way of knowing. I'm happy to assume both for the sake of discussion.

People sitting in caves isn't exactly extra-ordinary. So I'm happy to accept that at face-value as a premise for a discussion.

But do I believe it actually occured? Well, no...
As "believe" means "to accept as true". And I don't necessarily accept it as true. I have no way of knowing - so how could I accept it with such level of certainty when it could just as easily be not true?

 

[firedragon]

I can only repeat my self:
- I have no particular opinion concerning the account that he actually sat in a cave and experienced something which he interpreted to be an angel appearing to him. It could be true, it could be made up. I have no issue with assuming either for the sake of argument.
- Assuming he did sit in a cave and experienced something which he interpreted to be an angel appearing before him, I don't believe an angel actually appeared before him and assume he must have been mistaken for one reason or another - there are many demonstrably plausible candidates, many examples as to how people can mistakenly believe such a thing. 0 examples of the opposite.



Assuming the story is not made up, those are indeed some of many plausible candidates of what actually occured.

Assuming the story is made up... well... we don't require any explanation for things that never happened, obviously.


And as I said, I have no particular opinion concerning either option - primarily because I have no way of knowing. I'm happy to assume both for the sake of discussion.

People sitting in caves isn't exactly extra-ordinary. So I'm happy to accept that at face-value as a premise for a discussion.

But do I believe it actually occured? Well, no...
As "believe" means "to accept as true". And I don't necessarily accept it as true. I have no way of knowing - so how could I accept it with such level of certainty when it could just as easily be not true?

Basically your whole theory is totally built on don't know's, maybe's, if's and could be's.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have heard of him and yes, I'm aware that schizophrenia isn't the only condition that comes with psychosis but I was responding to the title/thread. I can see your point, but if - just let's say- we take the tradition for what it says, the Qur'an took 23 years to complete. I'm not sure that a person with such mental illness would even survive 23 adult years in a desert culture with no medication at all. I could be wrong but it seems far fetched.

I've also read that he couldn't read or write, so scribes wrote down his words.
So it's possible that text attributed to mentally ill "prophets" is actually the
inferences of those (healthy) scribes.

 

[Rival]

I've also read that he couldn't read or write, so scribes wrote down his words.
So it's possible that text attributed to mentally ill "prophets" is actually the
inferences of those (healthy) scribes.

I heard an interesting theory on that, since Muhammad is supposed to have written letters. The theory goes that when it was said a person couldn't read or write, it meant that the person was illiterate in the holy/sacred language of that culture, not necessarily the vernacular. So in this case, it likely meant Muhammad was illiterate in what were considered Holy Writings at that time, namely the Hebrew and Christian texts, so the inference is he couldn't read those texts but could have been literate in Arabic. This is why the Qur'an repeatedly states 'A Qur'an in Arabic' i.e., a language he and his fellows understand.

Not sure if this is true, just throwing it out there.

 

[Baroodi]

Do you believe everyone who hears the voice of God is actually speaking with God?

I suspect milder form of schizophrenia are not debilitating. They are not necessarily dangerous and like most can lead normal lives. Some just happen to have conversations with God.

Mohammed never said that. As Muslims we believe that, the only person God talked to was Mosa (Moses). I am proud my third name is Mosa

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Basically your whole theory is totally built on don't know's, maybe's, if's and could be's.

I don't have a "theory".

Rather, I'm not willing to commit to one or the other, precisly because all I have are maybe's, don't knows and if's.

If those are all you have, it doesn't exactly provide a rational basis to accept something as true..................

 

[firedragon]

I don't have a "theory".

Rather, I'm not willing to commit to one or the other, precisly because all I have are maybe's, don't knows and if's.

If those are all you have, it doesn't exactly provide a rational basis to accept something as true..................

So you don't have any theory, but a maybe, based on a don't know and don't care, yet care to make something out of nothing you have any clue of. Nice.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So you don't have any theory

Actually, muslims have the theory.
I'm not the one who's making claims. I'm rather someone who is responding to said claims. And my response is that there isn't enough, or any, evidence to warrant belief.

Among those claims will be mundane things like a story of a guy sitting in a cave. Eventhough you can't demonstrate it actually happened, it's not really a stretch to assume a guy sitting in a cave, so it's reasonable to do so for the sake of discussion. But you don't know if it actually occured.

Other claims will be extremely extra-ordinary. Those can not be just assumed while staying reasonable.

, but a maybe, based on a don't know

What's wrong with a maybe?

If you don't know, you don't know.

and don't care

Think about all the religious sects and their stories that you don't care about either.

I'm willing to have the discussion, but I don't "care", in the sense that it doesn't keep me awake at night.

yet care to make something out of nothing you have any clue of. Nice.

I don't really understand what you're saying here.

 

[firedragon]

Actually, muslims have the theory.
I'm not the one who's making claims. I'm rather someone who is responding to said claims. And my response is that there isn't enough, or any, evidence to warrant belief.

Among those claims will be mundane things like a story of a guy sitting in a cave. Eventhough you can't demonstrate it actually happened, it's not really a stretch to assume a guy sitting in a cave, so it's reasonable to do so for the sake of discussion. But you don't know if it actually occured.

Other claims will be extremely extra-ordinary. Those can not be just assumed while staying reasonable.



What's wrong with a maybe?

If you don't know, you don't know.



Think about all the religious sects and their stories that you don't care about either.

I'm willing to have the discussion, but I don't "care", in the sense that it doesn't keep me awake at night.



I don't really understand what you're saying here.

Right. So another persons claim, you don't if the claim is true or not, neither do you have any knowledge of what, how, or whatever about anything of the whole episode, never analyzed it or even tried to make some thought on it, and then based on a maybe or maybe not which also you have no clue of, you confirm you don't care, but you make theories about a man with nothing, then you claim you don't have any theory, all seem like there's an empty shell making noise.

Thanks for all the clarification. Great.