Which statements do you find "dubious"?
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Was Satan really an angel?
- Thread starter Francine
- Start date
With my bible in Hand going through the threads.
I would theorize the Jewish people probably have it right. Satan is an angel of God and angel of temptation. You must pass his temptations to be worthy of god.
If I include the new testament it is a little confusing but Satan actually is another face of God. Think of it this way Jesus the son of god dealing with his own conscience because of starvation and thirst. Revelations God in his other form passing judgement with his angels. After cleansing the world he will cleanse himself of the necessary judge.
I would theorize the Jewish people probably have it right. Satan is an angel of God and angel of temptation. You must pass his temptations to be worthy of god.
If I include the new testament it is a little confusing but Satan actually is another face of God. Think of it this way Jesus the son of god dealing with his own conscience because of starvation and thirst. Revelations God in his other form passing judgement with his angels. After cleansing the world he will cleanse himself of the necessary judge.
It's a little more complex. First off, may I note that HaSatan is not just an angel, but an archangel. His job is that important, at least for us humans. Many think that his mission is to tempt us to sin, but this is not so. His job is to make sure we have free will, by giving us freedom of choice. Remember Deuteronomy 30 commands us to choose between good and evil. To be able to choose, there must be choices. A person who is 'middle-path' that is to say a normal person with an equal inclination to do good or evil, HaSatan has very little to do as that person is balanced and can choose either. HaSatan is more active with a righteous person, as that type needs more temptations to be always in equalibrium and have free choice. This is what we see happen in Job. Actually, there is a lot going on in Job that most people don't know. Job, the man, is a contemporary of Jethro (Yitro) the father-in-law of Moses. Why G-d is doing this to him is complex, and I don't want to go into too much detail here, but during the lifetime of Moses here we see HaSatan in the Heavenly Court like all the other angels. So much for a 'rebellion'. I can't speak for all Messianic Jews, but I absolutely do not take the book of Revelation as anything but fantasy. The whole rebellion thing is bogus, a crossfertilization from other dominant religions in the region that influenced uneducated Jews of the time. Nowhere in the Torah is any such event recorded. Now, there are such things as demons (Quilopth), but they are NOT angels, fallen or otherwise, never have been.
But don't just take my word for this:
Orthodox Judaism: Purpose of HaSatan, true existence, hasatan
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Heneni
Miss Independent
Has it ever occured to you that satan did not accuse job while being in the third heaven before gods throne but rather that the lord came down to earth and found satan roaming around, asking him, where have you come from?
Same thing he asked to hagar:
7The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?"
And to satan he asked:
Job 1:6
6One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
The text does not say they presented themselves to the lord in heaven.
It was not unheard of that the lord came down from heaven upon this earth, as he did many times in the OT and also on this occasion:
Genesis 11;5
5But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
Heneni
Free4all
It's all about the blood
Yes, he was a Cherub. There was 5 cherubs around the throne of God, Lucifer was the Cherub that covered the throne. Now there are only 4.
starlite
Texasgirl
Yes...Ezekiel 28:13 describes how beautifully he was created. Verse 14 describes him as an anointed cherub. Verse 15 shows that unrighteousness came to be in him. And verse 16 states the he will be destroyed. 2 Corinthians 11 alerts us to the fact that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light (verse 14) For those who accept the book of Revelation....Revelation 12:9 states that it is Satan who is misleading the entire inhabited earth. Revelation 20 details that Satan will be bound for a 1,000 years, let loose for a little while and finally destroyed (verse 10) Also, 2 Corinthians 4:4 says he is the god of this system of things. He offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world...how could he if he didn't have control over them? So, in conclusion, Satan was created a beautiful angel who rebelled against God and wants to turn you and I against God too !
Free4all
It's all about the blood
Covered the throne of God - before he was thrown out.
starlite
Texasgirl
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif](cher´ub). An angelic creature of high rank having special duties, distinguished from the order of seraphs. The first of the 91 times they are mentioned in the Bible is at Genesis 3:24; after Gods driving Adam and Eve out of Eden, cherubs (Heb., [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]keru·vim´[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]) were posted at the E entrance with a flaming blade of a sword to guard the way to the tree of life. Whether more than two were stationed there is not disclosed. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ezekiel 28:14:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]God's Word Translation of the Bible says...I appointed an angel to guard you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Douay-Rheims Bible says...Thou a cherub stretched out, and protecting.....[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]***So, it is that the privilege of the cherub is to guard and protect as God's directs.[/FONT]
Free4all
It's all about the blood
No, silly --he's a satan of God and a satan of temptation. "Satan" means the opponent.
Nope, if you read the text it's quite clear. From your post:
That's not exactly correct. It's actually:
6. Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them.
7. The Lord said to the Adversary, "Where are you coming from?" And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it."
Rashi's commentary:
Now the day came about: That day which was Rosh Hashanah, (known as a day of sounding the shofar, and the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded the Adversary to bring the merit and the guilt of all creatures. This is the meaning of from going to and fro on the earth.) : and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord: to contend with Him, because the expression of standing refers only to judgment, as it is stated (Isa. 3:13): The Lord stands to plead. : and the Adversary, too, came among them: to accuse the people
If you don't have a correct translation, and the commentary, I guess not...
starlite
Texasgirl
Satan the Devil was permitted to continue in heaven for millenniums after the event in the Garden of Eden and on certain occasions (evidently for some specific reason) allowed to be present in an assembly of Gods sons. (Job 1:6, 7; 2:1) But it was only because of a moral issue needing settlement that Jehovah God tolerated Satans presence in the heavens. By permitting them to enter before him, Jehovah brought before all spirit creatures Satans challenge and the issues it raised. As evident from the book of Job, the Devil slandered God by implying that nobody loves and worships Him for what He is but that He bribes creatures to serve Him. Satan alleged that Job served God for selfish advantage, not out of love. So that this universally important issue might be settled, God permitted Satan to attempt to prove his claim. This allowed Satan to use his influence in trying to persuade other angelic sons to assert their independence, thereby putting them to a test as to their loyalty to God.
Many angels did become disloyal (Rev. 12:9) But all such unfaithful ones, though still having access to the heavens, lost their positions of trust and responsibility. They were put under restraint and deprived of additional divine enlightenment. This situation is spoken of figuratively at Jude 6: The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. Thus these unfaithful angels were expelled from Gods family of loyal spirit creatures. Neither they nor their ruler, Satan, continued residing with God in the manner that they had enjoyed as his obedient sons. Though having access to the heavenly realm, they were now outcasts. Then at a later time they were permanently expelled from heaven.
Heneni
Miss Independent
Umm.... I dont know who Rashi is. Should I care?
The text still does not say they presented themselves in heaven.
Heneni
Heneni
Miss Independent
Hello and welcome to the forum. I enjoy your posts so far.
Read the text again. The bible does not say that the devil was in heaven when he talked to god about Job.
The throne of gods judgement is on this earth. He judges the inhabitants of the earth, so his throne of judgement is here. The angels that come up for judgement have been placed on this earth.
The bible indicates that there will be a new heaven and a new earth. The earth is the only place where there is a judgment seat, because in heaven there is the throne of grace and mercy.
Therefore the bible says that the twelve disciples shall judge the tribes of israel, since israel, shall be on the new earth, and...the bible says that we shall judge angels. And there shall be angels on the new earth, because we shall be like angels, and we shall be on the new earth. But in heaven there is no judgement seat, there is only the throne of grace and mercy.
Jesus comes back to judge the world. He has to come back to do it here, because this is where the judgement seat is. He raises everybody up from the dead to execute judgement as well. The wicked and the righteous.
Heneni
logician
Well-Known Member
You base all this on a couple of rather obscure and obtuse scriptures?
starlite
Texasgirl
Thank you for the positive strokes.....
Jehovah, also Yehovah, is an English reading of יְהֹוָה, the most frequent form of the Tetragrammaton יהוה, the principal and personal name of God in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).
These Bibles listed below say that Satan entered in before Jehovah [God] (Job 1:6) which would mean in his heavenly abode ( Psalms 103:19, Matthew 23:22) Throne figuratively signifies a seat of ruling authority or the kingly authority and sovereignty itself. Jehovah, whom even the heaven of the heavens cannot contain, does not have to sit on a literal throne or chair. He does, however, picture his royal authority and sovereignty by the symbol of a throne.
American Standard Version
Young's Literal Translation
New World Translation
World English Bible
Darby Bible Translation
starlite
Texasgirl
Is this what you wanted to know?
And with three pairs of wingsthe number three being used in the Bible for emphasisthe cherubs can move with lightning swiftness to herald Jehovahs judgments and execute them. Revelation 4:8 And as for the four living creatures, each one of them respectively has six wings; round about and underneath they are full of eyes. The number of all these heavenly sons of God, the cherubs, the seraphs and the angels, runs into the millions. (Daniel 7:10)
linwood
Well-Known Member
Satan is a misinterpretation by Christian scholars of a hebrew concept.
The term "satan" means "adversary".
I don`t believe it is ever used in Hebrew scritpture to denote any one singe being.
In Numbers 22;22 the "adversary" standing in the path of Balam is "satan" yet he is there on a mission from God.
The term "satan" means "adversary".
I don`t believe it is ever used in Hebrew scritpture to denote any one singe being.
In Numbers 22;22 the "adversary" standing in the path of Balam is "satan" yet he is there on a mission from God.
starlite
Texasgirl
The rebellious angel used a serpent to speak to the first woman, Eve. Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden? the serpent asked Eve. When Eve cited Gods command and the penalty for disobeying it, the serpent declared: You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from [the tree that is in the middle of the garden] your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad. (Genesis 3:1-5) The assertion was that God had not told Adam and Eve the truth. By eating the fruit of that tree, Eve would supposedly become like God, having the authority to decide what was good and what was bad. That was the first lie ever spoken. Telling it made that angel a slanderer. He also became an opposer of God. The Bible thus identifies this enemy of God as the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan.Revelation 12:9.