Was St. Paul a liar and deceiver?

[Shermana]

Why would Jesus warn his own disciples that its better to cut your hand off than enter the fire with two hands if works were not involved?

I think it doesn't get any more clear than Matthew 25, and I NEVER hear the "Grace" crowd EVER mention Matthew 25. It basically flat out says that those who don't help the poor will be rejected from the Kingdom. How much more clear does it get?

 

[Rise]

This verse pretty much speaks for itself. Now, since we know that Paul taught faith alone, I'm not going to quote the verses in Ephesians and such, but discuss why Jesus taught salvation by faith and works, against Paul teaching faith alone, by just quoting Jesus, since there is no dispute about what Paul taught.

You've quoted something from Jesus, but you haven't quoted anything from Paul that supposedly contradicts what He said.
I could expound on what Jesus is teaching here, but to what end would that serve if you don't first provide a teaching from Paul that supposedly contradicts what Jesus is teaching here?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

You've quoted something from Jesus, but you haven't quoted anything from Paul that supposedly contradicts what He said.
I could expound on what Jesus is teaching here, but to what end would that serve if you don't first provide a teaching from Paul that supposedly contradicts what Jesus is teaching here?

That depends on what one thinks Jesus is actually teaching here. I believe he's teaching that faith alone is not enough for salvation, but one has to do the will of god, i.e, good deeds, but I've seen many Protestant apologists deny that this is what he's teaching in so many ways, that it makes my head spin. So how about this: what do you think Jesus is teaching here, and I'll give something where Paul contradicts him. But, if you agree with me that Jesus is teaching salvation by both faith and works here, I'll give you something from Paul that contradicts this:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Desert Snake]

That depends on what one thinks Jesus is actually teaching here. I believe he's teaching that faith alone is not enough for salvation, but one has to do the will of god, i.e, good deeds, but I've seen many Protestant apologists deny that this is what he's teaching in so many ways, that it makes my head spin. So how about this: what do you think Jesus is teaching here, and I'll give something where Paul contradicts him. But, if you agree with me that Jesus is teaching salvation by both faith and works here, I'll give you something from Paul that contradicts this:

I think your using confirmation bias to interpret these verses, as someone who has no church/denomination (no bias), I personally am not interpreting this scripture the same as you...just a thought

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I think your using confirmation bias to interpret these verses, as someone who has no church/denomination (no bias), I personally am not interpreting this scripture the same as you...just a thought

First, I'm not using confirmation bias to interpret them, I'm simply stating what's there. Second, I have no faith in them to be biased either way; I'm just looking at what's there objectively. The problem is when one has faith one way or the other, is when they tend to attempt, whatever way possible, to make them say what they want them to say.

Now, how would you interpret them?

 

[Desert Snake]

First, I'm not using confirmation bias to interpret them, I'm simply stating what's there. Second, I have no faith in them to be biased either way; I'm just looking at what's there objectively. The problem is when one has faith one way or the other, is when they tend to attempt, whatever way possible, to make them say what they want them to say.

Now, how would you interpret them?

Honestly, some can go either way, IMO, because we aren't entirely sure of what "works" means in the context...In James for instance, 'works' is exampled from helping the poor, which is definitely separate from say not shaving or eating crustaceans etc.
I'll present some verses straight for interpretation

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Honestly, some can go either way, IMO, because we aren't entirely sure of what "works" means in the context...In James for instance, 'works' is exampled from helping the poor, which is definitely separate from say not shaving or eating crustaceans etc.

I think you made a good point. Sometimes works doesn't always equal works of the law, but, in the context of faith alone or faith verses works and faith salvation, they're still important. Bringing up James, I think he teaches a faith and works salvation, although his idea of works was probably not works of the law, but more a general morality.

 

[Desert Snake]

I think you made a good point. Sometimes works doesn't always equal works of the law, but, in the context of faith alone or faith verses works and faith salvation, they're still important. Bringing up James, I think he teaches a faith and works salvation, although his idea of works was probably not works of the law, but more a general morality.

Agreed, I think much of the NT disagreement arises from that book (?) not sure but it is worth presenting verses from and really getting down to the meaning of 'works, 'faith' in that context

 

[Shermana]

I think you made a good point. Sometimes works doesn't always equal works of the law, but, in the context of faith alone or faith verses works and faith salvation, they're still important. Bringing up James, I think he teaches a faith and works salvation, although his idea of works was probably not works of the law, but more a general morality.

James mentions the Law in the sense of striving to obey it.

11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sisterd]" class="footnote">[d] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

What's telling is that most who reference the following passage seem to believe James is advocating that you don't have to follow it at all.

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”a]" class="footnote">[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”b]" class="footnote">[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”c]" class="footnote">[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

Considering the context, especially from what it says in Acts 21, it's quite clear that James is indeed advocating obedience to Mosaic Law, even if not explicitly. What else would the context be?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

James mentions the Law in the sense of striving to obey it.



What's telling is that most who reference the following passage seem to believe James is advocating that you don't have to follow it at all.




Considering the context, especially from what it says in Acts 21, it's quite clear that James is indeed advocating obedience to Mosaic Law, even if not explicitly. What else would the context be?

That's a good point, and something I had forgotten. I had forgot that James does mention the law, and it's keeping.

 

[Desert Snake]

Anyways, it's an interesting topic. however I think i'll let people who have more of an opinion and scriptural knowledge argue these points

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I've just thought of this. It seems to me that Jesus, and James, were intent on helping people follow the law spiritually, internalizing it, in order for the inner to keep with the outer. I think they focused on the inner, because it's the inner that shows the change to keep in step with the divine, without necessarily denying the importance of the outer. The law, then, is not a means to righteousness, but an external manifestation of one's internal righteousness.

 

[Pegg]

This verse pretty much speaks for itself. Now, since we know that Paul taught faith alone, I'm not going to quote the verses in Ephesians and such, but discuss why Jesus taught salvation by faith and works, against Paul teaching faith alone, by just quoting Jesus, since there is no dispute about what Paul taught.

there are many of Pauls writings which do highlight the need for faith & works. Paul actually does us a huge favor in that he teaches us that faith is something that comes from the 'heart'....so the works of faith would be the sorts of works motivated by 'love'

Rom. 10:10: “With the heart one exercises faith.”

Galatians 5:22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law....25 If we are living by spirit, let us go on walking orderly also by spirit

The works that Paul is highlighting above are works of the spirit...or 'fruitage'
they are acts of kindness, goodness, peace ect.... these are works of the heart which are far more important to God, then things such as whether or not we ate shellfish or pork, or whether we refrained from working on a sabbath.

 

[Pegg]

But, if you agree with me that Jesus is teaching salvation by both faith and works here, I'll give you something from Paul that contradicts this
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.:

this doesnt really contradict Jesus for the reason that Paul is telling the new christians that God has been gracious and merciful toward them BECAUSE they showed faith in Christ. These Ephesians were gentile believers....not jews who practiced mosiac law. So Paul is reminding them that they have no reason to boast in themselves or think that God saved them because they were righteous people. Paul says plainly that before they put faith in Christ, they were dead in Gods eyes. But God saved them because 1. he himself is gracious and merciful and 2. because they put faith in Jesus.

This is in complete harmony with Jesus words found at
John 6:35 Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. ....40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.”

Jesus doesnt mention that the person must practice mosaic law...he only says that whoever beholds him and 'exercises faith'in him will have everlasting life.
You dont need 'faith' to follow a set of rules...you can easily live without faith and live by law...people do it every day. But the sort of faith that Jesus speaks of is something that comes from the heart. Look at his words to his disciples about the religious leaders of his day who were living by mosaic law:

Matt 15:12 Then the disciples came up and said to him: “Do you know that the Pharisees stumbled at hearing what you said?” 13 In reply he said: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 LET them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” 15 By way of response Peter said to him: “Make the illustration plain to us.” 16 At this he said: “Are YOU also yet without understanding? 17 Are YOU not aware that everything entering into the mouth passes along into the intestines and is discharged into the sewer? 18 However, the things proceeding out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those things defile a man. 19 For example, out of the heart come wicked reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thieveries, false testimonies, blasphemies. 20 These are the things defiling a man; but to take a meal with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

Jesus was not so much concerned about how well a person practiced a certain law...he was more concerned about what they were thinking in their hearts. Those religious leaders were practicing mosaic law...yet Jesus wasnt impressed with them.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

there are many of Pauls writings which do highlight the need for faith & works. Paul actually does us a huge favor in that he teaches us that faith is something that comes from the 'heart'....so the works of faith would be the sorts of works motivated by 'love'

Rom. 10:10: “With the heart one exercises faith.”

Galatians 5:22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law....25 If we are living by spirit, let us go on walking orderly also by spirit

The works that Paul is highlighting above are works of the spirit...or 'fruitage'
they are acts of kindness, goodness, peace ect.... these are works of the heart which are far more important to God, then things such as whether or not we ate shellfish or pork, or whether we refrained from working on a sabbath.

Most Protestant scholars say Paul, as well as Jesus, taught faith alone. Most Catholic and Orthodox scholars say they both taught faith and works. I don't see anything in the teachings of Jesus to suggest faith alone, and I don't see anything in Paul that says faith and works. Those verses you quoted, while beautiful, don't say anything about salvation. They're simply suggesting Christian character and morality.

this doesnt really contradict Jesus for the reason that Paul is telling the new christians that God has been gracious and merciful toward them BECAUSE they showed faith in Christ. These Ephesians were gentile believers....not jews who practiced mosiac law. So Paul is reminding them that they have no reason to boast in themselves or think that God saved them because they were righteous people. Paul says plainly that before they put faith in Christ, they were dead in Gods eyes. But God saved them because 1. he himself is gracious and merciful and 2. because they put faith in Jesus.

This is in complete harmony with Jesus words found at
John 6:35 Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. ....40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.”

Jesus doesnt mention that the person must practice mosaic law...he only says that whoever beholds him and 'exercises faith' in him will have everlasting life.

You dont need 'faith' to follow a set of rule...you can easily live without faith and live by law...people do it every day. But the sort of faith that Jesus speaks of is something that comes from the heart. Look at his words to his disciples about the religious leaders of his day who were living by mosaic law:

While it can be debated whether or not the Mosaic law was what Jesus had in mind when he taught salvation by faith and works, that is not the way this thread has gone. The topic at hand now is whether or not Paul and Jesus were in agreement that faith and works were required for salvation, or just faith; noting that "works" may not necessarily connote obedience to the Mosaic law.

 

[Pegg]

Most Protestant scholars say Paul, as well as Jesus, taught faith alone. Most Catholic and Orthodox scholars say they both taught faith and works. I don't see anything in the teachings of Jesus to suggest faith alone, and I don't see anything in Paul that says faith and works. Those verses you quoted, while beautiful, don't say anything about salvation. They're simply suggesting Christian character and morality.

there has to be a balance between the two. Faith is important and so is works. But what is not important is the ritual observances because those things do not come from the heart.

Paul relates many fine examples of faith in people such as Noah, Abraham, Abel, Sarah etc and he points out that their faith was proved by their works.
Its Hebrews chapter 11. He mentions the works they did....Noah built an ark to save his family, Abraham traveled to a distant land to dwell in tents, Abel offered a sacrifice worth more then Cain....these were all 'works of faith'....these people proved they have faith in God by living in harmony with their faith in him.

for example, if Noah didnt really believe a flood was coming, would he have spent 40year building an ark? probably not. If Abraham didnt believe in the promise to make him a nation and give his descendents the land, would he have left his comfortable lifestyle in Ur to live in tents in the promised land? Not likely.

so you see, 'works of faith' are about how far a person is willing to go in their belief in Gods promises.
The early christians put faith in Christ and were willing to die for that faith.

While it can be debated whether or not the Mosaic law was what Jesus had in mind when he taught salvation by faith and works, that is not the way this thread has gone. The topic at hand now is whether or not Paul and Jesus were in agreement that faith and works were required for salvation, or just faith; noting that "works" may not necessarily connote obedience to the Mosaic law.

the problem is that Paul is speaking to Jews who believed they should continue to follow the mosaic law. When he said that it is not by works, he was talking about the works of the mosaic law....evidence for this is that he spoke about the 'festivals, observances and foods'

and as Jesus said "not not enters into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of his mouth"

so one thing we know for sure is that Jesus didnt believe that eating shellfish or pork could make a person unrighteous...if thats the case, then Paul is telling jews that there is no reason to continue to follow a law which forbids such foods.

 

[Shermana]

the problem is that Paul is speaking to Jews who believed they should continue to follow the mosaic law. When he said that it is not by works, he was talking about the works of the mosaic law....evidence for this is that he spoke about the 'festivals, observances and foods'

1. How do you know Paul was speaking to Jews and not gentiles in the letter to the Colossians?

2. All he says is to not let anyone judge you.

and as Jesus said "not not enters into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of his mouth"

so one thing we know for sure is that Jesus didnt believe that eating shellfish or pork could make a person unrighteous...if thats the case, then Paul is telling jews that there is no reason to continue to follow a law which forbids such foods.

Considering that this phrase was called a "Parable" and Jesus specifically, explicitly mentions that it's referring to handwashing, we can't really "know for sure" that this is the case. That little pesky word "parable" kinda can mean "not everything he said was true but there's a point in what he's saying". Besides, this story is almost always taken out of context as to what the actual meaning was, which was showing the error of the Pharisee manmade rules like ritual handwashing while neglecting the poor and refusing them to help their parents with things they redeemed for temple service. What we DO know for sure however is that the main focal point of the story was not about dietary Laws whatsoever, but on Rabbinical customs that deviated from the Law itself.

Hence, why it was a "parable".

 

[Ken Brown]

That depends on what one thinks Jesus is actually teaching here. I believe he's teaching that faith alone is not enough for salvation, but one has to do the will of god, i.e, good deeds, but I've seen many Protestant apologists deny that this is what he's teaching in so many ways, that it makes my head spin. So how about this: what do you think Jesus is teaching here, and I'll give something where Paul contradicts him. But, if you agree with me that Jesus is teaching salvation by both faith and works here, I'll give you something from Paul that contradicts this:

Originally Posted by dyanaprajna2011
But, if you agree with me that Jesus is teaching salvation by both faith and works here, I'll give you something from Paul that contradicts this
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.:

Hi dyanaprajna2011, why did you stop with verse 9? Here is verse 10:

Eph 2:10
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which G-d hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So it appears there is no contradiction. KB

 

[Shermana]

If anything, most of the grace crowd stops at 8.

So what exactly does "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" mean? What kind of good works specifically pertain to such Christians alone?

Why would James even say that it's a sin to know the right thing but not do it? Does this mean a true Christian will ALWAYS do the right thing? After all, supposedly true Christians can no longer sin, no? Or if they can sin, what does that entail? How is it a sin to not do the right thing and what is the right thing that James has in mind?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

there has to be a balance between the two. Faith is important and so is works.

I think this is why some Protestant scholars and preacher say that faith is shown by works, but is not necessary to salvation, but only those who are saved show their faith by their works.

But what is not important is the ritual observances because those things do not come from the heart.

This is simply something that comes from Protestant theology. The fact is, ceremony has an important place in religious psychology. The idea that ceremony and ritual is not important is just a way for Protestants to deny the importance of the law of Moses. But, if you'll notice, even those same Protestants have their own rituals and observances.

Paul relates many fine examples of faith in people such as Noah, Abraham, Abel, Sarah etc and he points out that their faith was proved by their works.

If I remember correctly, it wasn't Paul, but James and the author of Hebrews who does such. I know some people think that Paul wrote Hebrews, but that's up for debate.

the problem is that Paul is speaking to Jews who believed they should continue to follow the mosaic law.

Ultimately, we don't know who Paul's audience was. But the most part of his letters were written to gentile believers, as is evidenced by where the letters were written to and the subject matter of the letters themselves. In Acts, it was decided that Paul would go to the gentiles, while Peter would go to the Jews.

When he said that it is not by works, he was talking about the works of the mosaic law....evidence for this is that he spoke about the 'festivals, observances and foods'

Or, here's another scenario. Paul wrote these things to gentile believers who were hearing that Peter was teaching the Jewish believers that they were still required to follow the Mosaic law. The gentile believers would have been confused as to whether or not that requirement was laid on them also, hence, the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.