Was the Manson family a cult?

[Riders]

There was a different documentary about Charles Manson murders done by his family that had information that some of the original information was wrong including that it was a cult.

My opinion is this. some original members is they weren't calling themselves a family because they were in a cult. They called themselves a family and brothers and sisters because that's what all young people did i the 1960. But that doesn't work for me because cults, just like my old church where everyone was my family, cults also use the family term.

They also claim the belief in the race war story, he preached to them ,was a story made up a different group and Charley wasn't preaching that.

That maybe true but it still doesn't prove it was not a cult. The other thing, does not disprove it a cult but I agree with this idea. They said the belief in that cult and it's teachings is not why Charlie sent his followers and told them to kill all those people. One reason was that Bobby Beausolei killed a drug dealer for Charlie because he didn't give them a bunch of drug money he thought he owed them, they caught Bobby for murder and sent him to prison. He wanted revenge for that.

The other reason is The Beach Boys. They put one of his songs on the b side of one of their singles, and it didn't sell. He wanted to be a big star, Dennis Wilson of The Beach Boys had gotten involved with him I am sure he didn't know they were killers, Charley manipulated him with women and drugs. But he tried to set him up with record producer, Terry Melcher but Charley wasn't good enough and got rejected. Terry lived in the house that Sharon Tate and her family and friends lived in before her so Charley found out he moved out and went and got revenge on Melcher and The Beach Boys.

Poor Dennis blamed himself and killed himself .TOBECONTINUED

 

[Riders]

So I agree with that that Manson wanted revenge for those things but it was still a cult. The reason why they killed for him their master. They crawled their way into the court room to prove to Charlie their loyalty ,the ridiculous child songs they sang, they shaved their heads and war and x on their forheads, the same one he wore.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Compare the Manson family to the BITE model and see if it matches the prerequisites

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There was a different documentary about Charles Manson murders done by his family that had information that some of the original information was wrong including that it was a cult.

What is the documentary called?

 

[Riders]

Compare the Manson family to the BITE model and see if it matches the prerequisites

whats the bite model?

 

[Samael_Khan]

whats the bite model?

It was a categorisation by cult expert Steve Hassan. This model and his book helped me to deal with the mental and emotional fallout when I left Jehovah's Witnesses by helping me put into words what I felt was wrong when in the group.

 

[Riders]

It was a categorisation by cult expert Steve Hassan. This model and his book helped me to deal with the mental and emotional fallout when I left Jehovah's Witnesses by helping me put into words what I felt was wrong when in the group.

Thankyou

 

[PureX]

Not so much a "cult" as a hardened criminal that had been to prison playing prison-type mind games with a bunch of very naive, stupidly idealistic, and easily misled teens. They were ripe for being used and controlled and Manson had just the kind of mind and personality to want to do that to them.

It was a "cult-like" situation, for sure. But not really a cult. Nor a 'family'. Just a charismatic, clever, and amoral criminal abuser who found and gathered together a small group of lost, foolish, young people that he could control. And his own stupid ego then drove him to see how far he could push that control.

 

[Riders]

Well I think the Manson family falls into all of that. Drugs controlled thoughts and emotions. He controled their sex partners, when they had oregies Manson put people together to have sex. He also made them have sex with people who gave them money like Dennis Wilson. He kept them from outside influences when they moved to the desert.He had them go dumpster diving to find food to eat.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Not so much a "cult" as a hardened criminal that had been to prison playing prison-type mind games with a bunch of very naive, stupidly idealistic, and easily misled teens. They were ripe for being used and controlled and Manson had just the kind of mind and personality to want to do that to them.

It was a "cult-like" situation, for sure. But not really a cult. Nor a 'family'. Just a charismatic, clever, and amoral criminal abuser who found and gathered together a small group of lost, foolish, young people that he could control. And his own stupid ego then drove him to see how far he could push that control.

He would fall under "cult of personality" much like Hitler, Mussolini and.... ahem.... another popular politician of today who has a movement that rhymes with "mama". These types of people are the backbones of cults.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Well I think the Manson family falls into all of that. Drugs controlled thoughts and emotions. He controled their sex partners, when they had oregies Manson put people together to have sex. He also made them have sex with people who gave them money like Dennis Wilson. He kept them from outside influences when they moved to the desert.He had them go dumpster diving to find food to eat.

Also, don't forget his idea of Helter Skelter, which was his version of the apocalypse inspired by the book of Revelation. End times scenarios are what cults use to stress urgency on their followers to make the fear. It is the first aspect of FOG, which means Fear, Obligation and Guilt. Cult leaders will keep you emotionally in line by making you fear that you wont survive the end times which is around the corner, that you have have an obligation to God to do certain things (why the mansons armed themselves and killed people) and that you are betraying god by not following through with your obligation.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'd still like to know the name of the documentary. You know, so I can watch it.

 

[Riders]

ill try to find it tomorrow

 

[stvdv]

There was a different documentary about Charles Manson murders done by his family that had information that some of the original information was wrong including that it was a cult.

Charles Manson was a murderer with
Narcissistic, psychopatic, superiority feeling

Narcissist loves it to be in the spotlights
When the world evolves around him
Cult stamp: him being their God
He must have loved this

Reality: He was just a murderer
Furthest away from Spirituality

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

ill try to find it tomorrow

Thanks.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think they were a cult but there's very weird things going on with Manson and his followers on a deeper and spookier level. Manson was probably an intelligence asset and apparently was involved in MKULTRA. There's also rumors he was producing snuff films and so on. He had ties to Scientology and also the Process Church, a very interesting and bizarre '60s occult...cult. Susan Adkins was involved in the early Church of Satan, as well.

The Manson Murders May Have Something to Do With CIA Mind-Control Experiments

Journalist Tom O’Neill’s book CHAOS uncovered undeniably bizarre facts— and high-profile lies — about the 1969 murders that we still can’t stop thinking about.

jacobin.com

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Not so much a "cult" as a hardened criminal that had been to prison playing prison-type mind games with a bunch of very naive, stupidly idealistic, and easily misled teens. They were ripe for being used and controlled and Manson had just the kind of mind and personality to want to do that to them. It was a "cult-like" situation, for sure. But not really a cult. Nor a 'family'. Just a charismatic, clever, and amoral criminal abuser who found and gathered together a small group of lost, foolish, young people that he could control. And his own stupid ego then drove him to see how far he could push that control.

You seem to make a distinction between cult and cult-like, but don't explain what that is or just how in your opinion the Manson gang falls short of a cult.

You also seem to be conflating Manson with the cult he created.

I queried AI: "Were the Manson gang a cult?" Here is part of the response:

"Manson attracted followers who were disillusioned with conventional society. He presented himself as a prophet and manipulated his followers through a blend of psychological control and apocalyptic rhetoric ... In conclusion, based on the characteristics outlined above—charismatic leadership, a shared belief system that promotes extreme actions, isolation from society, and coercive control—the Manson gang can indeed be classified as a cult."

You described a lost, foolish, easily misled people under the sway of a controller. Add to that he controlled their thoughts and behaviors using words, sex and drugs to consolidate his coercive control over them in ways that served him and harmed them, that they were physically and socially isolated, that Manson demanded loyalty and unquestioning obedience, and that Manson presented himself as some kind of prophet or visionary with an ominous worldview, and you have a cult.

Manson, Jones, Moon, Koresh, Applewhite - all variations on a common theme, all leading to harm to cult members and in some cases, others.

How about the Scientologists, Witnesses, and Mormons? Do they rise to cultic status? They're not as violent, and the harm the do their members is generally less extreme.

How about the Amish or orthodox Jews? Very clannish and isolated and very much under the thumb of their elders and an ideology, but probably not cults. THIS may be where the word cult-like plays a role.

 

[PureX]

You seem to make a distinction between cult and cult-like, but don't explain what that is or just how in your opinion the Manson gang falls short of a cult.

I think the main distinction is in the desire, or the lack of a desire to 'expand'. Or to spread. Manson was just a criminally sociopathic manipulator. He was not trying to create a 'cult', he was just collecting weak-minded people to control and manipulate. He didn't actively seek them out, he just saw them for what they were when he encountered them and began to manipulate and control them. They could stay or leave. But if they stayed they had to be willing to submit to his mind-games.

Manson tried to play up the whole "I'm a scary cult leader" shtick in the courtroom because he was basically a narcissistic sociopath. And that was his way of trying to take control of the event of his own trial. But in the end all he ever was, was a narcissistic sociopath. There was no 'cult', per se. Just a few lost and very easily manipulated youngsters that fell under his influence.

Since then there have been many similar instances of children and young adults falling under the manipulative spell of some sociopath among them and being willing to commit murder as a result.

 

[Riders]

I read somewhere that in the court room Charlie met the prosecuting attorney and his watch died quit working right after he met Charlie. Charlie gave him a creepy smile, he thought he had caused it. They have no perseption of time in his group.

 

[Riders]

Ok I searched for this all day .It offers up explanations to why Manson killed outside his beliefs about the race war.
While Bugliosi’s focus on the Helter Skelter theory helped convict Manson and his followers who were involved in the brutal slayings, Day, who talked with Manson for hours while he was behind bars before his death, contends the impetus for the murders was really an attempt to cover up the group’s earlier crimes.
The violence in the cult actually began earlier that summer after Watson stole money from a drug dealer named Bernard Crowe, according to Day’s book. Crowe was furious and called the Spahn Ranch looking for Watson. He got Manson on the phone instead, and during the call, Crowe allegedly threatened to come and kill everyone on the ranch unless his money was returned. Manson went to see Crowe, who he believed was a member of the Black Panthers, in his apartment and shot him in the stomach after a fight broke out. Believing he had killed Crowe, Manson was afraid the Black Panthers would retaliate.
In reality, Crowe survived and would later testify against him in court during the Tate and LaBianca murder trial.
“Manson said, ‘Now we gotta fend for ourselves because the Black Panthers are going to kill us,'” Day said, according to Time. “At that point, Manson has two problems: First, he’s worried that Black Panthers will take revenge for the drug dealer he believes he’s murdered, and second is that anyone in the group can rat him out. So he comes up with a strategy of saying, if everyone’s willing to commit these violent acts, it will bond us together, and no one can tell on anyone.”
To offer himself greater protection, Manson began to hang out with the biker gang known as the Straight Satans, letting them stay at the ranch in exchange for their protection.
The second incident came a few weeks later when follower Bobby Beausoliel allegedly purchased some mescaline from his friend Gary Hinman and sold it to the biker gang. When they complained about the quality and demanded their money back, Beausoliel went to Hinman to get a refund.

Hinman said he didn’t have any money. Unsure what to do next, Beausoliel called Manson, who came to the property and slashed Hinman badly in the face with a samurai sword. When Beausoliel asked Manson why he’d attacked Hinman he left him with some chilling words.
"He said, 'To show you how to be a man.' His exact words," Beausoleil said, according to the TV special Inside the Manson Cult: The

Why did the Manson Family kill? The retaliation against a music producer theory, explained​

Before Sharon Tate and husband Roman Polanski moved into the now-infamous home along Cielo Drive, music producer Terry Melcher and his then-girlfriend, Candace Bergen, lived at the address.
In his quest to earn fame and fortune as a musician, Manson crossed paths with Melcher after the two were introduced by the Beach Boys’ Dennis Wilson, according to Fox TV. Melcher, then a producer at Columbia Records, refused to offer Manson a recording contract, enraging the cult leader.
Although it’s believed Manson knew Melcher was no longer living at the home at the time of the murders, it’s theorized he may have directed his followers to strike that particular house to send a message to Melcher.
"Manson didn’t send his murderous family for Melcher and Bergen – he knew they had moved. Instead, he wanted to frighten Melcher and other members of the rock ’n’ roll elite," author William McKeen wrote in 2017’s The Conversation.

Why did the Manson Family kill? Botched drug deal theory, explained​

Five decades after the murders, the business partner of Manson victim Jay Sebring came out with another shocking theory about what could have prompted the crimes.
Jim Markham told The Hollywood Reporter in 2019 that Sebring, a celebrity hairstylist, also used to sell drugs to the stars, earning himself the nickname “The Candyman” in Hollywood. He believes that Manson had gone to the Tate home shortly before the murder hoping to sell Sebring cocaine and marijuana.
“He showed Jay and Wojciech the product. They were going to buy some of it, but the two of them beat him up at the gate. The next night, Manson sent the Family up [to kill them].” Markham told the outlet.
Markham declined to provide any further details about why he believes that may have occurred, but said he’s been haunted by it for years.
“I’ve lived with that for 50 years. I still believe that,” he said.
Decades after the murders sent shockwaves through the country, those left behind are left to still wonder which motive, or combination of factors, led to one of the most brutal killing sprees in history.
To learn more about the Manson Family, watch the new Peacock three-part docuseries Making Manson, premiering on November 19.
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• Making Manson
• Cults
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