Was the Qur'an created or is it uncreated? - Muslims only

[The_Fisher_King]

That's alright if you have no firm beliefs of your own.

So you're saying that having firm beliefs of your own means you shouldn't take what others have to say seriously? I disagree. If we respect others, we should I believe take what others have to say seriously. Having firm beliefs and taking what others have to say seriously are not mutually exclusive.

I didn't say anything about questioning, though, again, if you want to actually learn, you'd be better off listening and reading and talking little. It isn't wise to make all your questions publicly known.

I believe we can learn from many different sources. And I don't see any problem with making one's questions publicly known.

Whatever you learned you would probably have learned from here
The Qur’an is the word of Allah, may He be exalted, and is not created - Islam Question & Answer
Explained much better and you wouldn't have had to show others your doubts.

I think you did a perfectly fine job of explaining your position.

But Islam is not something that changes according to each person's opinion.

I believe there isn't just one 'Islam' - there are many different interpretations and experiences of Islam.

The people on this forum are extremely ignorant about Islam.

There is much ignorance about Islam on here, it is true.

There is no logical reason at all to expect them to teach you about it.

In the process of questioning things and arguing for particular positions one can strengthen those positions or alternatively rethink one's stance on particular issues. That is all good.

Why not read a book on the topic, listen to a lecture on the topic or go through the articles on the topic?

One can do all those things and also explore things on forums.

 

[Shakeel]

So you're saying that having firm beliefs of your own means you shouldn't take what others have to say seriously?

Having firm and correct beliefs about Islam prevents one from accepting many ridiculous arguments. It saves you the trouble of considering them and making yourself look ignorant on the topic.

If you give any consideration to the absurd arguments of the shias, they will know immediately that you don't know your religion or their religion which makes you an easy victim.

If we respect others, we should I believe take what others have to say seriously

This is about shi'ism and islam. Don't make it general. Respecting a person and respecting lies, the inventing of them and the spreading of them are different things.

Having firm beliefs and taking what others have to say seriously are not mutually exclusive.

You're making it general again. If you're a scholar about to debate a Shia to prove them wrong in order to show people the right way, you can have firm beliefs. But if you just run around seeing if what they say is true or not, this means you lack knowledge.

And I don't see any problem with making one's questions publicly known.

If you learn, you might have a problem with it in the future. You should ask questions from the learned people, not random people.

I think you did a perfectly fine job of explaining your position.

It isn't my position. I don't make up my own opinions about Islamic matters.

I believe there isn't just one 'Islam' - there are many different interpretations and experiences of Islam.

There are the wrong ones and the right one.

One can do all those things and also explore things on forums.

one is advised to do the better one first and the likeliness you will have any questions left for the ignorant folk after that is small.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Having firm and correct beliefs about Islam prevents one from accepting many ridiculous arguments.

Who decides what are the 'correct beliefs about Islam' and whether an argument is 'ridiculous' or not? The scholars? Sure, we should take informed decisions, but given that there isn't only one 'Islam', I believe it is ultimately for us to decide what is 'correct' or right for us.

It saves you the trouble of considering them and making yourself look ignorant on the topic.

I'm not bothered about whether people think I look ignorant on a topic. I'm more interested in fully exploring a topic.

If you give any consideration to the absurd arguments of the shias, they will know immediately that you don't know your religion or their religion which makes you an easy victim.

An easy victim for what?

Respecting a person and respecting lies, the inventing of them and the spreading of them are different things.

You seem to think that Shi'a are deliberately inventing and spreading lies, which in turn implies that they are not sincere in their beliefs. Accusing someone of deliberately inventing and spreading lies when they might well be sincere in their beliefs shows a lack of respect for a person, to my mind.

You're making it general again. If you're a scholar about to debate a Shia to prove them wrong in order to show people the right way, you can have firm beliefs. But if you just run around seeing if what they say is true or not, this means you lack knowledge.

I disagree. The Shi'a may be correct in their beliefs. We should investigate all things if we are genuinely committed to gaining knowledge.

If you learn, you might have a problem with it in the future.

How so?

You should ask questions from the learned people, not random people.

I believe that one can learn from all people.

There are the wrong ones and the right one.

If there is only one right one, objectively, for all people, then it is for Allah to decide between us what is that right one.

 

[Link]

Salam

The verse quoted and translated as "commandment" is better translated as "to God belongs the creation and the authority....". Authority is an abstract concept in minds of people. Some people think Trump has authority for example, it's in their minds. Really Quran is saying to God belongs the Authority. Authority is an abstract concept and relationship between those who authority is upon and who has authority. This is saying creation belongs to him and the authority, and as the preceding words show, God established himself on the throne and so this means proving himself to creation and souls, he establishes his authority. And before physical universe, God's throne was on the water, and so this some metaphysical description going on about reality.

When it says to him belongs authority, it means you should give power and authority to God because he has that right. Of course, the authority will be really in display on the day of judgment fully, and until then, it somewhat veiled his authority.

When God establishes his authority through miracles of Messengers, then his authority has come out more to the open but still not as clear as the day of judgment when truly the authority belongs to him that day.

The Quran talks about Pharaoh Chiefs and his people have authority outwardly/apparently in the earth but also how in reality, they had none, and God destroyed them when they rebelled and disobeyed his Messenger.

I suggest sticking to what is clear in Quran and not making up stupid beliefs out of it with ambiguities. This is an example.

Authority of God is discussed through out Quran. Quran is authority from God, but so are Prophets. Neither of them existed eternally.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I suggest sticking to what is clear in Quran and not making up stupid beliefs out of it with ambiguities.

So is this an example of something which is clear in the Qur'an?

 

[Link]

So is this an example of something which is clear in the Qur'an?

Quran and reason is clear, God eternally existed and that's it, he is one undivided essence, his attributes unify in him (that all one essence). Nothing else existed with God, no book existed with him.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Quran and reason is clear, God eternally existed and that's it, he is one undivided essence, his attributes unify in him (that all one essence). Nothing else existed with God, no book existed with him.

So if it was clear, there would be no dispute about it, and yet there is clearly dispute...

 

[Link]

So if it was clear, there would be no dispute about it, and yet there is clearly dispute...

Most things there are disputes about Quran is actually very clear in regards too. Disagreement is because people have heart problems.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Most things there are disputes about Quran is actually very clear in regards too. Disagreement is because people have heart problems.

One interpretation may be clear to you, another interpretation may be clear to another, and so we have disagreement and disputes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am not here to debate or discuss the topic in the OP at all. I am merely pointing out that if you want Muslims only to post here you could have posted in the Muslim DIR:

Islam DIR

You could ask a moderator to move the thread for you. And speaking of that if a moderator would be so kind as to delete this post from the thread I would appreciate that as well.

 

[Link]

One interpretation may be clear to you, another interpretation may be clear to another, and so we have disagreement and disputes.

You are right about that, but again following unclear is a heart problem according to the Quran. If it's all clear insights, why people following unclear of it?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

You are right about that, but again following unclear is a heart problem according to the Quran. If it's all clear insights, why people following unclear of it?

Which brings us back to whether you feel this is an example of one of the unclear things in the Qur'an - if you feel this is a clear thing in the Qur'an, with your interpretation/understanding, and another feels this is also a clear thing in the Qur'an, but with a different interpretation/understanding, we have a disagreement and the grounds for a dispute or debate.

 

[Link]

Which brings us back to whether you feel this is an example of one of the unclear things in the Qur'an - if you feel this is a clear thing in the Qur'an, with your interpretation/understanding, and another feels this is also a clear thing in the Qur'an, but with a different interpretation/understanding, we have a disagreement and the grounds for a dispute or debate.

The Quran is meant to solve disputes, it can't, because people prefer their desires over what it says.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

The Quran is meant to solve disputes, it can't, because people prefer their desires over what it says.

Ah, but which are the ones who are following their desires and which are the ones following the correct interpretation? That is ultimately for Allah to decide.

 

[Link]

Ah, but which are the ones who are following their desires and which are the ones following the correct interpretation? That is ultimately for Allah to decide.

It's for us to find the truth by becoming sincere to the Quran then the people of truth can be recognized. Unity of humanity on truth is still possible. Highly improbably at this point, but still possible but at least we should find truth as much as possible.

The Quran is a clear guidance if we have fear of God when reciting it, without fear, the sorcery of Iblis takes over and deceptions take place within it.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

It's for us to find the truth by becoming sincere to the Quran then the people of truth can be recognized. Unity of humanity on truth is still possible. Highly improbably at this point, but still possible but at least we should find truth as much as possible.

The Quran is a clear guidance if we have fear of God when reciting it, without fear, the sorcery of Iblis takes over and deceptions take place within it.

I honestly believe that there can be two (or more) Muslims who approach the Qur'an in all sincerity, with the fear (and love) of Allah in their hearts, and yet come away with differing interpretations even in the things which they feel are clear and easy to understand (and therefore find it difficult to see how others can see things differently).