Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
Read more at Dad's Being Crushed By A Car. Then His 8-Year-Old Son Says 'Angels' Gave Him Strength
What do you think? Was it a miracle?
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Was this a Miracle?
- Thread starter Jeremiahcp
- Start date
Read more at Dad's Being Crushed By A Car. Then His 8-Year-Old Son Says 'Angels' Gave Him Strength
What do you think? Was it a miracle?
JustWondering
Jerk
I think it was adrenaline.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
Would that make it less of a miracle?
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
Define miracle?
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
Feel free to interpret miracle in your own context.
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
Then no, this was not a miracle. A miracle is something that can not be explained, even potentially explained, by reference to natural causes. There is no such thing as a miracle!
A miracle must invoke a supernatural cause, i.e. there must be some super nature at work. As there are no senses for any non-physical, non-natural stimuli, then even if there were miracles they would be utterly undetectable to the human consciousness.
I witnessed a young girl struck by lightning. She died 3 times. I was hosting a kid fish event and there were 100s of people there including an EMS team that did an excellent job. I gave her initial CPR but she died on the ground, was resuscitated by the EMT, died again in the ambulance for more than 3 minutes, was resuscitated, and died again in the life flight helicopter ride to Herman in Houston. This was in 1999. I attended her doctoral graduation a few years back...
No miracle! Dedicated, educated, caring PEOPLE!!!
Only sad thing is her paster told her mom it was her fault and god struck down her daughter because she didn't attend church regularly! If there's a miracle, it's that I didn't bash the pastor's skull in!
Cobol
Code Jockey
I agree, definitely adrenaline.
Miracles don't exist, just like the supernatural doesn't exist.
The typical explanation centers on adrenalin. Adrenalin, also called epinephrine, figures prominently in what's popularly called the "fight or flight" response.
The adrenal gland releases adrenalin into your bloodstream, and as it spreads throughout your body, Your muscles go into glycolysis, which produces energy-rich molecules fueling them for extraordinary action.
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The problem with declaring anything a "miracle" these days is that it makes God appear to be very arbitrary, like he is sitting up in heaven pointing his finger at one person to live as if by a miracle, and another to die without one. If both are people of faith, then what is God up to? Smells fishy to me.
Miracles were to cease after the death of the apostles. They were the only ones who could pass the gifts onto others and once the Christian Congregation was established, there was no need for miracles to impress unbelievers. Paul called that "the traits of a child". If you need miracles in order to believe these days, then faith is redundant. Mature Christians do not need to "walk by sight".....true faith gives them a different vision.
Miracles were to cease after the death of the apostles. They were the only ones who could pass the gifts onto others and once the Christian Congregation was established, there was no need for miracles to impress unbelievers. Paul called that "the traits of a child". If you need miracles in order to believe these days, then faith is redundant. Mature Christians do not need to "walk by sight".....true faith gives them a different vision.
I am a definite believer in miracles. I haven't known it to be that hard to jack up a car. This case could be a miracle or just an adrenaline boost.
arthra
Baha'i
For me miracles can happen everyday... To me it's a miracle I'm here typing and communicating with people everywhere... It's miracle I became who I am after a few cells got together over seventy years ago and I'm breathing air and talking to neighbors! Every day is a miracle.. I live in one of the most beautiful valleys surrounded by snow capped peaks and that I have a lovely wife and I'm loved by my children... It's a miracle!
Years ago my father was trying to get a sick horse on his feet... His daughter..my sister then twelve years old was there... Turns out the horse kicked our father in the forehead crushing his sinuses knowking him out... My twelve year old sister had the presence of mind to call for help! The ranch was between county jurisdictions and the rescue people were not sure where they were.. The ranch was back from the road a piece.. Some how God's mercy and blessings showered them and my father was taken to a hospital miles away...and this before there were cell phones or Siri! My father survived... He did have a depression where his sinuses had been.
Years ago my father was trying to get a sick horse on his feet... His daughter..my sister then twelve years old was there... Turns out the horse kicked our father in the forehead crushing his sinuses knowking him out... My twelve year old sister had the presence of mind to call for help! The ranch was between county jurisdictions and the rescue people were not sure where they were.. The ranch was back from the road a piece.. Some how God's mercy and blessings showered them and my father was taken to a hospital miles away...and this before there were cell phones or Siri! My father survived... He did have a depression where his sinuses had been.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
In my thinking there is no such thing as a miracle, what we believe to be a so called miracle is just a coincidence and nothing else.
Why?
Nothing about the supernatural mentioned there. What gives? And in sense two, the term "miracle" absolutely applies.Merriam Webster Dictionary on Miracle said:
Satans_Serrated_Edge
Deicidal
Well no, it was adrenaline and leverage, but let's pretend it was a miracle..IE the Judeo-Christian god exists and gave the lad the strength through divine intervention.
What would that say about your god?
P1) He is capable of intervention.
P2) He, being capable of intervention, still chooses not to in every instance of someone being murdered, raped, tortured, beaten,etc etc etc.
C1) the Judeo-Christian god cares about very few, but not most.
C2) The Judeo-Christian god is willing to let bad things happen to people.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
"C1) the Judeo-Christian god cares about very few, but not most."
So you have the power to read the mind of a deity? You could say he does not act when you think he should, but you cannot know the thoughts of others simply based on their actions or lack of actions. That goes for gods and humans.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
It's a miracle that anything substantive ever gets communicated using the English language.
Then again, I'm not totally convinced that it does.
Then again, I'm not totally convinced that it does.
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It's specious is what it is.
I haven't seen an automotive jack yet that takes 50 pounds of force to pump it.
FunctionalAtheist
Hammer of Reason
I was asked to use whatever definition of miracle made sense to me!
So, you do not consider divine to be supernatural? The word may not have been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure most theists believe their divine entity to be above, outside, super, to nature.
So you believe a bridge is a miracle? I agree terms can mean different things in different context. Of course that opens it up to the idea that it's a miracle I woke up this morning! It's a miracle we invented a bomb that leveled and entire city and killed untold thousands!
I do not; deities need not be supernatural. The insistence that gods must be supernatural comes to us largely from classical monotheist traditions, so it is the prevailing story told and heard in Western culture. Outside of that cultural confines, you find more variability. Theologies whose gods are primarily immanent (aka, basically most of those that aren't Abrahamic) don't have this dualistic "natural vs supernatural" thing going on - the gods are the world, which means they are natural. Such an attitude is the norm amongst contemporary Pagans as far as I've observed, as is rejection of "supernatural." I've seen that attitude sometimes in Unitarian Universalist folks or New Agers as well. I've less direct experience with traditions outside of these.
Regardless of all that, the second sense of "miracle" doesn't involve deities at all. The term "miracle," like the term "magic," is used on common parlance to refer to any sort of amazing or extraordinary or awe-inspiring event. That said, the OP could be interpreted as two questions. Since the OP is agnostic about what definition of "miracle" we use, we can ask "is this a divine miracle?" versus "is this an extraordinary occurrence?" To the second, I wager most of us would say yes. To the first, I personally have no comment. I was not there, and whatever story they wish to tell about it is fine with me if it serves them well.
I can't say I care what "most theists" believe. "Most theists" demographically are Christians or Muslims, or monotheists whose theology involves a transcendent deity. Once upon a time, Paganism dominated and immanent gods were the norm. They still are in some parts of the world. I don't believe in limiting conversations to Abrahamic religions and monotheism as an individual who is neither one of these things.
