Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

[coconut theology]

Interesting way of reasoning, but it is impossible to kill God in any shape or form.

Divinity didn't die. Humanity did.

 

[Brian2]

I believe that is why it helps to be cloistered away from distractions. Howeve the silence at a Quaker meeting never helped me any. I heard God a lot better in charismatic worship settings.

No doubt God can reach us even in our busy and loud life but it helps to devote time to Him. Our busy life can be very distracting.
What I was getting at with the Elijah quote is that Elijah recognised God in His words, something that relates to the Son as the Word of God.

 

[Brian2]

Interesting way of reasoning, but it is impossible to kill God in any shape or form.

It is possible to kill a man but you JWs have a wrong understanding of death and think that Jesus went out of existence then and so cannot have been God.
The Jews probably thought that if Jesus was the Messiah they would not be able to kill Him, but they did not understand the scriptures which speak about them killing their King, the Messiah who has been appointed to be God's firstborn. (Ps 89)

 

[Brian2]

So when do you think mankind knew what happens when they die?

When God told humans. It was a progressive revelation. Ideas developed about what would happen however as various spiritual beliefs developed.

 

[Oeste]

Talk about jump around.

I had to talk about it because we still don't have answers. From my perspective it looks like the JW's are bringing up every topic under the sun to avoid the Opening Post.

 

[Oeste]

Interesting way of reasoning, but it is impossible to kill God in any shape or form.

Divinity didn't die. Humanity did.

CT is correct. The Son of Man could and did die (but was raised again) however the Son of God did not die.

So let's talk about death while we wait for some answers to the OP and other questions.

The Watchtower claims we are "unconscious" when we die:

Lazarus said nothing about his experience of death because the dead are unconscious (What Hope is there for the Dead?) source​

Incredulously, the WT then tells us that when we die we "cease to exist":

When Adam and Eve died, they returned to the dust. They ceased to exist. (WT 8/1/91) source​

How can someone who has "ceased to exist" be "unconscious"? How does the someone "unconscious" also "cease to exist"? This makes no sense whatsoever!

Someone no longer existing cannot possibly be unconscious, and someone unconscious cannot possibly have ceased to exist! You can be one or the other, but you can't be both.


Surely @YoursTrue, @cataway and some of the other Witnesses here raised this rather basic point up at study. What was their answer?

 

[YoursTrue]

I do not say there was nothing, I say there was the creator, just as you do.

The Creator was there "in the beginning." But then you have to ask yourself, the beginning of what?

Sure in a human story that is probably the case, but in the story of God, the beginning is completely different, it is actually the beginning.
"There I was, having been alone for almost an infinite amount of time and I was going nuts. I knew I had to create something soon, but when would I decide to do it? Should I do it at infinity plus 1 seconds or infinity plus 2 second, no I'll do it when I've been here for an infinite length of time..............it was all becoming too much, the butterflies in my spiritual stomach had been growing more intense with anticipation over the past couple of billion trillion years and I did not know how much longer I could hold back, but of course I managed to hold off till I reached an infinity amount of time and as the beginning drew near I started to get excited. This was actually going to be it, the beginning, a new era."
Now you know why I am not a writer.
It sort of reminds me of something said about God, "God is love". Interesting that God could be alone for an infinite amount of time without anyone to love. It's almost a contradiction.

It says there was a beginning. On the subject of love, it's wonderful that Jesus said you must love God as you love yourself. In order to love God then, one is to love himself.
Notice what he said at Mark 12: Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

So then, what are the two greatest commandments? To love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And to love your neighbor as YOURSELF. So God IS love, He not only IS love, but He also gives love. He wants His worshippers to love Him. We are told to love others as we LOVE OURSELVES. God is love, and is a Creator.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus in the flesh on earth had the same nature as His Father plus the nature of a servant. Phil 2
The Father was greater, being the Father and in heaven and with all power and authority and with Jesus having taken the nature of a servant and humbled Himself to live as a man etc but in nature they were equally divine.

When Jesus was dying, he prayed to his Father. Are you saying his "nature" prayed to the Father in heaven? Was his "nature" somehow connected to his flesh?

 

[YoursTrue]

Divinity didn't die. Humanity did.

So according to the trinity, when Jesus died, only his flesh died but the God within was still alive and went back to the other 2 persons in heaven? Oh except his flesh was put back on his "God nature"?

 

[YoursTrue]

When God told humans. It was a progressive revelation. Ideas developed about what would happen however as various spiritual beliefs developed.

So you think He kept Adam and Eve in the dark then about what would happen when they died, is that right about your belief? I mean He told them they would die, but do you think He also knew they didn't know what death was, as if maybe it was a reward? Maybe they didn't know what life was. What do you think?

 

[YoursTrue]

Citing again:

John 10:24 KJB - Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

John 10:25 KJB - Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:26 KJB - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 KJB - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 KJB - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 KJB - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 KJB - I and my Father are one.​

This speaks of at-one-ment, of heart, purpose, not of persons.

John 10:31 KJB - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.​

They did this, because, Jesus just claimed full equality with God, that is, the person of the Father. He had done this before [John 10:25 KJB, "... I told you, and ye believed not ..."], with the same results:

John 5:18 KJB - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8:57 KJB - Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:59 KJB - Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.​

This would have been blasphemy [Leviticus 24:14; 1 Kings 21:10 KJB], and subject for stoning, had it not been that Jesus was who He said He is.

John 10:32 KJB - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? ​

Jesus, then knowing that they do not believe His words, mercifully points them to His actions, deeds, the very miracles wrought, the lives of people delivered from satan, sin, disease, death. Many say that actions speak louder than words, and therefore, Jesus turned up the volume for them, that these willingly deaf might hear, and have no excuse for their own evil present course:

John 10:33 KJB - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.​

They unwittingly condemn themselves by acknowledging that the works of Jesus were "good works". They should have recognized then, the source of them, and recognize, that Jesus' actions, were matching His words, and have drawn the conclusion by following the result back to their source and see that the words were undeniably true, yet this they did not do, because they sought to justify themselves, and to justify their idea of what the Messiah/Christ ought to have been, and do. Jesus, having already told them [1], and shown them [2], that He was equal to God, that is the person of the Father, and did the very "good works" that the Father does, now attempts to show them from scripture [3] itself [rather than His present words, and present actions], who He is:

John 10:34 KJB - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 KJB - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​

Now, Jesus cites the scripture [OT] itself, specifically Psalms 82:1,6, in its context [see also that the priests and rulers of the people are called by God, "gods" [Exodus 4:16, 7:1, 22:28; Psalms 138:1; Daniel 8:11,25, 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJB]], which in context, meant "children of the Most High" [Psalms 82:6 KJB], all "brethren" [Matthew 23:8; Hebrews 2:11 KJB], equally Kings and Priests, under God:

Psalms 82:1 KJB - A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.​

There is a perfect parallelism:

[1A] "... God ..."

[1B] "... he ..."​

[2A] "... standeth in ..."

[2B] "... judgeth among ..."​

[3A] "... the congregation of the mighty ..."

[3B] "... the gods ..."​

Psalms 82:2 KJB - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

Psalms 82:3 KJB - Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Psalms 82:4 KJB - Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psalms 82:5 KJB - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Psalms 82:6 KJB - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.​

There is a perfect parallelism:

[1A] "I have said ..."

[1B] "... and ..."​

[2A] "... Ye are ..."

[2B] "... all of you are …"​

[3A] "... gods …"

[3B] "... children of the most High."​

Psalms 82:7 KJB - But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Psalms 82:8 KJB - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.​

In so doing, Jesus refers to God Himself, being in the midst of the His people, while He being the true just Judge, they being unjust judges, God defending the poor, fatherless, needy, etc, they turning away from them. The very moment that Jesus cites this reference to the Psalm, is exactly the moment of the contrast between Himself, His words and actions, and their [the Jews, leaders, Pharisees, etc] words and actions. So, Jesus' [1] words demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, [2] His actions, the "good works", demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, and even [3] the very scripture itself in Psalms 82, demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were. However, more than this, Jesus is drawing a greater argument from the text, notice:

John 10:36 KJB - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?​

Jesus, said "I am the Son of God", and in John 10:30 KJB, said, "I and my Father are one", which the "Jews" rightly understood Him, to make the claim that He was indeed equal to God, the person of the Father, when they said [John 10:33 KJB], "... thou ... makest thyself God."

Is Jesus backtracking from making the claim to be God [not the person of the Father, but that of the Son], or backtracking from the claim that He was equal with God [person of the Father]? No. He is making a perfect air-tight case, from scripture, which cannot be broken [John 10:35 KJB], from the 'lesser' to the 'greater'.

Jesus cited Psalms 82, saying that even the scripture called God's own people, "gods", meaning that they were to be just judges, even "children of the most High", and thus were all 'sons of God' in that sense, called to be like Him in character, words, actions, etc. Jesus had claimed to be the actual "Son of God", who from eternity was equal with the Father. Jesus is saying, since the scripture called the adopted persons 'gods', 'children of the most High', which none of them argued with, how much more then does the actual un-adopted, original, eternal, only begotten heir have claim to such, as "Son of God", and they all knew of the person from the OT, see "my fellow" [Zechariah 13:7 KJB], the person at the bush with Moses [Exodus 3 & 4, 23:21 KJB], with Joshua [Joshua 5:13-15 KJB], etc, etc, and the coming "son" [Isaiah 9:6] who was given from the Father.

Therefore, which had the greater claim to the designation and responsibility, the actual Son of God, or those who were later called into the family of God, through adoption, whom were all called "gods", "children of the most High", "sons of God" [Genesis 6:2,4; Hosea 1:10; Ezekiel 16:21 KJB, etc]? How then could they stone Jesus, since the Messiah was the real Son of God, and they all only called and adopted? They would to have as soon stone themselves before they could rightfully stone Jesus for the rightful claim, which was superior in every way to their claim to such. Jesus is not saying that He is not God, nor lessening the arguments and words beforehand made, nor backtracking to save Himself, He, instead is making the perfect unarguable case, from scripture that He is who He said He is, drawing from the 'lesser' to the 'greater' example. Jesus finishes by pointing back again to His actions, which were fulfilling the very scriptures:

John 10:37 KJB - If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 KJB - But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 10:39 KJB - Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,​

They did not care about all three means by which Jesus sought to show them, because, they were unjust, and proved themselves so and stubbornly wanted to remain so. They could not refute Jesus' words, actions or scripture.

Did Jesus ever say the holy spirit was within him, as he said the Father is in him?

 

[Oeste]

So according to the trinity, when Jesus died, only his flesh died

Jesus Son of Man died.

but the God within was still alive

This goes back to what I attempted to discuss with you before. The WT’s concept of God is finite. The Christian concept of God as revealed through progressive revelation (Old-New Testaments) is infinite… we cannot conceive of His scope, purpose, holiness or majesty.

God is not confined to a point in space and time within His creation. Instead, space and time are simply creations within God. As such, God is everywhere. So He is not simply “within” but He is also “without”.

As far as being “still alive” God is always alive. He doesn’t die, He doesn’t become “unconscious” and He never “ceases to exist”. It is unfathomable to ask if God was "still" alive when He always has been, always is, and will always be.

and went back to the other 2 persons in heaven?

He never left.

Remember, God is no more contained in the heavens anymore than He is contained in the star cluster Pleiades. He shows Himself in creation, but creation cannot be used to confine or define the biblical God.

Oh except his flesh was put back on his "God nature"?

We both know Jesus’ body never saw decay so why do you ask of his flesh? Jesus the Son of Man dies, so Jesus the Son of Man is resurrected. The Son of God did not become unconscious, and He certainly did not “cease to exist”.

______________________________________________________________________________________


It seems to me Jehovah Witnesses feel free to ask these questions of Trinitarians but feign rebuff or provide deflection when Trinitarians ask the same questions of Jehovah Witnesses.

Let’s test this theory:

1. What happened to Michael the Archangel's spirit body when Jesus was born?
2. Did Michael die so that Jesus might have life, or was Michael still alive as a spirit creature when Jesus was on earth?
   
3. Was Michael transplanted into Jesus so that he could still live?
   
4. Did Michael “cease to exist”, was he “unconscious” or both at the moment of Jesus' birth?
   
5. If Michael “ceased to exist” will he be resurrected?
   
6. If Michael's spirit body is “unconscious” when does it awake?
   
7. Where was Michael when Jesus was born?
   
8. When Jesus died did Michael die with him? If not where did he go?
9. Is Jesus part man and part angel?
   
10. If Jesus is not part angel, doesn't this mean Michael is no longer alive?
11. If Jesus is part angel, doesn't this mean Jesus was never really a man?
12. Did Michael get resurrected along with Jesus and go back to heaven, did Michael take Jesus' place, or were both spirit creatures merged together?
    
13. Where is Michael now?

You demand answers of Christian Christology @YoursTrue but can you provide the same for yours?

I am sure you've asked the same questions of Witnesses that you ask of Trinitarians so it will be interesting to see how or if you or any other Witness respond. Will they respond with relevant answers as we have responded, will they respond with deflections (that is with another question), or will we hear the sound of crickets?

Jehovah Witnesses, it's "bible study" time and your audience awaits. Of course, those other questions are still there, but anyone should feel free to answer these questions now.

 

[Brian2]

The Creator was there "in the beginning." But then you have to ask yourself, the beginning of what?

The language people seem to say that "beginning" is used in an absolute way here. There is no event or situation that it refers to in a restrictive sense eg "beginning of the gospel" Mark 1:1, "Beginning of sorrows" Mark 13:8.
It could refer to Genesis 1:1 when God started His creative work.
I know the WT has a theory that the angels were created before this beginning BUT that is not found in the Bible and if it was found there then that point would be the beginning in an absolute sense I guess and not Gen 1:1. The thing is that whenever this point is, the Word was there already.

It says there was a beginning. On the subject of love, it's wonderful that Jesus said you must love God as you love yourself. In order to love God then, one is to love himself.

It says to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. But I guess if we do not love ourselves how could we love our neighbour.

We are told to love others as we LOVE OURSELVES. God is love, and is a Creator.

I see where you are going. Nice answer. We love ourselves so God loves Himself.

 

[Brian2]

When Jesus was dying, he prayed to his Father. Are you saying his "nature" prayed to the Father in heaven? Was his "nature" somehow connected to his flesh?

I know the WT says that Phil 2 does not think "form" means "nature" but means that the prehuman Jesus was a spirit. As I have said, the grammar shows that Jesus took this form into being human.

Zechariah 12:1b – “… Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.”

Jesus as a man is a spirit and a body, as we all are. The spirit is connected to the flesh it seems in Zech 12:1.
So I never heard from you about Phil 2 and it's either meaning that the pre human Jesus was God by nature or has the form of a spirit even as a man. Which is your preferred option?

So anyway, getting back to the question you asked. I'm saying that Jesus the man, combined spirit and body, prayed to His Father. Jesus the man was both God and man by nature and the whole man prayed to His Father.

 

[Brian2]

So you think He kept Adam and Eve in the dark then about what would happen when they died, is that right about your belief? I mean He told them they would die, but do you think He also knew they didn't know what death was, as if maybe it was a reward? Maybe they didn't know what life was. What do you think?

Maybe they did not know many things. Maybe they saw animals or plants die and had the idea that it meant that they would not be alive,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but there is nothing there that tells us they knew every detail of what death meant as far as I can see. Do you see anything? Do you think they would just assume it meant they went out of existence? That is not even said to be what happens anywhere in the Bible. It is not even part of the revelation of what death is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even though that is what the WT tells us death is. Has the WT made that up do you think or are there places which tell us that death means going out of existence?

 

[YoursTrue]

Maybe they did not know many things. Maybe they saw animals or plants die and had the idea that it meant that they would not be alive,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but there is nothing there that tells us they knew every detail of what death meant as far as I can see. Do you see anything? Do you think they would just assume it meant they went out of existence? That is not even said to be what happens anywhere in the Bible. It is not even part of the revelation of what death is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even though that is what the WT tells us death is. Has the WT made that up do you think or are there places which tell us that death means going out of existence?

Here's what I do know. Plants they saw were "alive," but did not necessarily continue living. They knew if they ate that fruit they would die. Do you think they considered that death was a good thing (maybe a present) offered by God?

 

[YoursTrue]

Maybe they did not know many things. Maybe they saw animals or plants die and had the idea that it meant that they would not be alive,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but there is nothing there that tells us they knew every detail of what death meant as far as I can see. Do you see anything? Do you think they would just assume it meant they went out of existence? That is not even said to be what happens anywhere in the Bible. It is not even part of the revelation of what death is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even though that is what the WT tells us death is. Has the WT made that up do you think or are there places which tell us that death means going out of existence?

I don't know how long they were there before they ate from the tree God told them not to eat from. I do know that given enough time, if a plant or animal dies of its own accord, it goes back to the ground, in other words, the body disintegrates and dissolves, and goes back to the ground (or where it came from--the ground).
I also know that if a fruit stays long enough on a tree, it should fall to the ground and dissolve. So they could possibly have seen the difference between something being edible (in the case of fruit) and what was rotten fruit, not on the vine.

 

[YoursTrue]

Divinity didn't die. Humanity did.

How did humanity die when Jesus died? What about Mary? Was she God in human form also?

 

[YoursTrue]

I know the WT says that Phil 2 does not think "form" means "nature" but means that the prehuman Jesus was a spirit. As I have said, the grammar shows that Jesus took this form into being human.

Zechariah 12:1b – “… Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.”

Jesus as a man is a spirit and a body, as we all are. The spirit is connected to the flesh it seems in Zech 12:1.
So I never heard from you about Phil 2 and it's either meaning that the pre human Jesus was God by nature or has the form of a spirit even as a man. Which is your preferred option?

So anyway, getting back to the question you asked. I'm saying that Jesus the man, combined spirit and body, prayed to His Father. Jesus the man was both God and man by nature and the whole man prayed to His Father.

As far as hearing from me, unfortunately I don't have the time to read everything. Since I don't understand the term "God by nature." Before I get onto other topics you bring up, whatever does "God by nature" mean? (Either one is God or he isn't God.)

 

[Brian2]

Here's what I do know. Plants they saw were "alive," but did not necessarily continue living. They knew if they ate that fruit they would die. Do you think they considered that death was a good thing (maybe a present) offered by God?

No