We are Justified and Sanctified by Faith and Works

[FFH]

We cannot be saved by our works [alone], without the atonement of Jesus Christ, "lest any man should boast".

Likewise we cannot be saved by our faith [alone].

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith [alone]" save him?" James 2: 14, 17-18, 20, 22, 24, 26

We must excercise faith in Christ, who justifies and sanctifies us from all sin, "after all that we can do".2 Nephi 25: 23 (Book of Mormon)

"...after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. 2 Nephi 10: 24 (Book of Mormon)

Can a man remain in sin and enter into heaven?

Those who preach "faith in Christ [alone] will save us" are suggesting we can...

Christ's atonement is not a liscense to sin...

We must obey the commandments [works] and excercise faith in Christ's atonement before we will be justified and sanctified from sin.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3: 23

Ephesians 2

8- For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; [we cannot save ourselves by our good works alone, without Chtst's atonement]* but it is the gift of God;

9- Not of works, [alone we cannot save ourselves]* lest any man should boast.

* [words added by FFH]

Grace and Love by Kutless

Kutless - Grace and Love

 

[Makhsihed]

Is there any point to this post other than to preach? What are you looking to have discussed, exactly?

 

[Bishka]

Is there any point to this post other than to preach? What are you looking to have discussed, exactly?

This is in response to another's posters question about justification and santicfication as far as I know.

 

[bible truth]

We cannot be saved by our works [alone], without the atonement of Jesus Christ, "lest any man should boast".

Likewise we cannot be saved by our faith [alone].

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith [alone]" save him?" James 2: 14, 17-18, 20, 22, 24, 26

We must excercise faith in Christ, who justifies and sanctifies us from all sin, "after all that we can do".2 Nephi 25: 23 (Book of Mormon)

"...after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. 2 Nephi 10: 24 (Book of Mormon)

Can a man remain in sin and enter into heaven?

Those who preach "faith in Christ [alone] will save us" are suggesting we can...

Christ's atonement is not a liscense to sin...

We must obey the commandments [works] and excercise faith in Christ's atonement before we will be justified and sanctified from sin.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3: 23

Ephesians 2

8- For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; [we cannot save ourselves by our good works alone, without Chtst's atonement]* but it is the gift of God;

9- Not of works, [alone we cannot save ourselves]* lest any man should boast.

* [words added by FFH]

Grace and Love by Kutless

Kutless - Grace and Love

Okay my Mormon friends,

This is why evangelical Christians do not consider you brothers and sisters in Christ. The doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel. I believe the word justification or justified, etc is used 60 times in the book of Romans.

When Martin Luther stated that 'justification by faith alone is the article in which the church stands or falls' (paraphrased), he is stating the line in the sand that is drawn in regards to co-fellowship in Christ. This same truth applies to Roman Catholicism too.

The doctrine of justification is the essential truth of the gospel of God. I hope this helps you understand all of our other Threads. Please read all of Romans in context. For a shortcut, read Romans chapters 3 and chapters 4 in regards to justification. Also, the book of Galatians is considered a short version of Romans too. - BT

 

[Bishka]

When Martin Luther stated that 'justification by faith alone is the article in which

You cannot be serious, can you? Martin Luther is not an author of the Bible nor is he "Bible Alone"; so why are you taking from him if you are a true "Bible Alone" Christian? It's a bit hypocritical, you think?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You cannot be serious, can you? Martin Luther is not an author of the Bible nor is he "Bible Alone"; so why are you taking from him if you are a tru "Bible Alone" Christian? It's a bit hypocritical, you think?

Excellent point, LOL!

 

[Bishka]

Excellent point, LOL!

At least he'll see my response now. He's currently put me on ignore, because, as a woman, I'm too 'emotional' about this subject and about wanting to be called a Christian.

 

[Comprehend]

Okay my Mormon friends,

This is why evangelical Christians do not consider you brothers and sisters in Christ. The doctrine of justification is the heart of the gospel. I believe the word justification or justified, etc is used 60 times in the book of Romans.

When Martin Luther stated that 'justification by faith alone is the article in which the church stands or falls' (paraphrased), he is stating the line in the sand that is drawn in regards to co-fellowship in Christ. This same truth applies to Roman Catholicism too.

The doctrine of justification is the essential truth of the gospel of God. I hope this helps you understand all of our other Threads. Please read all of Romans in context. For a shortcut, read Romans chapters 3 and chapters 4 in regards to justification. Also, the book of Galatians is considered a short version of Romans too. - BT

well, you need to study up on LDS doctrine then because we believe we are justified by faith and not works. just like you.


oh yes, and you can also call us christians now and apologize.

Moses 6:60
60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

2 Ne 2:5
5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

D&C 20:29-34
29 And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.
30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true;
31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength.
32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God;
33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation;
34 Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also.

Hyrum L. Andrus, The Glory of God and Man's Relation to Deity , p.36

This is the doctrine of "justification by grace," about which Joseph Smith wrote by way of revelation: "We know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true." (D&C 20:30.)
It should be stressed that to be justified man is required to have faith in Christ, repent and be baptized, but it is the atonement of Christ that paid the debt of justice. Man by his good works does not save himself. Christ is the Savior. Justification by grace is like a common coin: it has two sides. On one side is the program by which Christ reconciled the demands of divine law, by paying the debt of eternal justice. On the other side is the program by which man must be reconciled to Christ. Man's good works do not pay the debt of justice; they merely reconcile man to Christ, and Christ pays the debt of justice. Hence, justification is by grace and not by man's works.
Of the great issue of eternal justice and the fact that Christ paid its legal requirements that He might offer mercy unto man, Amulek said:
... Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world. ...
And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.
And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice. ... (Alma 34:8, 15-16.)

 

[Green Gaia]

Is this "debate" for Christians only; would a UUs thoughts on the subject be too heretical?

 

[Bishka]

Is this "debate" for Christians only; would a UUs thoughts on the subject be too heretical?

Go right ahead Amy. It isn't a same-faith debate, so you are quite open to state your 'herietical' views.

 

[bible truth]

well, you need to study up on LDS doctrine then because we believe we are justified by faith and not works. just like you.


oh yes, and you can also call us christians now and apologize.

LOL...not so fast my friend Comprehend,

Are you justifed by faith alone?

Can you say that you are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and by the person and work of Christ alone?

Can you say salvation is all of grace? If so, please give me your definition of grace.

Your favorite Bible alone friend,
BT

 

[bible truth]

Is this "debate" for Christians only; would a UUs thoughts on the subject be too heretical?

Of course not...please share with us. We are still debating if Mormons are Christians...lol.

 

[Bishka]

Of course not...please share with us. We are still debating if Mormons are Christians...lol.

Not in this thread we aren't, and it seems to be you and a few 'bible-alone' people that are debating whether we are Christians or not. The admionstrational staff and moderator staff all treats us as Christians, as by evidencing that the LDS Church forum is placed under the Restorationits/Christian section. Green Gaia hardly thinks that we aren't Christian.

 

[Green Gaia]

Of course not...please share with us. We are still debating if Mormons are Christians...lol.

Well, I have no interest in debating the act of exclusion. But prehaps later I will give my thoughts on salvation/faith and works only because I get to use my favorite Bible verse.

 

[FFH]

Well, I have no interest in debating the act of exclusion. But prehaps later I will give my thoughts on salvation/faith and works only because I get to use my favorite Bible verse.

Go ahead and share your thoughts...

This is in Religious Debates, but I guess that wasn't broad enough to include everyone..

Just figured this was more of a Biblical debate and didn't realize it could include all religions.

So you would rather see this in General Religious Debates in order to feel more comfortable about sharing your thoughts I guess.

Don't want to exclude anyone.

Please all feel free to share your thoughts...

 

[FFH]

Is there any point to this post other than to preach? What are you looking to have discussed, exactly?

It's more about sharpening our understanding of this subject.

The Book of Mormon seems to shed a lot of light on this subject, much much more than I have posted... It's an intrigual part of my religious understanding of this subject.

James 2 also goes into a lot of detail about this subject...

I like James 2 the best...

 

[Arrow]

The first verse that FFH put on I believe was Ephesians 2: 8-9 correct?
I disagree with the paraphrased version though.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I would say that to claim that works have anything to do with our salvation would be to deny God's sovereignty in the workings of getting us saved. If we look at the Jews, nothing they did stopped them from being the chosen people of God. Even in the New Testament according to Paul they are still more blessed than the Gentiles. If salvation was dependent upon works would not God have gotten a new chosen people because the Jews definitely did not work worthy of the calling which had been bestowed upon them.

The reference in James points to the uselessness of faith without works. Why believe in a cause if you are not going to fight for it? We are still apart of a cause if we believe in it, but the cause is only worth anything if we do something for it. In the same way i can be a Christian and then not act like a Christian, but what would be the point. Works is a result of the faith that we have because we believe so fully in something that we want to please our Master not to pay Him back or keep our salvation, but to know that we please Him.

As far as anything that comes out of the Book of Mormon i cannot regard it as valid as i am not arguing what Mormonism believes but what the Bible has to say. I am sorry that this seems harsh, because i do not mean any disrespect to Mormonism at the same time though i cannot regard Mormonism as Christianity. I am sorry.

And i am sorry if i made anyone mad at me because that is not my intention just arguing from a Calvinist point of view.

 

[FFH]

The first verse that FFH put on I believe was Ephesians 2: 8-9 correct?

Yes, Ephesians 2 seems to confuse the matter about whether works are a necessary part of our salvation.

I disagree with the paraphrased version though.

Just trying to clarify this verse in Ephesians 2:9 which seems to divide Christian sects. It seems to be a MAJOR point of contention between Christian religions...

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

The only thing I would emphasize, which Christ I think was trying to say, is that we should not glory in our works, but glory in Jesus Christ's sacrifice, which becomes our link to our salvation, after all that we can do..

After all that we can do it comes down to Christ's sacrifice which seals the deal and allows us to be partakers of salvation with God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yet Jesus requires good works in order to be saved...

We need to read, not just one scripture, but all of them, in order to understand what Christ was trying to say in Ephesians 2: 9...

Read it and allow the SPirit to speak to your heart and mind and see if faith alone can save us. I say no way, it's just an excuse to allow Christians to keep on sinning.

I'm typing this from memory so got to forgive me if I don't get it exactly right.

Matthew 7: 21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

We cannot discard scriptures like this which command us to do something in order to complete our salvation.

Our works, plus faith in Christ and his atoning sacrifice for sin, complete our salvation. One cannot exist without the other, otherwise our faith alone, or our works alone, are in vain..

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Christ tells us here that we should walk in good works. This is a commandment and a necessary part of our salvation...

I would say that to claim that works have anything to do with our salvation would be to deny God's sovereignty in the workings of getting us saved. If we look at the Jews, nothing they did stopped them from being the chosen people of God.

Yes, many were slaughtered when Moses asked "Who's on the Lord's side" after coming down off of Mt Sinai after receiving the Ten Commandments and seeing the Children of Israel half naked and worshipping a golden image of a calf

Even in the New Testament according to Paul they are still more blessed than the Gentiles.

Yes, because they were probably busy doing good works, not just sitting around beleiving in a Messiah that had already come unto them..

If salvation was dependent upon works would not God have gotten a new chosen people because the Jews definitely did not work worthy of the calling which had been bestowed upon them.

Yes, the gospel was preached unto the Jews and they basically rejected it and now it is being preached to the Gentiles and we can be adopted into God's chosen lineage if we accept Christ (as will the Jews at a later date)....

The reference in James points to the uselessness of faith without works. Why believe in a cause if you are not going to fight for it? We are still apart of a cause if we believe in it, but the cause is only worth anything if we do something for it. In the same way i can be a Christian and then not act like a Christian, but what would be the point. Works is a result of the faith that we have because we believe so fully in something that we want to please our Master not to pay Him back or keep our salvation, but to know that we please Him.

Men do not automatically do good works after they have been converted to Christ...

Men are carnal and develish and need to do good works or they will fall back into a pattern of sin..

As far as anything that comes out of the Book of Mormon i cannot regard it as valid as i am not arguing what Mormonism believes but what the Bible has to say. I am sorry that this seems harsh, because i do not mean any disrespect to Mormonism at the same time though i cannot regard Mormonism as Christianity. I am sorry.

No big deal, just sharing what it says because it seems to clarify this subject so welll, but there are plenty of New Testament scriptures which shed plenty of light on this subject and refute the idea of being saved by faith alone...

Are we really reading the Bible or just picking scriptures here and there which seem to allow us to live our sinful life, while ignoring Christ's commandment to be perfect..

Perfection can be obtained to a certain degree, that's when Christ's atonement takes over and fills in the gaps where we fall short.

I will start a thread on "Perfection" later..

Christ wants us to perfectly love God the Father and our fellow man. Alll else will fall into place if we do these two things. Christ is our example of perfection, which can be obtained if we love God and our fellow man with a perfect love, which casts out all fear.

And i am sorry if i made anyone mad at me because that is not my intention just arguing from a Calvinist point of view.

Yes, and this is a really good argument and something that needs to be addressed.

 

[Arrow]

Quote:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
The only thing I would emphasize, which Christ I think was trying to say, is that we should not glory in our works, but glory in Jesus Christ's sacrifice, which becomes our link to our salvation, after all that we can do..

If it is a gift i dont think we should have to do anything for it otherwise it would destroy the concept of salvation being a gift. If works are involved then our salvation would be somewhat deserved, which i do not think we deserve.

To respond to vs 10
Should implies ought not necessity

For clarity:
How do works help for our salvation?
or what do they do to help us with salvation?

As far as the Jews are concerned:
They were punished, but their status as God's chosen people was never taken away no matter how sinful the people were even during God's period of silence.

I agree that men do not automatically do good works. We first have to have faith because without faith it is impossible to please God. Thus one must be a believer before he can perform any good work. Faith is given by the Holy Spirit thus any good action is done by God and not us. My point i guess is that we only have two options in this world: let God reign or let our selfish reign. If we let God reign good works our done not because we do them but because God does them through us. If we let our selfishness reign then we are letting ourselves do our selfish actions. (I might be stretching here) versus to back this up coming later but i got to get some stuff done. I am really sorry i got to go.