We can't choose to believe?

[Acim]

If a person can make every move with the intention of winning and still lose, or if someone can make every move with the intention of losing and still win, or if someone can make every move randomly and still win, the decision to play to win does not translate into a decision to win.

Because the decision to play to win can result in winning, then it does translate. That the decision to play to win can result in losing, conveys a mistake in belief. Either way, it would be a choice the player makes.

Beliefs are positions which are held to be true.

We arrive at beliefs as a result of our understanding and perspective of the world. We do not "choose" them in the sense that when presented with a number of viable options we can voluntarily "decide" which one we find to be true - just as you cannot, as a voluntary act of will, decide which foods you enjoy, what shape the sun is, or the outcome of a game of chess.

Some beliefs are preferences. I can choose to like certain foods, and may currently believe I know my preferences. Again, this may be a mistaken belief. I may update the beliefs, based on experience and choices to believe that other foods would be to my liking. IMO, the experience matters only slightly. I am free to believe whatever I wish about the shape of the sun, or the outcome of a game. I can hold these beliefs as true. And I can change my mind, choose otherwise, or even choose to believe both. I believe the world is both flat and round. It is possible to choose both.

We can influence the outcome of these mental processes to a degree, but this does not mean we influence the outcome in the same way.

The outcome may have nothing to do with our beliefs. Or it may have everything to do with our beliefs. Either way, we are free to choose along the way, and after the outcome, what we hold as true.

You cannot voluntarily recalibrate the extent to which you find a given proposition truthful, but instead this is done with adjusting of perspective and new information or experiences.

I can recalibrate the extent to which I find a given proposition truthful. I do this a lot. Everyday I've been alive, I think I've done this. Probably have done it dozens of times today. New information (some of which are other beliefs) and experience will influence this, but belief / ideas / thoughts trump them all.

As such, beliefs are not simply "chosen" as a voluntary process, but are the result of largely subconscious mental processes.

In some cases, yes. Disagree it is largely subconscious. I guess it would depend on the set of propositions. The ones that come up daily to my awareness and that I act on, are chosen beliefs. The others are perhaps not, but even that I find debatable.

That is false. You're welcome to prove me wrong by choosing to believe that sandwiches are hats.

Fine. I choose to believe sandwiches are hats. Not too difficult. I can simultaneously belief sandwiches are food, and sandwiches are a thing that is necessary to be around for my favorite sports team to win, and accept as true that sandwiches are pure evil. Or, tomorrow, I may believe none of these are true propositions. Others may say, "but it is still a food." And I may say, "I no longer believe that, and because of that belief, I have stopped ingesting them." It is a choice in belief I am free to make.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Binary beliefs fit within the definition of beliefs.

No they don't. Saying you accept something, or acting in accordance with something, isn't the same thing as accepting said something as true.

The article says they are the usual form of beliefs.

No, it says we usually THINK OF THEM as beliefs because they are the beliefs people state or act on. I.E: "This person says they believe X / this person acts as if X is true, therefore I assume they accept X a s true."

They aren't the only form. You are the only one suggesting they are not. The definitions have already been noted. Again, the definitions don't use the same terms you do to assess what a belief is, or is not.

Find one that directly contradicts "a proposition which is held to be true".

I observe you doing the same, in your own way. You use the terms "outcome" and "conclusion." None of the links you provide share in that terminology. Thus, your chess metaphor either doesn't apply or is a DISHONEST attempt to re-define what beliefs are and then hold everyone else to YOUR LIMITED DEFINITION.

The metaphor isn't an attempt to DEFINE beliefs, it is an attempt to illustrate how we ARRIVE at beliefs. If my definition of beliefs is limited, find one that contradicts it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because the decision to play to win can result in winning, then it does translate. That the decision to play to win can result in losing, conveys a mistake in belief. Either way, it would be a choice the player makes.

I'm really starting to wonder whether you're making any real effort to understand what I'm explaining at this point. Do you or do you not understand how "I choose to play to win" doesn't mean "I choose to win"?

Some beliefs are preferences. I can choose to like certain foods, and may currently believe I know my preferences.

Can you choose to like eating tree bark? Or cat urine? Or nothing?

Again, this may be a mistaken belief. I may update the beliefs, based on experience and choices to believe that other foods would be to my liking. IMO, the experience matters only slightly. I am free to believe whatever I wish about the shape of the sun, or the outcome of a game. I can hold these beliefs as true. And I can change my mind, choose otherwise, or even choose to believe both. I believe the world is both flat and round. It is possible to choose both.

Then this discussion is over, because you can't possibly do any of those things.

 

[Acim]

You would know this is false if you knew the dictionary definition of belief.

I believe the dictionary implies that beliefs are chosen. When my dictionary says:

an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists

It is the acceptance part where I see choice as clearly coming in. That something exists, is not predicated on my belief (though it plausibly could be). That a statement is true, will for beliefs, be based partly on my discernment and partly on what others hold to be true. For a belief, it is mostly to entirely up to me. The acceptance part of the definition suggest I / anyone can not accept it, which would plausibly lead to accepting another belief (statement) as true.

If you accept that anything I, or anyone, in this thread is statements / propositions are true, for you, that is your choice. It is not really possible for anyone other than you to make that choice (of acceptance). But by not accepting, you have still made a choice, and thus call it misunderstanding, or as I interpret it, mistaken belief.

Like you have said a belief is a conclusion / outcome of the intellectual process of assessment. If someone else says, it doesn't really have to do with outcomes, you can say they are misunderstanding things which is your belief. The proposition you hold to be true is that they are mistaken in their belief, about beliefs. It is also plausible that you are mistaken as well. No?

It is not "my choice" to accept it as it is, and accept as true those things that have convinced me of their truth.

You do not have a choice in accepting things? I find that fascinating.

You keep asserting this, and it's meaningless. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that we don't choose the things that are convincing to us?

Because I don't see how it could be devoid of choice except with things that are out of our control, and even that I would find debatable. Every example you've provide, or has been stated in OP, or elsewhere in this thread, are items I've shown how it could be chosen to believe in what some say is not possible. I don't get why anyone would see that as an impossible choice to make. I even brought up an example that I find significant, i.e. whether to accept the proposition that I am my body or that I am in my body, but my body is not who I am. Another could observe me as a body/in my body. Thus both are observably happening simultaneously, but which proposition I hold as true is a matter of choice, while also having high degrees of certainty. Enough to build an entire universe of reality around that choice.

The idea of choosing to believe sandwiches are hats, strikes me as easy stuff to play around with on this topic. Likely seen as nonsensical to some, but just fun to play with type stuff IMO. Literally, who would care if someone saw sandwiches as hats and acted on the belief, rather than just holding a (statement of) belief about it?

 

[Acim]

I didn't say that was a definition of belief. I simply said that's something that beliefs are. They aren't necessarily defined by that, prescriptively.

Sorry, but when you say what something is, you are providing definition. Perhaps you could've prefaced all that with more precise language such as, "the properties of beliefs, in my opinion, which no dictionary makes note of, are....."

Because I never said that was the definition. You are clearly being dishonest here, as you already understand my definition of belief is "a proposition which is held to be true".

Not being dishonest. Just trying to understand your beliefs about beliefs and working with definitions you are adding into the mix, which are not found in a dictionary.

They don't have a choice as to whether or not they personally find the proposition convincing enough to determine it either true or false.

Sure they do. Hence the acceptance portion of the dictionary's definition regarding beliefs.

It's plausible they could SAY it, but it's not plausible for anyone who understands that "married" and "bachelor" are mutually exclusive terms to genuinely accept the proposition as true.

So, then this gets back to mistaken beliefs and what you are implying with 'genuine belief.' Perhaps it might be pertinent to ask you if you think people can choose mistaken beliefs?

No it isn't, it's the consequence of their experience and understanding that leads to beliefs changing or being adjusted. It is not "choice".

I see it as both / or all of the things you are stating. I see it foremost as choice, you exclude that aspect. Hence the debate continues. I'll ask my questions as I have in this post and will see your responses. Feel free to ask yours and we'll see how I fare. You claim I don't understand the definition of beliefs. Feel free to test that whenever you desire.

 

[Acim]

No they don't. Saying you accept something, or acting in accordance with something, isn't the same thing as accepting said something as true.

Because you have left off the "as true" part. A binary belief as stated in the previously linked piece is "2 plus 2 equals four." Without expressing it, a person can accept that proposition as true, or not accept it as true. Plus they can accept that proposition as true and also accept that "2 plus 2 equals one" is a true proposition.

No, it says we usually THINK OF THEM as beliefs because they are the beliefs people state or act on. I.E: "This person says they believe X / this person acts as if X is true, therefore I assume they accept X a s true."

I do not understand why you are parsing this. They are the usual forms of beliefs. While the article does not explicitly state this, I do not find it disagreeing with what I am purporting. If you think it is a huge disagreement, I ask you to explain it further. It is clearly stating, explicitly, that they are the beliefs people state or act on. They are beliefs. It is not anywhere saying binary beliefs are not really beliefs.

Find one that directly contradicts "a proposition which is held to be true".

Not sure what your standard would be for directly contradicting. The merriam-webster dictionary provides a definition of: a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable. This is one of 3 of the simple definitions provided from this source, all of them starting with "a feeling." I don't think it directly contradicts it, but do think if only one source was being cited and someone came along with post saying, "I always thought of a belief as a feeling type thing, ya know like a feeling that something is good, right or valuable," then I could see others in the thread being like, "No! It has nothing to do with that. A feeling is completely different from a proposition which is the result of mental processes. Your definition contradicts the dictionary's definition."

The metaphor isn't an attempt to DEFINE beliefs, it is an attempt to illustrate how we ARRIVE at beliefs. If my definition of beliefs is limited, find one that contradicts it.

Why?

I'm sticking to the topic of beliefs being chosen or not. You can prattle on about how you believe beliefs are arrived at. That works for you. Cool. The dictionary definition(s) deal with acceptance/holding things to be true, right, good, valuable and all that strikes me in my understanding and experience as things that are chosen. In some instances, I do acknowledge that beliefs may not be chosen. I call those rare circumstances.

 

[Acim]

I'm really starting to wonder whether you're making any real effort to understand what I'm explaining at this point. Do you or do you not understand how "I choose to play to win" doesn't mean "I choose to win"?

In the case where winning by the standard interpretation of winning is the result, I do not understand how the meaning could be distinguished. In the case where I choose to play to win results in a losing outcome, I would say that chosen belief was mistaken.

In the words you are using, I understand the difference in what is present in one statement and not in the other.

What I think you are asking me to understand is - choosing to play to win might result in an outcome other than winning, therefore you cannot reasonably make that choice.

What I don't feel like you will budge on, thus far in this thread/dialogue, is that it is still reasonable to see it as a choice, even if losing is the result. Primarily because 'winning' is not the only reasonable outcome.

So, if stuck on the notion that beliefs are outcomes, and only outcomes of thought processes and therefore cannot be chosen, it (hopefully) reconstructs the narrative. I would say beliefs, are (part of) the thought process, which may be 'outcomes' but are also predicating particular thought processes, such as those relating to what is experience, what is perspective.

Can you choose to like eating tree bark? Or cat urine? Or nothing?

Yes.