we have no free will - prove me wrong!

[Fool]

And I agree. But why is that inconsistent with free will? It seems to me that 'free will' means *I* am free to make decisions among the possibilities. And, in each case, the past events that determine the choice are all inside of my brain and hence are 'me'.

its basically the schrodinger thought experiment. all choices, potentials are possible but only when a choice is made is there realization, actualization.


nothing ventured, nothing lost/gained.

 

[QuestioningMind]

But why did you make that particular choice?


But why didn't that whim kick in and override your choice to turn right? There must have been a reason. Right? Or was going to the right a purely random event, one over which you had no control?



So that's the cause that made you decline. You could not have done any differently.

.

There could be innumerable reason why I made that particular choice. Or I could have used my free will to choose to allow the decision to be made by the flip of a coin. Even if I do allow a random flip of a coin to determine my direction, I have STILL employed my free will in deciding to abide by the coin flip. Just because there may be factors involved as to why a person makes a specific decision, the existence of those factors don't mean that a choice isn't freely being made.

Again, if I had no free will in turning right that suggests that it would have been impossible for me to have turned left and that simply isn't the case.

 

[Fool]

So why would you choose A rather than B?

because you can, but you don't have to. if you don't, it's only a potential, if you do it's an actual, real.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So why would you choose A rather than B?

It all depends on many factors.

1. The merits of A and B
2. Unconscious or conscious psychological reasons
3. My mood
4. Whether one is tempting me morally and my will to resist
5. A bit of randomness
6. My "wisdom of the moment" in weighing the options

Some of these things speak of the freeness of my will (such as 4), and others do not (such as 2), and still others are more or less free choices but don't necessarily involve will (such as 1).

I remember once when I was in my early 20's I was weighing my possible responses to a problem, and made my decision. Then, just as I was about to act, a conversation about free will flitted through my brain, and I wondered if I were freely choosing to act. I deliberately chose what I thought to be a rotten choice just to show to myself that I did indeed have free will. Once was enough.

 

[Polymath257]

I turned right because I freely chose to turn right. I am out taking a random drive to discover where certain roads go, so choosing to go left or right IS absolutely a random event. To claim that I did not exercise my free will when I chose to turn right suggests that it would have been impossible for me to randomly choose to turn left. That is not the case. I could just as easily have decided on a whim to turn left.

Really? Are you sure? Maybe your desire to turn right was already determined.

 

[Skwim]

You make a choice based on all the factors (circumstance, learning, preferences, etc.) that you are constructed of in that moment.

Right. And those are what made you choose A over B. For B to be chosen the factors would have had to been different, but they weren't, so you had to choose A. Your will was not free to choose B because of the controlling factors that favored A.

.

 

[Polymath257]

So if you took the right roadway the question is "why?" Unless taking the right roadway was an absolutely random event there must have been a reason that caused you to go right. To do otherwise the reason (the cause) would have to be different, but it wasn't which is why you went right. There was no choosing. You were made to go right by the causal reasons that led up to the turning event.

.

Well, this depends on what you mean by the word 'choosing'. If that 'choosing' is a process in your brain, then there *is* choosing. But it still might be determined by previous events.

 

[Skwim]

There could be innumerable reason why I made that particular choice. Or I could have used my free will to choose to allow the decision to be made by the flip of a coin.

So why didn't you use a flip of a coin? Because the other factors overrode such an option and caused you do whatever you did.

Again, if I had no free will in turning right that suggests that it would have been impossible for me to have turned left

Yup.

and that simply isn't the case.

Which brings us right back too the issue at question: why not?

.

 

[Polymath257]

because you can, but you don't have to. if you don't, it's only a potential, if you do it's an actual, real.

So there was some type of coin flip, completely independent of everything before, that caused you to turn left or right?

So, it wasn't your previous desire to turn right? it wasn't the slight bit of discomfort in your left arm? It wasn't a feeling that maybe turning right might be fun?

There was *nothing* prior to your turning that determined your choice? Not even anything internal to you?

Hmm...that's scary.

 

[Polymath257]

It all depends on many factors.

1. The merits of A and B
2. Unconscious or conscious psychological reasons
3. My mood
4. Whether one is tempting me morally and my will to resist
5. A bit of randomness
6. My "wisdom of the moment" in weighing the options

Some of these things speak of the freeness of my will (such as 4), and others do not (such as 2), and still others are more or less free choices but don't necessarily involve will (such as 1).

I remember once when I was in my early 20's I was weighing my possible responses to a problem, and made my decision. Then, just as I was about to act, a conversation about free will flitted through my brain, and I wondered if I were freely choosing to act. I deliberately chose what I thought to be a rotten choice just to show to myself that I did indeed have free will. Once was enough.

Hmm...it seems to me *these* are the reasons you chose one way or the other. They are what determines your choice. In the sense of 'free will' that is independent of 8anything* prior to the choice, these show you don't have such free will.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Been doing some thinking...

“Everything we do and everything that happens has a cause” is true

Therefore we can say that all things that happen are determined/caused by things that have happened in the past

Therefore there is no free will as it is impossible to carry out any action that does not have a cause – all actions have and must have a cause

Free will would require being able to act without a cause, which I think would be impossible. No matter how complex the human mind is, its workings are still governed by cause and effect, by things both external and internal to it

Free will is therefore an illusion, as things that come about by “free will” are truly caused by the past

I still believe we have wills, just not free wills!

I like the idea of having free will so please, prove me wrong

When a person gets up in the morning, That person has the free will, to either stay inside their house or go outside.

A person who can drive has the free will to drive or walk.
A person has the free will to choose for themselves on what time they want to go to bed.
A person has the free will, to choose when they want to take their next shower.

A person has the free will when they want to get out of bed.

Whatever a person does, they have their free will to do so.

As no action can be done, without first making the free will of choice to do so.

The cause will only come after a person makes the choice first, by their free will.

When a person makes their choice it is by their free will to make that choice and then the action comes.
No action or cause can happen until a person makes that choice by their free will to do it.

 

[Willamena]

Right. And those are what made you choose A over B. For B to be chosen the factors would have had to been different, but they weren't, so you had to choose A. Your will was not free to choose B because of the controlling factors that favored A.

.

No, those are you choosing A or B. For the factors to be different, you would have to be different (different circumstance, different learning, different preferences, etc.), which of course defies reality, as well as belief. There is no "could have been different" that makes will free. Will is free in the choosing.

 

[Shad]

I like the idea of having free will so please, prove me wrong

Identify the causes of you creating this thread.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Really? Are you sure? Maybe your desire to turn right was already determined.

And MAYBE I'm a talking frog who wears dentures... but I have absolutely no evidence to suggest that I am. There's also absolutely no evidence that someone or something predetermined that I would have to right and could not turn left.

Who or what are you suggesting determined that I would have no choice in the matter?

 

[Fool]

So there was some type of coin flip, completely independent of everything before, that caused you to turn left or right?

So, it wasn't your previous desire to turn right? it wasn't the slight bit of discomfort in your left arm? It wasn't a feeling that maybe turning right might be fun?

There was *nothing* prior to your turning that determined your choice? Not even anything internal to you?

Hmm...that's scary.

now you understand what it feels like for a new born not to know, or not to have prior experience, and still make a choice. as alan watts said there are infinite possibilities but you got to choose; otherwise there is no reality. you must make a choice to have experience. in having experience you have knowledge, in having knowledge you can make a more informed choice. as the form becomes more informed it becomes more knowing. faith/belief is necessary for reality to be known


And you would, naturally, as you began on this adventure of dreams, you would fulfill all your wishes(choices). You would have every kind of pleasure you could conceive. And after several nights of 75 years of total pleasure each you would say “Well that was pretty great”. But now let’s have a surprise, let’s have a dream which isn’t under control, where something is gonna happen to me that I don’t know what it's gonna be.

And you would dig that and would come out of that and you would say “Wow that was a close shave, wasn’t it?”. Then you would get more and more adventurous and you would make further- and further-out gambles what you would dream. And finally, you would dream where you are now. You would dream the dream of living the life that you are actually living today.

 

[Skwim]

It all depends on many factors.

1. The merits of A and B
2. Unconscious or conscious psychological reasons
3. My mood
4. Whether one is tempting me morally and my will to resist
5. A bit of randomness
6. My "wisdom of the moment" in weighing the options

Some of these things speak of the freeness of my will (such as 4), and others do not (such as 2), and still others are more or less free choices but don't necessarily involve will (such as 1).

And how factors 4 and 2 turn out are likewise dependent on their causes. They can't turn out to be other than how they're caused to.

.

.

 

[QuestioningMind]

So why didn't you use a flip of a coin? Because the other factors overrode such an option and caused you do whatever you did.



Yup.

Which brings us right back too the issue at question: why not?

.

So maybe I DID use my free will to choose to let a flip of the coin make the determination. Even if I didn't choose to flip a coin, the factors themselves did not determine my choice... it was my choice to use those factors in order to make my decision.

Please do enlighten me as to what would have made it impossible for me to turn left?

Why did I not turn left? Because I exercised my free will and chose to turn right. I could just as easily have exercised my free will and chosen to turned left. There are no factors involved that would make it impossible for me to have chosen otherwise.

 

[Skwim]

Well, this depends on what you mean by the word 'choosing'. If that 'choosing' is a process in your brain, then there *is* choosing. But it still might be determined by previous events.

I agree with you that choosing is a function of the brain, a process that has to be determined by preceding causal events. Unless, that is, one wants to contend their so-call choices are entirely random events. Choosing is an illusion that gives one the impression (the illusion) that having chosen A they could have done differently and chosen B. They could not have.

.

 

[InChrist]

Been doing some thinking...

“Everything we do and everything that happens has a cause” is true

Therefore we can say that all things that happen are determined/caused by things that have happened in the past

Therefore there is no free will as it is impossible to carry out any action that does not have a cause – all actions have and must have a cause

Free will would require being able to act without a cause, which I think would be impossible. No matter how complex the human mind is, its workings are still governed by cause and effect, by things both external and internal to it

Free will is therefore an illusion, as things that come about by “free will” are truly caused by the past

I still believe we have wills, just not free wills!

I like the idea of having free will so please, prove me wrong

I believe free will is reality...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hmm...it seems to me *these* are the reasons you chose one way or the other. They are what determines your choice. In the sense of 'free will' that is independent of 8anything* prior to the choice, these show you don't have such free will.

As I said before, #4, resisting temptation by act of will, is not a reason.