We Know Almost Nothing About God

[David T]

There are some who have reached complete experience of God and spoken of it. Their words illustrate how hard it is to speak about God.

Rumi: Cross and Christians, end to end, I examined. He was not on the Cross. I went to the Hindu temple, to the ancient pagoda. In none of them was there any sign. To the uplands of Herat I went, and to Kandahar I looked. He was not on the heights or in the lowlands. Resolutely, I went to the summit of the [fabulous] mountain of kaf. There only was the dwelling of the [legendary] Anqa bird. I went to the Kaaba of Mecca. He was not there. I asked about him from Avicenna, the philosopher. He was beyond the range of Avicenna... I looked into my heart. In that place, his place, I saw him. He was in no other place.

Kabir: Kabir says: Student, tell me, what is God? He is the breath inside the breath.

Rumi is a remarkable artist.

 

[David T]

Saying God loves you is not half as silly as saying God doesn't exist!!

Yes but religion often conspires to make that term God nonsense.. I would say God exists independent and inspite of our brains, while religion tends to want God to exist because of our brains. Atheism does not understand the former and embraces the later..

 

[Ellen Brown]

Yeah, I know that feeling. What I'm still trying to figure out is the path from asking to knowing.
"whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."
That seems harder in practice than you would think.

Generally speaking, I try not to ask for frivolous things, like an Audi r8, or the body of a 17 year old. There are just lots of human relations things that stump me. Sometimes I know what I should do but don't want to. Many of the hurts that I suffer with are for teaching and sometimes I'm impatient. Yeah.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I think people have to high of expectations of our biblical heroes that they tend to forget that they were just human after all. Yes, Abraham was a friend of God, but he still was human so he made bad choices occasionally. Like lying to the Pharaoh about his wife and sleeping with his wife's hand maiden.
So there's are occasionally times where we will fail God, but that is the way God made us. We are often failures, but in God's eye's we are his precious creations.

First of all, Abraham did Not lie because Sarah was his half sister.
Plus, if Abraham said 'wife' to them they could have easily killed Abraham to take Sarah as a wife for themselves.
In order that No woman would be without a husband concubines were legal, so Hagar was Not in a immoral relationship.

We are often failures because of Adam. We do Not share in his guilt, but we can Not stop sinning.
Because we inherited adamic sin from Adam that is why we can't stop sinning.
Because we can Not resurrect oneself or another is why we need someone who can resurrect us.
Sinless Jesus can and will resurrect people - Revelation 1:18.

 

[Regiomontanus]

The available texts say that God's ways are not our ways.

Isaiah 41:8 says that God called Abraham a friend. He believed God, and obeyed him. Yet, Abraham was chicken in front of Pharaoh's troops, saying that Sarah was his sister.

For private reasons, it has been difficult for me to believe that God loves me, though it is impossible to ignore God's mercy and provisions for us. Yet, people running around saying that God loves them, at times seems silly, even stupid. How would they know?

I know that God can take my soul and cast it into hell, but I trust him, and when I stand before him, despite my many grievous mistakes and sins, I will say that I tried to please him as hard as I could.

Sometimes I search for the pre-religous experiences of our ancestors. It is disappointing to find that so many of them worshiped more than one God. Despite the idea that those who worshiped Ahura Mazda as one God, the idea did not seem to be cemented until Moses was given the ten commandments. Why the tendency to worship more than one God?

Often, I ask God to teach me and speak to me in my dreams, and sometimes "things" happen. I'm not always sure that God was talking to me, though the desire remains.

Hello. This should not surprise us! How can we expect our finite minds to comprehend the infinite? We must always live with some mystery (to think not = sin of pride).

Peace.

 

[allfoak]

The available texts say that God's ways are not our ways.
The first step to knowing God is knowing one's self.
Isaiah 41:8 says that God called Abraham a friend. He believed God, and obeyed him. Yet, Abraham was chicken in front of Pharaoh's troops, saying that Sarah was his sister.

For private reasons, it has been difficult for me to believe that God loves me, though it is impossible to ignore God's mercy and provisions for us. Yet, people running around saying that God loves them, at times seems silly, even stupid. How would they know?

I know that God can take my soul and cast it into hell, but I trust him, and when I stand before him, despite my many grievous mistakes and sins, I will say that I tried to please him as hard as I could.

Sometimes I search for the pre-religous experiences of our ancestors. It is disappointing to find that so many of them worshiped more than one God. Despite the idea that those who worshiped Ahura Mazda as one God, the idea did not seem to be cemented until Moses was given the ten commandments. Why the tendency to worship more than one God?

Often, I ask God to teach me and speak to me in my dreams, and sometimes "things" happen. I'm not always sure that God was talking to me, though the desire remains.

 

[Windwalker]

Maybe. I'm not so sure. Meditation often seems like a form of self-hypnosis to me.

It's not the same. Here is a paper as part of a presentation on that topic you may find informative. It goes into a lot of technical, but interesting details of the research he did with this. http://hc.rediris.es/pub/bscw.cgi/d4512707/Tart-Meditation_Some_kind_self_hypnosis.pdf

Hypnosis can make it seem like the mountain is moved to the individual, but it actually isn't moved. Knowing (faith) can actually move the mountain. Baby steps I guess.

Unlike either of those, meditation simple removes the mountain altogether. There is no mountain. The mountain was an illusion that was never actually there.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

First of all, Abraham did Not lie because Sarah was his half sister.
Plus, if Abraham said 'wife' to them they could have easily killed Abraham to take Sarah as a wife for themselves.
In order that No woman would be without a husband concubines were legal, so Hagar was Not in a immoral relationship.

We are often failures because of Adam. We do Not share in his guilt, but we can Not stop sinning.
Because we inherited adamic sin from Adam that is why we can't stop sinning.
Because we can Not resurrect oneself or another is why we need someone who can resurrect us.
Sinless Jesus can and will resurrect people - Revelation 1:18.

Hurray for Incest and Treating like women like property in the bible. I'm so glad we use that a tool to guide our moral compass.

Original sin doesn't exist. We didn't inherit anything from Adam because he doesn't exist. The story of Adam and Eve is just a parable explaining how we have the innate desire in us to sin.

 

[12jtartar]

The available texts say that God's ways are not our ways.

Isaiah 41:8 says that God called Abraham a friend. He believed God, and obeyed him. Yet, Abraham was chicken in front of Pharaoh's troops, saying that Sarah was his sister.

For private reasons, it has been difficult for me to believe that God loves me, though it is impossible to ignore God's mercy and provisions for us. Yet, people running around saying that God loves them, at times seems silly, even stupid. How would they know?

I know that God can take my soul and cast it into hell, but I trust him, and when I stand before him, despite my many grievous mistakes and sins, I will say that I tried to please him as hard as I could.

Sometimes I search for the pre-religous experiences of our ancestors. It is disappointing to find that so many of them worshiped more than one God. Despite the idea that those who worshiped Ahura Mazda as one God, the idea did not seem to be cemented until Moses was given the ten commandments. Why the tendency to worship more than one God?

Often, I ask God to teach me and speak to me in my dreams, and sometimes "things" happen. I'm not always sure that God was talking to me, though the desire remains.

Ellen Brown,
Allow me Please, to remind you of things you already know, but seem to, just take for granted, and not appreciate.
God created Adam and Eve, and put them in a Beautiful Garden home, which had everything they needed, or even could want. God gave them one way to show to Him that they wanted to listen to Him and obey Him, just do-not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
We know that they disobeyed this one simple rule. This would have caused all their descendants to live out their lives, die, and have no more existence, anywhere, Genesis 2:17, 3:17-19. God had written that the Heavens belong to Him, but He has given the earth to men, Psalms 115:16, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 37:29. God had wanted Adam and Eve to live forever, and complete the purpose of His, for earth, Genesis 1:26-28.
God did not want all mankind to be lost forever, so He sent His beloved son to earth to give his life for all mankind who would accept this gift, by putting faith in Jesus and trying, as best as imperfect people can, to follow Jesus’ footsteps, Acts 4:10-12.
Ellen, would you give the life of your child for others, who seem to not even appreciate what was done. To many people, John 3:16 is the Gospels in Miniature; God loved the world so much that He gave His beloved son, so that all those believing in him could have everlasting life. This life that God is offering, through His son, is not just existence, but endless life in a perfect earth, a Paradise earth, where God will give to all who love Him, more than we could ever dream of, Psalms 145:16, 1Corinthians 2:9.
How can you ask does God love mankind? A God who would allow the person He loves more than all His creation, die for people who, the far majority of which seem to had rather follow Satan.
Look also at the unbelievable creation that we can enjoy, beautiful sunsets, friends to love, who love us. Then there are millions of interesting things to interest us, music, or things of science, which we will never fill our curiosity. We will learn more about our God and the love He showed, and His son who was willing to give his life for us and his Father, both of which want the very best for all people that love them, as they love us!!! Remember, God’s Personal,Proper Name is Jehovah. To get to know Him better pray to Him and call upon His name as you would a friend! Agape!!!

 

[Trailblazer]

The available texts say that God's ways are not our ways.
For private reasons, it has been difficult for me to believe that God loves me, though it is impossible to ignore God's mercy and provisions for us. Yet, people running around saying that God loves them, at times seems silly, even stupid. How would they know?

I know that God can take my soul and cast it into hell, but I trust him, and when I stand before him, despite my many grievous mistakes and sins, I will say that I tried to please him as hard as I could.

I have no idea why I came back to the computer because it is 2 am and I just finished eating dinner.... and I do not know why, of all the posts and threads I opened it up to the one post I needed to read.... was it God? I just hate to give God any credit at all... I do not know what that is about, all I know is that I hold God responsible for creating this world which is storehouse of suffering, at least for some of us, and I cannot understand why a loving God would do that.... Is this some kind of sick game? It just isn't logical that a loving God would allow innocent people and animals to suffer and die. And I do not care about the afterlife, how it will be all better then; maybe it will but that won't make up for this life.

I just got finished with my rant against God and my husband gets tired of listening to me... I do not believe God loves me, I think God hates me and is trying to torture me... I do not see any of God's mercy or provisions, I just don't, yet my religion teaches that God loves us and is merciful so I am in complete conflict.

It also seems very silly for me to hear people saying God loves them, I think it is wishful thinking at best... i think some people believe that God speaks to them and they feel God's love but I think it is their imagination, what they want to believe.

All I can say is that I do not feel so alone now that I read your post, so thanks so much for that.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Ellen Brown,
Allow me Please, to remind you of things you already know, but seem to, just take for granted, and not appreciate.
God created Adam and Eve, and put them in a Beautiful Garden home, which had everything they needed, or even could want. God gave them one way to show to Him that they wanted to listen to Him and obey Him, just do-not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
We know that they disobeyed this one simple rule. This would have caused all their descendants to live out their lives, die, and have no more existence, anywhere, Genesis 2:17, 3:17-19. God had written that the Heavens belong to Him, but He has given the earth to men, Psalms 115:16, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 37:29. God had wanted Adam and Eve to live forever, and complete the purpose of His, for earth, Genesis 1:26-28.
God did not want all mankind to be lost forever, so He sent His beloved son to earth to give his life for all mankind who would accept this gift, by putting faith in Jesus and trying, as best as imperfect people can, to follow Jesus’ footsteps, Acts 4:10-12.
Ellen, would you give the life of your child for others, who seem to not even appreciate what was done. To many people, John 3:16 is the Gospels in Miniature; God loved the world so much that He gave His beloved son, so that all those believing in him could have everlasting life. This life that God is offering, through His son, is not just existence, but endless life in a perfect earth, a Paradise earth, where God will give to all who love Him, more than we could ever dream of, Psalms 145:16, 1Corinthians 2:9.
How can you ask does God love mankind? A God who would allow the person He loves more than all His creation, die for people who, the far majority of which seem to had rather follow Satan.
Look also at the unbelievable creation that we can enjoy, beautiful sunsets, friends to love, who love us. Then there are millions of interesting things to interest us, music, or things of science, which we will never fill our curiosity. We will learn more about our God and the love He showed, and His son who was willing to give his life for us and his Father, both of which want the very best for all people that love them, as they love us!!! Remember, God’s Personal,Proper Name is Jehovah. To get to know Him better pray to Him and call upon His name as you would a friend! Agape!!!

Hello. Making sense of the evil and suffering in the world is indeed hard to reconcile with traditional Christianity. It is something all thoughtful people struggle with. I know I do. One way that helped me make sense of this is what is called process theology:

http://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialscien...HAPTER_6_PROBLEM_of_EVIL/Process_Theology.htm

Good luck and God bless.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Ellen Brown,
Allow me Please, to remind you of things you already know, but seem to, just take for granted, and not appreciate.
God created Adam and Eve, and put them in a Beautiful Garden home, which had everything they needed, or even could want. God gave them one way to show to Him that they wanted to listen to Him and obey Him, just do-not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
We know that they disobeyed this one simple rule. This would have caused all their descendants to live out their lives, die, and have no more existence, anywhere, Genesis 2:17, 3:17-19. God had written that the Heavens belong to Him, but He has given the earth to men, Psalms 115:16, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 37:29. God had wanted Adam and Eve to live forever, and complete the purpose of His, for earth, Genesis 1:26-28.
God did not want all mankind to be lost forever, so He sent His beloved son to earth to give his life for all mankind who would accept this gift, by putting faith in Jesus and trying, as best as imperfect people can, to follow Jesus’ footsteps, Acts 4:10-12.
Ellen, would you give the life of your child for others, who seem to not even appreciate what was done. To many people, John 3:16 is the Gospels in Miniature; God loved the world so much that He gave His beloved son, so that all those believing in him could have everlasting life. This life that God is offering, through His son, is not just existence, but endless life in a perfect earth, a Paradise earth, where God will give to all who love Him, more than we could ever dream of, Psalms 145:16, 1Corinthians 2:9.
How can you ask does God love mankind? A God who would allow the person He loves more than all His creation, die for people who, the far majority of which seem to had rather follow Satan.
Look also at the unbelievable creation that we can enjoy, beautiful sunsets, friends to love, who love us. Then there are millions of interesting things to interest us, music, or things of science, which we will never fill our curiosity. We will learn more about our God and the love He showed, and His son who was willing to give his life for us and his Father, both of which want the very best for all people that love them, as they love us!!! Remember, God’s Personal,Proper Name is Jehovah. To get to know Him better pray to Him and call upon His name as you would a friend! Agape!!!

God and I are good. His followers, not so much. You conveniently ignore those who God sent to correct us. Almost all were murdered. Maybe that's all. It is common for those who purport to speak for God to assign traits to him that the Bible does not say...

 

[Ellen Brown]

Ellen Brown,
Allow me Please, to remind you of things you already know, but seem to, just take for granted, and not appreciate.
God created Adam and Eve, and put them in a Beautiful Garden home, which had everything they needed, or even could want. God gave them one way to show to Him that they wanted to listen to Him and obey Him, just do-not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
We know that they disobeyed this one simple rule. This would have caused all their descendants to live out their lives, die, and have no more existence, anywhere, Genesis 2:17, 3:17-19. God had written that the Heavens belong to Him, but He has given the earth to men, Psalms 115:16, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 37:29. God had wanted Adam and Eve to live forever, and complete the purpose of His, for earth, Genesis 1:26-28.
God did not want all mankind to be lost forever, so He sent His beloved son to earth to give his life for all mankind who would accept this gift, by putting faith in Jesus and trying, as best as imperfect people can, to follow Jesus’ footsteps, Acts 4:10-12.
Ellen, would you give the life of your child for others, who seem to not even appreciate what was done. To many people, John 3:16 is the Gospels in Miniature; God loved the world so much that He gave His beloved son, so that all those believing in him could have everlasting life. This life that God is offering, through His son, is not just existence, but endless life in a perfect earth, a Paradise earth, where God will give to all who love Him, more than we could ever dream of, Psalms 145:16, 1Corinthians 2:9.
How can you ask does God love mankind? A God who would allow the person He loves more than all His creation, die for people who, the far majority of which seem to had rather follow Satan.
Look also at the unbelievable creation that we can enjoy, beautiful sunsets, friends to love, who love us. Then there are millions of interesting things to interest us, music, or things of science, which we will never fill our curiosity. We will learn more about our God and the love He showed, and His son who was willing to give his life for us and his Father, both of which want the very best for all people that love them, as they love us!!! Remember, God’s Personal,Proper Name is Jehovah. To get to know Him better pray to Him and call upon His name as you would a friend! Agape!!!

I was a bit put off when I first read your response, and now that I read it a second time, I'm convinced that you are pretty clueless. You missed the whole point of what I was saying. Perhaps a little less judgement of others whose path you have no knowledge of?

 

[Quintessence]

Sometimes I search for the pre-religous experiences of our ancestors. It is disappointing to find that so many of them worshiped more than one God.

May I ask why you find this disappointing?

Despite the idea that those who worshiped Ahura Mazda as one God, the idea did not seem to be cemented until Moses was given the ten commandments. Why the tendency to worship more than one God?

I could answer that question, but I don't think it relates enough to your OP to be worth recounting here. I don't get the sense this is what you're really curious about. This thread seems to be about relationships with gods, and in particular how knowledge about a god impacts that relationship.

Relationships with anything - whether we're talking a god or something else - very much hinge on knowledge because that knowledge guides how we behave with or think about that other person. I could definitely see a challenge happening trying to have a relationship with a god that you don't feel like you know anything about. You wouldn't know how to act, how to think, or maybe even how to feel. So how do you get to know your god to create some expectations and ground rules for yourself and that relationship? Like any relationship, it's a process that takes quite a bit of time and energy, so expecting instant results should be out of our minds entirely.

It seems to me there's two basic approaches: do it yourself, and have someone else do it for you. "Have someone else do it for you" would be things like reading sacred texts, listening to prophets, or consulting with the clergy of your religion to learn more about your god. Second hand stuff, basically. "Do it yourself" would be things like engaging in mystical practices or utilizing your own personal experiences. I think must of us do both of these, but some religions encourage (or discourage) one of these over the other. Ultimately you find what works well for you within the context of your culture and community. Hopefully, over time, you get a good relationship going with your god or gods. But it is a journey. It takes time. And you'll probably never be sure. When it comes to relationships, there are rarely any certainties. Certainty might not be the point, though. Trust is probably the point - trust in yourself, and trust in another. There's another word religious types sometimes use for that - faith.

Dunno if any of that is useful for your situation, but this is what came out today. If I'm totally off the mark, my brain is just squirrely like that sometimes.

 

[Segev Moran]

The available texts say that God's ways are not our ways.

I think it says our minds cannot grasp the reasons why things are as they are... not having to do with god's ways.
I think the trick is knowing what god ways (not reasons!!!) are...
This is a different question ,but i think that the overall consensus is that god's way is nothing but good. every person can do his best to act like that

Isaiah 41:8 says that God called Abraham a friend. He believed God, and obeyed him. Yet, Abraham was chicken in front of Pharaoh's troops, saying that Sarah was his sister.

Do you know why? Chickening has got nothing to do with it.

For private reasons, it has been difficult for me to believe that God loves me, though it is impossible to ignore God's mercy and provisions for us. Yet, people running around saying that God loves them, at times seems silly, even stupid. How would they know?

They don't really.
The more important question is if you love your self.
There are many ways love can be explained.
So in the end, it depends on what you mean when you say "love"?
And i really hope your personal reasons will come to a solve soon.

But try and look at it like this... Many times people refer to god as a father (or mother)... it is a way to describe how one knows god loves them.
How do you know your mother (or father) loves you? i guess it works the same way with god.

I know that God can take my soul and cast it into hell

How do you know that?
And what do you mean by "hell"?

but I trust him, and when I stand before him, despite my many grievous mistakes and sins, I will say that I tried to please him as hard as I could.

Why would you think that god wants you to please Him?

Sometimes I search for the pre-religous experiences of our ancestors. It is disappointing to find that so many of them worshiped more than one God.

Why is it disappointing?
I find it very logical.

Despite the idea that those who worshiped Ahura Mazda as one God, the idea did not seem to be cemented until Moses was given the ten commandments.

Abraham actually.
Moses (made it more... "Viral" ))

Why the tendency to worship more than one God?

It makes sense when you think of it.
Imagine the difference between each force the ancient people have encountered.
Fire...
Wind...
Storms...
Lightnings..

How could they imagine there is one force that connects it all together? let alone that there is only one force that governs all the other forces?
Modern science only discovered it in the past 100 years.

Often, I ask God to teach me and speak to me in my dreams, and sometimes "things" happen. I'm not always sure that God was talking to me, though the desire remains.

Wouldn't you say it is up to you to learn about god rather than god teaching you about it?
Once I started to really learn about god, it became clear to me that god is very "cooperative" and you can easily find the way to learn more about it. (and in no way does it include what it, is)

Can you give an example of a "thing"?

I can tell you how it went for me...
I had many "things" (I mean all kind of small things that seem more than luck or a chance) in my life.
Most of them i disregarded and dismissed as nothing more than a statistical standard at worst, or a statistical anomaly at best.
It was only when i had my recent "thing", when suddenly many other "things" all came together to the biggest lesson i've had so far.
from then, my entire grasp of reality changed and corny as it may sound, i wasn't blind anymore.
I am not a religious person (yet?), but i can say for a certainty, without a doubt, that the bible (Hebrew), in its few first verses, presents a far deeper understanding of reality than we had until a few dozens of years ago. as i keep finding out every day, this trend keeps going even today when only recent scientific discoveries point to things that were already known hundreds of years in the past.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[The Anointed]

We will not completely know God, until we know all that is to be known about this eternal and boundless cosmos in which he has made himself manifest.

 

[viole]

Generally speaking, I try not to ask for frivolous things, like an Audi r8

You call an R8 frivolous?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Ellen Brown,
Allow me Please, to remind you of things you already know, but seem to, just take for granted, and not appreciate.
God created Adam and Eve, and put them in a Beautiful Garden home, which had everything they needed, or even could want. God gave them one way to show to Him that they wanted to listen to Him and obey Him, just do-not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
We know that they disobeyed this one simple rule. This would have caused all their descendants to live out their lives, die, and have no more existence, anywhere, Genesis 2:17, 3:17-19. God had written that the Heavens belong to Him, but He has given the earth to men, Psalms 115:16, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 37:29. God had wanted Adam and Eve to live forever, and complete the purpose of His, for earth, Genesis 1:26-28.
God did not want all mankind to be lost forever, so He sent His beloved son to earth to give his life for all mankind who would accept this gift, by putting faith in Jesus and trying, as best as imperfect people can, to follow Jesus’ footsteps, Acts 4:10-12.
Ellen, would you give the life of your child for others, who seem to not even appreciate what was done. To many people, John 3:16 is the Gospels in Miniature; God loved the world so much that He gave His beloved son, so that all those believing in him could have everlasting life. This life that God is offering, through His son, is not just existence, but endless life in a perfect earth, a Paradise earth, where God will give to all who love Him, more than we could ever dream of, Psalms 145:16, 1Corinthians 2:9.
How can you ask does God love mankind? A God who would allow the person He loves more than all His creation, die for people who, the far majority of which seem to had rather follow Satan.
Look also at the unbelievable creation that we can enjoy, beautiful sunsets, friends to love, who love us. Then there are millions of interesting things to interest us, music, or things of science, which we will never fill our curiosity. We will learn more about our God and the love He showed, and His son who was willing to give his life for us and his Father, both of which want the very best for all people that love them, as they love us!!! Remember, God’s Personal,Proper Name is Jehovah. To get to know Him better pray to Him and call upon His name as you would a friend! Agape!!!

If you want to convince someone, please say how things were, factually. At least, according to the myth.

His beloved Son did not give His life for our sins. He gave three days (and two nights) of His life for our sins.

Ciao

- viole

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hello. Making sense of the evil and suffering in the world is indeed hard to reconcile with traditional Christianity. It is something all thoughtful people struggle with. I know I do. ............

I find when Adam broke God's law by doing that Adam took the law out of God's hands and placed the law into man's hands.
So, it was Adam who set up People Rule as being superior to God Rule.
Human history has proven beyond doubt that man rule or people rule can Not stop evil and suffering in the world.
Human history shows as King Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 8:9 that man (Not God) but man has dominated man to man's hurt or man's injury. If everyone lived by God's Golden Rule would we see the evil and suffering as we now do.
So, to me the struggle is Not to reconcile with man's teachings, but to reconcile to the teachings of Christ Jesus.
Teachings of Christ Jesus as in his New commandment of John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has for us.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

His beloved Son did not give His life for our sins................
- viole

I find Jesus did give his life for us because as 1 John 1:7 B says the ' blood ' (shed blood) of Christ is what cleanses us from all sin. The day Jesus died he shed his blood.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die, because we can Not stop sinning is why we die.
We can Not resurrect oneself or anyone else, that is why we need someone who can resurrect us.
God resurrected faithful Jesus and thus Jesus has the resurrection power - Revelation 1:18.