We were all born atheists,

[Halcyon]

Before we continue, there are two things i must be clear on:

1)diety: you've implied that "worshipping" is perhaps the qualifying factor of a god. To be fair, your reference to animism (which i'm only now aquainting myself with) is what i might actually suppose as your base of conceptual divinity. Would i be correct?

2) (pending your reply)

We'd need to start up a thread in the debate section, if you want to continue.

 

[mr.guy]

Screw it. I start the worst threads in the world, i swear they're cursed.

 

[shytot]

HALCYON said, You can't be atheist if you have no concept of divinity to reject.
that is just taking things too far, Religions, any religion is an 'IDEA', not a fact,
it comes from the mind of a 'MAN' (or WOMAN) it is put forward as a way of making sense
of our existence, that is why there are so many 'RELIGIONS', if you look at the front end
of this forum, you will see there are so many religions in the world, it is a wonder any one
of them is taken seriously at all, (Religion is like Pornography, just a matter of Geography)
to say 'Atheism' needs a religion to be against is just ridiculous.
Some people believe the earth is only 6000 years old, because that is what the bible
tells them, when they see things like, Fossils, or seashells on the top of 20,000 ft mountains,
or blond Scandinavians, or black people, or Chinese, what do they tell themselves?
I would like to know.

 

[Halcyon]

HALCYON said, You can't be atheist if you have no concept of divinity to reject.
that is just taking things too far, Religions, any religion is an 'IDEA', not a fact,
it comes from the mind of a 'MAN' (or WOMAN) it is put forward as a way of making sense
of our existence, that is why there are so many 'RELIGIONS', if you look at the front end
of this forum, you will see there are so many religions in the world, it is a wonder any one
of them is taken seriously at all, (Religion is like Pornography, just a matter of Geography)
to say 'Atheism' needs a religion to be against is just ridiculous.
Some people believe the earth is only 6000 years old, because that is what the bible
tells them, when they see things like, Fossils, or seashells on the top of 20,000 ft mountains,
or blond Scandinavians, or black people, or Chinese, what do they tell themselves?
I would like to know.

I guess you just don't understand what i'm trying to say.

Look, an atheist is someone who rejects the concept of God, or who doesn't believe in deity.
Someone, like a new born infant, has never even contemplated a concept like God. They are not atheist because they do not reject God. They have no opinion on deity because they don't know what it is. How can you disbelieve in something if you've never contemplated it?

Imagine a tribe on a remote island who have never heard of Antarctica. Would you say they disbelieve in Antarctica?

You're saying babies are atheist because they don't believe in God. I say, their minds are in a state untouched by theism or atheism - they're totally oblivious to either concept.

 

[nutshell]

I guess you just don't understand what i'm trying to say.

Look, an atheist is someone who rejects the concept of God, or who doesn't believe in deity.
Someone, like a new born infant, has never even contemplated a concept like God. They are not atheist because they do not reject God. They have no opinion on deity because they don't know what it is. How can you disbelieve in something if you've never contemplated it?

Imagine a tribe on a remote island who have never heard of Antarctica. Would you say they disbelieve in Antarctica?

You're saying babies are atheist because they don't believe in God. I say, their minds are in a state untouched by theism or atheism - they're totally oblivious to either concept.

I agree and disagree with your post and have a question I'd like to ask:

If a person isn't a theist or an atheist, what are they? ???

 

[Atheist_Dave]

They are someone who hasnt been exposed yet and therefore cannot be either. They cannot reject or accept what they have never experienced. In my view anyway... x x x

 

[nutshell]

They are someone who hasnt been exposed yet and therefore cannot be either. They cannot reject or accept what they have never experienced. In my view anyway... x x x

I understand the argument is that they are neither, but my question asked not what they aren't, but what they are. If a person is not a theist or atheist, what are they?

 

[Atheist_Dave]

I think I answered that, nothing, neutral.

 

[nutshell]

So they're "nothing?" A blank slate? How quickly do you think they become one or the other?

 

[Atheist_Dave]

Maybe an easier way to put it is, you are not born an atheist, but ignorant. A new born baby is ignorant, and will probably be swayed towards his/hers parents beliefs if they expose the child to them. Many people never escape religion because of their parents, usually if an idea is implanted before the age of 5 or something, it will stay with you till you die. So yeah, I guess a none atheist none theist is, "Ignorantist" .

Peace x

 

[d.]

I guess you just don't understand what i'm trying to say.

Look, an atheist is someone who rejects the concept of God, or who doesn't believe in deity.
Someone, like a new born infant, has never even contemplated a concept like God. They are not atheist because they do not reject God. They have no opinion on deity because they don't know what it is. How can you disbelieve in something if you've never contemplated it?

Imagine a tribe on a remote island who have never heard of Antarctica. Would you say they disbelieve in Antarctica?

You're saying babies are atheist because they don't believe in God. I say, their minds are in a state untouched by theism or atheism - they're totally oblivious to either concept.

is it just as simple as saying that without the concept or idea of theism - or god - the definition 'atheist' is meaningless?

the answer without the question is meaningless. the question in this case is the concept of theism/higher meaning - accept or reject?

just as the concept of 'homosexuality' is relevant only in contrast to 'heterosexuality' or other 'sexualities'.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

I kinda figure we're all born agnostic. We don't know either way.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... the answer without the question is meaningless.

Well said.

 

[Atheist_Dave]

What was the point of this thread again? :s x

 

[gnostic]

Without previous theological indoctrination, non-belief in God would be comparable to non-belief in Humpty-Dumpty.

Humpty-Dumpty IS NOT REAL?

Oh, my God! Now I'm really depressed.

 

[gnostic]

You're saying babies are atheist because they don't believe in God. I say, their minds are in a state untouched by theism or atheism - they're totally oblivious to either concept.

I kinda figure we're all born agnostic. We don't know either way.

That's probably more likely correct.

 

[shytot]

We are not born believing anything, we are born with a sponge for a brain,
ready to learn anything that will be of value to help us survive, we are animals
like any other animal, a little bit smarter, but animals none the less,
we can learn to speak any language devised by man, in order to communicate,
we learn what is socially acceptable, and what is socially unacceptable, in fact
anything the person bringing us up deems fit, we learn, be it religions,
how to play the drums, we soak it all up.
So anyone who believes 'they' decided to be what they are, is deluding themselves, of coarse
there will be people who have changed their religions, but I suspect that is because
the person teaching them religion, did a bad job in the first place, the Muslims could
teach every religion how to do it, so it sticks forever.

 

[Judgement Day]

We were all born atheists? Wrong.

The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).

So, just as the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature, his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator. But, his parents try to make him follow their own way and the child is not strong enough in the early stages of his life to resist or oppose the will of his parents. If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way, but all children are affected by those things around them, seen or unseen.

 

[shytot]

The problem you seem to be having is, you are starting from the wrong place,
you are turning an IDEA into a FACT, you are saying the laws of nature were
designed by some fictitious being just because it is written in a book,
let me ask you something,
If you were born to a Muslim couple who were killed in an earthquake, but you
survived, and you were found by a Hindu couple and brought up a Hindu, you
would think something completely different, so circumstances have made you
believe one way and not the other, how can you get your brain to deny this?
pure chance has made you a Muslim, but the way you talk, you think you would
have been a Muslim where ever you had been brought up.
until the British went to Australia, the Aborigines thought they were the only
people on the planet, they lived on an island for thousands of years and had
never met anyone else. (By the way, the Aborigines had NO religion)
I don't think you would you have been a Muslim if you were brought up there.
(But then again, I suspect you have the ability to convince yourself to believe
anything you want, good luck to you, it's your life, OR IS IT.)

 

[Judgement Day]

The problem you seem to be having is, you are starting from the wrong place,
you are turning an IDEA into a FACT, you are saying the laws of nature were
designed by some fictitious being just because it is written in a book,
let me ask you something,
If you were born to a Muslim couple who were killed in an earthquake, but you
survived, and you were found by a Hindu couple and brought up a Hindu, you
would think something completely different, so circumstances have made you
believe one way and not the other, how can you get your brain to deny this?
pure chance has made you a Muslim, but the way you talk, you think you would
have been a Muslim where ever you had been brought up.
until the British went to Australia, the Aborigines thought they were the only
people on the planet, they lived on an island for thousands of years and had
never met anyone else. (By the way, the Aborigines had NO religion)
I don't think you would you have been a Muslim if you were brought up there.
(But then again, I suspect you have the ability to convince yourself to believe
anything you want, good luck to you, it's your life, OR IS IT.)

No, you dont understand what I mean. The meaning of Islam is submission to God. Everything in this world submits to the will of God, living or dead, stars, plants, humans, animals and everything else. But when we're born, people around influences us into becoming something else.
True that aborigines had no religion(formally), but by their nature, they believe in the existance of the ultimate first cause of everything called God. If society as primitive as the aborigines believe in God, people cannot be born atheists.