We will never separate the church from the state in Germany. (Impressions from the Giordano Bruno Foundation.)

[беспокойный путешественни]

"Finally some normal, open-minded people", I thought when I went to yesterday's open meeting of the local Giordano Bruno Foundation (Giordano-Bruno-Stiftung, usually shortened to gbs). The separation of church and state in law and everyday life has been a matter close to my heart for many years, and the Foundation is the largest organisation in Germany that is supposedly primarily committed to this. So I went there.

To be on the safe side, I first introduced myself as "no longer atheist, but not a Christian either", which was probably sensible. The supposed core concern of "separation of church and state" obviously takes a back seat to anti-theism in the structures of the gbs. "I am an atheist" was widespread (with two active Christians as even blacker sheep, after all), but "Religions are to blame for all the injustice in the world!" is apparently considered an authorised attitude. (Nevertheless, I had a very constructive discussion about the meaning of life with a Christian woman with a strong faith after the end of the official part. With the others, this was obviously hardly meaningful).

Depressed and disillusioned, I realise that separating the state and the churches in order to finally achieve an equal coexistence of religions is unfortunately not possible, even with the only association that is powerful and motivated enough to move in the right direction.

At least I have learnt something from it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I do not understand your post.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

The post had a less profound meaning than you are used to from me. It is - more or less - intended to vent frustration. I feel better now.

 

[Heyo]

"Finally some normal, open-minded people", I thought when I went to yesterday's open meeting of the local Giordano Bruno Foundation (Giordano-Bruno-Stiftung, usually shortened to gbs). The separation of church and state in law and everyday life has been a matter close to my heart for many years, and the Foundation is the largest organisation in Germany that is supposedly primarily committed to this. So I went there.

To be on the safe side, I first introduced myself as "no longer atheist, but not a Christian either", which was probably sensible. The supposed core concern of "separation of church and state" obviously takes a back seat to anti-theism in the structures of the gbs. "I am an atheist" was widespread (with two active Christians as even blacker sheep, after all), but "Religions are to blame for all the injustice in the world!" is apparently considered an authorised attitude. (Nevertheless, I had a very constructive discussion about the meaning of life with a Christian woman with a strong faith after the end of the official part. With the others, this was obviously hardly meaningful).

Depressed and disillusioned, I realise that separating the state and the churches in order to finally achieve an equal coexistence of religions is unfortunately not possible, even with the only association that is powerful and motivated enough to move in the right direction.

At least I have learnt something from it.

With the biggest party being a Christian party, what would you expect?
The good thing is that our Christians are pretty secular by themselves. It's basically the opposite to the US, formally not separated, but in praxis the churches are not very influential (or at least they are very prudent to use their influence).
I don't feel the need to poke that hornet's nest, yet. Let the churches die in peace.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

With the biggest party being a Christian party, what would you expect?

However, the members of this party largely agree that every religion needs equal protection (from the state?) and attention.

Let the churches die in peace.

I will do that as soon as their two biggest annoyances have been eliminated:

1. Churches - unlike me, for example - are allowed to disturb the peace by ringing bells. That's annoying. Either I'm allowed to make noise that drowns out the conversations of the entire neighbourhood at any time, or nobody is.
2. The local calendar dictates that I'm not allowed to celebrate on Good Friday (for example) or work on Easter Monday because the Christian minority doesn't want me to. I don't accept that as a good reason.

 

[Heyo]

However, the members of this party largely agree that every religion needs equal protection (from the state?) and attention.



I will do that as soon as their two biggest annoyances have been eliminated:

1. Churches - unlike me, for example - are allowed to disturb the peace by ringing bells. That's annoying. Either I'm allowed to make noise that drowns out the conversations of the entire neighbourhood at any time, or nobody is.
2. The local calendar dictates that I'm not allowed to celebrate on Good Friday (for example) or work on Easter Monday because the Christian minority doesn't want me to. I don't accept that as a good reason.

Yes, there are annoyances, and those two aren't even the biggest (for me). Exemption from workers protection is more severe, imo. But like old people who have dementia, dying empires often leap out when they see that they have to go in a desperate attempt to keep recognized. I wouldn't remind them of that fact just yet. They still have influence, don't wake them. Wait a few years, and they will have haemorrhaged so many members that they can't fight back. Religion and churches are problems that will solve themselves, at least here in Europe.

 

[HonestJoe]

"Finally some normal, open-minded people", I thought when I went to yesterday's open meeting of the local Giordano Bruno Foundation (Giordano-Bruno-Stiftung, usually shortened to gbs).

I'd never heard of them but they seem to be a Secular Humanist organisation (so as close to a religion as you can get without being one) and don't appear to have "separation of church and state" front and centre. Maybe that is because Germany largely already has such a separation (baring some historic quirks), so you'd probably need to a little more specific about your complaints and proposed solutions.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

they seem to be a Secular Humanist organisation (so as close to a religion as you can get without being one)

They are, but (unlike the Humanist Association, for example) they have not registered as a corporation under public law, precisely in order to explicitly not be a religious community. (I still don't understand why humanist groups in Germany can register as churches, so to speak. But I don't have to either).

don't appear to have "separation of church and state" front and centre.

Factual secularisation (i.e. going beyond the "historical Quirks") is an essential concern of the association; at least according to its own announcements in its flyers and at its events.

you'd probably need to a little more specific about your complaints and proposed solutions.

I wish there was a large enough organisation that supported my desire to have equal rights as a pagan without meaning to insult my religion as much as everyone else. But sometimes, wishes don't come true.

 

[Flankerl]

lol what funny reasons to be mad at the two big Churches.

No mention of the Staatsleistungen that still give them money for the immorally acquired land during the middle ages that was "taken from them" afterwards.
Nothing about their exemptions from work laws.

But you know "Church Bells loud and I want to work on that Monday".
Who the hell wants to work on a Monday.

They are, but (unlike the Humanist Association, for example) they have not registered as a corporation under public law, precisely in order to explicitly not be a religious community. (I still don't understand why humanist groups in Germany can register as churches, so to speak. But I don't have to either).

It's almost as if a "Körperschaft des öffentlichen Rechts" does not denote something being a "church" or religious institution.


"A corporation under public law (K.d.ö.R., also abbreviated to KdöR, KöR or K.ö.R.) is a legal entity under public law that is organised by membership, is a legal entity by virtue of a sovereign act and performs public tasks. Areas of responsibility are assigned to it by law or statutes."

There, nothing about religion or church.
The flipping Federal Employment Agency is a KdöR.

The Humanistischer Verband is a Weltanschauungsgemeinschaft. Not a religion or church.