Weightlifter will be first trans athlete to compete at Olympics

[Augustus]

It was later on (though that's wider spread than we pretend, with tons of chemical enhancers not even banned) but he still had extremely large, record breaking lung capacity, hyper efficient heart and low resting pulse, and other innate advantages. As do all the 'dominating' record holders.

He actually had no natural physiological advantages over other professional cyclists.

Dominating record holders tend not to have any physiological metric that separates them from their elite peers.

Such things help you to become an elite athlete, but they don't predict which elite athletes will win.

It's like being 7ft tall makes it more likely you will play in the NBA, but once you compare NBA players height doesn't dictate which one will be best.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

He actually had no natural physiological advantages over other professional cyclists.

Dominating record holders tend not to have any physiological metric that separates them from their elite peers.

Such things help you to become an elite athlete, but they don't predict which elite athletes will win.

It's like being 7ft tall makes it more likely you will play in the NBA, but once you compare NBA players height doesn't dictate which one will be best.

He had several recorbreaking physiological advantages that weren't common, even among cyclists.
The Science Of Lance Armstrong

 

[Wildswanderer]

Will this become the norm?
Where transgender athletes will dominate female sports?

"Laurel Hubbard lifted a whopping 628 pounds in two lifts to qualify for her first Olympic Games. And when she competes in Tokyo next month, she will make history as the first openly transgender athlete." ever to do so.

Weightlifter will be first trans athlete to compete at Olympics

Once a male, always a male. This isn't fair to true woman athletes.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Good. May she do well and those that pretend to care about athletic fairness while praising people with unfair biological advantages like Lance Armstrong or Michael Phelps choke on it.

I'm sure all natural born female athletes will appreciate that sediment.

 

[Revoltingest]

Good. May she do well and those that pretend to care about athletic fairness while praising people with unfair biological advantages like Lance Armstrong or Michael Phelps choke on it.

I don't know who you accuse of pretense of fairness,
but that seems a cheap shot against those with a
different perspective.

"Fairness" can be complex, with distinctions made based
upon weight, gender, age, experience, amateur status,
citizenship, etc, depending upon venue. When an athlete
spans a couple distinctions, controversy arises over what's
fair...based upon pre-existing standards.

To be more gifted within a given group has long been accepted.
But we now face the potential that trans women might have
an inherent advantage over cis women. It's reasonable for
them to be concerned about this.

 

[Augustus]

He had several recorbreaking physiological advantages that weren't common, even among cyclists.
The Science Of Lance Armstrong

That's a PR puff piece to "explain" Armstrong's completely unnatural transformation from a good one day specialist to the most dominant Grand Tour racer of all time.

Miguel Indurain had a pulse of 28. Greg Lemond had a VO2 max at 92.5 far more than LA' s 84. 84 is not remarkable for a pro cyclist.

That he was doping was obvious long before he was caught as his transformation was basically impossible as he had the wrong physiology to win the races he did. The general public were oblivious, but it was clear to those who follow cycling and are moderately critical in thinking.

Think of Usain Bolt winning the 1500m against known dopers right after recovering from cancer.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

That's a PR puff piece to "explain" Armstrong's completely unnatural transformation from a good one day specialist to the most dominant Grand Tour racer of all time.

Miguel Indurain had a pulse of 28. Greg Lemond had a VO2 max at 92.5 far more than LA' s 84. 84 is not remarkable for a pro cyclist.

That he was doping was obvious long before he was caught as his transformation was basically impossible as he had the wrong physiology to win the races he did. The general public were oblivious, but it was clear to those who follow cycling and are moderately critical in thinking.

Think of Usain Bolt winning the 1500m against known dopers right after recovering from cancer.

Any evidence that the record breaking parts mentioned are common or that they were the result of doping?

What about other athletes who didn't dope like Phelps?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm sure all natural born female athletes will appreciate that sediment.

Women aren't a monolith. But they sure do get buried in a lot of monolithic expectation of what an acceptable woman is.
I wouldn't be allowed to compete without taking hormones to bring up 'acceptable' levels of estrogen. The whole thing's a sham.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Good. May she do well and those that pretend to care about athletic fairness while praising people with unfair biological advantages like Lance Armstrong or Michael Phelps choke on it.

I do care about athletic fairness, and I don't really appreciate being told to 'choke on it'. I invest plenty of time into women's sports, and have a more nuanced opinion on this than you seem to be assuming by this comment.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I do care about athletic fairness, and I don't really appreciate being told to 'choke on it'. I invest plenty of time into women's sports, and have a more nuanced opinion on this than you seem to be assuming by this comment.

I don't know what your specific opinion is on this so I won't comment. But I have seen plenty of opinions of people invested in women's sports who are not happy with how women are being defined, and happy to see transwomen not be stuck in the frankly transphobic dilemma of 'if do well = really a man, should play with men' 'if do not so well = acceptable'
And I can't think of a more nuanced opinion than selective merit based views being flawed.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I don't know what your specific opinion is on this so I won't comment. But I have seen plenty of opinions of people invested in women's sports who are not happy with how women are being defined, and happy to see transwomen not be stuck in the frankly transphobic dilemma of 'if do well = really a man, should play with men' 'if do not so well = acceptable'
And I can't think of a more nuanced opinion than selective merit based views being flawed.

That's up-to you. But in my experience telling the 'other side' to choke on it without discussion isn't great, and I don't appreciate it.
I get that there are plenty of people using this topic as a vehicle for sexist views, or to push ignorant tropes. That doesn't change the fact that there is more complexity, and more people effected by this than a simplistic argument seems to allow for. I can reject the sexist view and ignorant tropes without needing to become reactionary. At least, I hope I can.

I'm happy to talk through some of the nuance around this if you're willing to do so, but in my experience many of the people talking about women's sport have very little interest in women's sport (and I'm not aiming that at you, it's a general comment) and are using this topic for purposes other than discussing women's sport.

 

[Augustus]

Any evidence that the record breaking parts mentioned are common or that they were the result of doping?

There is no evidence in the article that they are not common, it just assumes the audience doesn't know any better.

84 is 15% lower than the record, and you've never heard of the record holder which says a lot.

VO2 max World Records

LA's wasn't the result of doping though, LA happened to be a 'hyper-responder' to doping which means he basically got more out of it than the average doper (which was basically 95% of pro-cyclists).

Tyler Hamilton's book The secret race is a good place to start if you are interested in what actually happens.

What about other athletes who didn't dope like Phelps?

Either swimming is a clean sport (which it is not), or he almost certainly dopes.

But ignoring that, what specific metrics make Phelps unique among pro swimmers?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

There is no evidence in the article that they are not common, it just assumes the audience doesn't know any better.

84 is 15% lower than the record, and you've never heard of the record holder which says a lot.

VO2 max World Records

LA's wasn't the result of doping though, LA happened to be a 'hyper-responder' to doping which means he basically got more out of it than the average doper (which was basically 95% of pro-cyclists).

Tyler Hamilton's book The secret race is a good place to start if you are interested in what actually happens.



Either swimming is a clean sport (which it is not), or he almost certainly dopes.

But ignoring that, what specific metrics make Phelps unique among pro swimmers?

Unique is probably not the right way of thinking of him, but he (like Ian Thorpe) has some unusual genetics which help. Larger than average feet, longer than average arms, shorter than average legs.
There have also been studies on lactic acid production suggesting he produces less than other pro swimmers (who often have genetic advantages over 'average' humans).

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I'm happy to talk through some of the nuance around this if you're willing to do so, but in my experience many of the people talking about women's sport have very little interest in women's sport (and I'm not aiming that at you, it's a general comment) and are using this topic for purposes other than discussing women's sport.

Not responding defensively or following this discussion completely in every way, but I tend to care just a little about women's sports. What I see is two political sides in the world kind of jumping to conclusions about transgender people before all information has come in (like on transgender people in women's sports), and in some cases, political leaders kind of listening to what evidence there is and from experts, then turning around and ignoring it completely.

That's neither here nor there though. My stance on the subject is actually I was on female hormones a few months and that does some pretty dramatic things to your body, so I'd see from personal experience someone who was taking female hormones, as no less than a woman or someone in a third gender category. I don't think muscles can even be accurately compared between someone on hormones not at all and someone on hormones a couple years and still on them.

However, I probably won't be able to convey that here. It's a debate and I don't care like testing my debating skills or grouping my stances into formal rather than informal discussion categories, any more than I have to. So if I recall, I kept my replies a bit.. simple... in case they were helpful but I didn't have to dive too far in.

3 months on female hormones for example, strengthened parts of my legs while on them, maybe balance could have been slightly different, using the bathroom was a bit different. And I kind of opted out of lifting the heavy things I used to during that time.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know what your specific opinion is on this so I won't comment.

You should be able to express your opinions without knowing mine.
Had you asked though, I'd have said that I favor much more
experience & consideration regarding trans-women competing.
I favor inclusion as a default, but also recognize that it cannot
be unregulated. We have regulations now. We will see how
well they work. With time we'll better understand the issues.

But I have seen plenty of opinions of people invested in women's sports who are not happy with how women are being defined, and happy to see transwomen not be stuck in the frankly transphobic dilemma of 'if do well = really a man, should play with men' 'if do not so well = acceptable'
And I can't think of a more nuanced opinion than selective merit based views being flawed.

OK.

 

[Augustus]

Unique is probably not the right way of thinking of him, but he (like Ian Thorpe) has some unusual genetics which help. Larger than average feet, longer than average arms, shorter than average legs.
There have also been studies on lactic acid production suggesting he produces less than other pro swimmers (who often have genetic advantages over 'average' humans).

If you studied all pro-swimmers in the same way though, it is unlikely (although possible), that he would have the best physiology from the perspective of such metrics.

Within elite competitors, in general, such metrics tend to have great predictive value for picking winners.

They certainly form part of the package though.

 

[Augustus]

I have seen plenty of opinions of people invested in women's sports who are not happy with how women are being defined, and happy to see transwomen not be stuck in the frankly transphobic dilemma of 'if do well = really a man, should play with men' 'if do not so well = acceptable'
And I can't think of a more nuanced opinion than selective merit based views being flawed.

That's the problem with this issue, there are bad faith arguments on both sides that revolve around rank prejudice, or the assumption that the only way one could object is rank prejudice.

As an issue of competing rights then there are good faith arguments to be made whether the rights to inclusivity for transwomen are more important than the rights of ciswomen to have a protected category of sports that allows them to compete fairly (the scientific evidence that shows a sizeable and sustained advantage is pretty conclusive these days).

Also, in many sports (rugby, Aussie rules, boxing, etc.) there is a direct competition between inclusivity and player welfare.

As this is an ethical question, what level of increased risk for cisgender women is acceptable to further the rights of transwomen to compete in women's sport?

The increased risk is very well established scientifically.

 

[ronki23]

How is it fair for an ex-male to compete in a female division ? You can't use the excuse of 'low testosterone' when it comes to sports that require a lot of physical strength because that involves weight training and weight training increases growth hormone naturally (with a high protein/ fat diet)

Either you ban the ex-male or you allow the women to take steroids

 

[Revoltingest]

Either you ban the ex-male or you allow the women to take steroids

I expect a useful middle ground to arise.
It seems unlikely, but there might even be an asterisk
designation for wins & records set by trans women.

 

[Twilight Hue]

We'll see how she actually does. She's older for an Olympian, and her testosterone levels meet the requirements set by the Olympics. Trans people who transition have been allowed to compete for years, and have not "dominated" every sport yet, so I don't think it's going to suddenly happen now.

That's due to not many transitional people entering sports earlier.

It all depends on the sport and how many enter.

I'm sure , if unchecked, trans people will dominate over natural born genders.