Western extremists violence consequences VS Muslims extremists violence consequences in recent histo

[Godobeyer]

Hi to all

I have two points to discuss here , one for the our recent past and one for our futur ."Western extremists violence consequences VS Muslims extremists violence consequences in recent history !! "

1-for me i did not considrate any terrorist as muslim even "bad muslim",maybe some people here would be shocked, if i tell you "let's suppose i face a case when i would eliminate group of terrorists (extrem muslims) to save one innocent non-muslim" .
for sure i would eliminate them to save one innocent non-muslim.

2-when western people forget the events in recent last 100 years when they were in violence,and colonisation to whole the world , racist and slavery against black .

- Is not first nuclear bomb hit the civilians done by the western, not the muslims ?

- In World WAR 1,2 the western countries fight each others , which cost 60 millions ,in war the armies used in it a simple guns !!!!

- so we the muslims did not reach that number yet "60 millions " !!!

as resume to my two previous point , (if i considerate Bin Laden as Muslim ) top extremist of Muslims recently "Bin laden" vs top extremist of west recently "Hitler" , who killed more ?

3-let's suppose that the Third World War begin for OIL or for any reason , that's mean next war it's mean maybe the end of the humanity

thanks for reading ,
I just hope that this thread did not considerate as an offend/provocation to anyone here

 

[sandandfoam]

I was reading last night about the first time the British used machine guns in action. It happened in the Sudan - there were more than 10,000 Sudanese dead after the battle aginst, I think, 48 British dead. At the time the British Empire covered a quarter of the world and was regarded with awe as the worlds only superpower. Not many years later the first world war happened.
It made me think of the current superpower and how easily it kills during overseas operations for a relatively small loss of life amongst its own servicemen and women.
Killing anyone is a very bad idea.

 

[Reverend Rick]

My friend Godobeyor. Perhaps if the whole planet just took a month away from violence we all might learn to like it.

A few points here, The West is getting away from foriegn oil, so that arguement may improve.

Perhaps if Israel where left alone, they would do the same.

Someone has to take the first step.

The problem as I see it is when different people want to tell others how to act.

No one is perfect, but if everyone quit trying to change someone else, perhaps we could all live better.

Or........we could all kill each other and not even met or discussed anything first.

Why do we all have to think or believe the same thing?

We all want to live and enjoy life right?

 

[Thana]

I completely understand and agree with your point,
We're all as bad as each other.

However, That doesn't mean we dismiss what is happening now, Just because we may have done something similar in the past.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Reverend Rick]

The thing is Thana, many times the things held against us where done before we ever was born.

My country did not drop no nukes when I was alive and I am an old fart.

I never owned slaves and as far as I know, neither did my relatives. They came to the States right after the Civil war.

If we ever are to have world peace, we have to quit keeping score. As long as we are getting even with one another it will never end.

 

[Flankerl]

I dont get the idea behind this thread.

 

[YmirGF]

I dont get the idea behind this thread.

Two stupids make a smart?

 

[Kerr]

Hi to all

I have two points to discuss here , one for the our recent past and one for our futur ."Western extremists violence consequences VS Muslims extremists violence consequences in recent history !! "

1-for me i did not considrate any terrorist as muslim even "bad muslim",maybe some people here would be shocked, if i tell you "let's suppose i face a case when i would eliminate group of terrorists (extrem muslims) to save one innocent non-muslim" .
for sure i would eliminate them to save one innocent non-muslim.

2-when western people forget the events in recent last 100 years when they were in violence,and colonisation to whole the world , racist and slavery against black .

- Is not first nuclear bomb hit the civilians done by the western, not the muslims ?

- In World WAR 1,2 the western countries fight each others , which cost 60 millions ,in war the armies used in it a simple guns !!!!

- so we the muslims did not reach that number yet "60 millions " !!!

as resume to my two previous point , (if i considerate Bin Laden as Muslim ) top extremist of Muslims recently "Bin laden" vs top extremist of west recently "Hitler" , who killed more ?

3-let's suppose that the Third World War begin for OIL or for any reason , that's mean next war it's mean maybe the end of the humanity

thanks for reading ,
I just hope that this thread did not considerate as an offend/provocation to anyone here

I have no illusions over that the west consists of saints and I am not blind enough to believe terrorism is a Muslim thing. Personally I dont think its very constructive to try and show that the "other side" is worse, though. Its like trying to figure out if Stalin or Hitler was worse. Does it really matter? Both where tyranical monsters who killed a lot of innocent people.

I truly hope we can avoid a third world war. The world would be a lot better if we, instead of pulling out a gun used a pen to solve our differences.

 

[Kerr]

The thing is Thana, many times the things held against us where done before we ever was born.

My country did not drop no nukes when I was alive and I am an old fart.

I never owned slaves and as far as I know, neither did my relatives. They came to the States right after the Civil war.

If we ever are to have world peace, we have to quit keeping score. As long as we are getting even with one another it will never end.

Pretty much. Keeping score is just another way to divide the world into "us" and "them", and that tends to be a rather bad idea to do.

 

[illykitty]

I have no illusions over that the west consists of saints and I am not blind enough to believe terrorism is a Muslim thing. Personally I dont think its very constructive to try and show that the "other side" is worse, though. Its like trying to figure out if Stalin or Hitler was worse. Does it really matter? Both where tyranical monsters who killed a lot of innocent people.

I truly hope we can avoid a third world war. The world would be a lot better if we, instead of pulling out a gun used a pen to solve our differences.

Ditto, I agree with this. I've met a lot more people who acknowledge the bad than to think we are the "good" guys.

Pretty much. Keeping score is just another way to divide the world into "us" and "them", and that tends to be a rather bad idea to do.

True, divisions create conflict. As soon as you have us and them, people start feeling the other "side" is not the same and they begin to seem less human. It's a lot easier to commit atrocities when you think this way.

---

I understand why the OP did this thread but I don't think it will achieve much. What do you want us "westerners" do? Most people oppose wars and bombing of other countries yet politicians do it anyway. If anything, politicians and whoever pulls their strings should be criticised.

That's why personally I'm for huge changes in the way our society works but we're not enough people yet that want to take a new step in a different direction.

 

[Godobeyer]

I was reading last night about the first time the British used machine guns in action. It happened in the Sudan - there were more than 10,000 Sudanese dead after the battle aginst, I think, 48 British dead. At the time the British Empire covered a quarter of the world and was regarded with awe as the worlds only superpower. Not many years later the first world war happened.
It made me think of the current superpower and how easily it kills during overseas operations for a relatively small loss of life amongst its own servicemen and women.
Killing anyone is a very bad idea.

I see ,good historic evidence that you recite

it's about the invade British to Sudan by machine guns in that time ."machine guns were new and more efficace"

Yes the current superpower , and superpower guns are more dangerous , it's looks like randome heavy weapons, because it's take more innocents.

So may next World War would be by nuclear weapons .

 

[Godobeyer]

My friend Godobeyor. Perhaps if the whole planet just took a month away from violence we all might learn to like it.

that's my hope too , but why "month" ?

so you suggest a month of "fast" from violence , i am just joking my friend

A few points here, The West is getting away from foriegn oil, so that arguement may improve.

it's over the west is take control in sources of OIL in Persain Gulf , there is no worries for them right not , except Iran .

so the only worry is about Iran by the west , to hit the sources of OIL in kings of oil and Iraq ,IF it's happend in that time ,the the world will stop .
and maybe the third World War will begin .

Perhaps if Israel where left alone, they would do the same.

excuse me , I did not understand your point here

Someone has to take the first step.

The problem as I see it is when different people want to tell others how to act.

No one is perfect, but if everyone quit trying to change someone else, perhaps we could all live better.

Or........we could all kill each other and not even met or discussed anything first.

Why do we all have to think or believe the same thing?

We all want to live and enjoy life right?

That's right brother, we are different .

This the position of Islam about this issue :

btw this is what He adresse to ALL mankind (not only the muslims):

13. O mankind, WE have created you from a male and a female;
And WE have made you tribes and sub-tribes that you may know one another.
Verily, the most honourable among you, in the sight of ALLAH,
is he who is the most righteous among you. Surely, ALLAH is All-Knowing, All-Aware.



so it's the God wish that He made us different in think and beliefs , NOT one people !!! this is what He said about our differents .

93. And if ALLAH had enforced HIS will, HE would surely have made you all one people;
but HE lets go astray him who wishes it, and guides him who wishes it,
and you shall surely be questioned concerning that which you have been doing.


48. And WE have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling
that which was revealed before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it. Judge,
therefore, between them by what ALLAH has revealed, and follow not their evil desires, turning away from the truth which has come to thee. For each of you WE prescribed a clear spiritual Law and a manifest way in secular matters. And if ALLAH had enforced HIS will, HE would have made you all one people, but HE wishes to try you by that which HE has given you.
Vie then with one another in doing good works. To ALLAH shall you all return;
then HE will inform you of that wherein you differed;


But God created us with mind , to distingue between bad and good , that's why we have almost the we have the same commun sense .
so that i disagree with the extremists in west and muslim world,whom want to eliminate the other because they see them self as superior mind or kind ...etc
.both sides don't care about the innocents of the other or sometimes their own civilians.

 

[Reverend Rick]

This is why I am so conflicted. I love the Saudis and Egyptians. I also support Israel's right to exist.

On the other hand, countries like North Korea and Iran scare the hell out of me.

I guess it is just a matter of time someone will let the nuclear genie out of the bottle.

Yes, the United States did this, but we really did not realise just how terrible this was going to be.

Bombing Japan was a terrible thing and I don't think we ever want to do something like that again.

Does Iran and North Korea realise you can't win a nuclear war no mater how many bombs they have?

The Soviet Union and the United States finally figured it out. You just can't go there, EVERYONE WILL DIE, SO IT CAN'T BE AN OPTION.

 

[BSM1]

Hi to all

I have two points to discuss here , one for the our recent past and one for our futur ."Western extremists violence consequences VS Muslims extremists violence consequences in recent history !! "

1-for me i did not considrate any terrorist as muslim even "bad muslim",maybe some people here would be shocked, if i tell you "let's suppose i face a case when i would eliminate group of terrorists (extrem muslims) to save one innocent non-muslim" .
for sure i would eliminate them to save one innocent non-muslim.

2-when western people forget the events in recent last 100 years when they were in violence,and colonisation to whole the world , racist and slavery against black .

- Is not first nuclear bomb hit the civilians done by the western, not the muslims ?

- In World WAR 1,2 the western countries fight each others , which cost 60 millions ,in war the armies used in it a simple guns !!!!

- so we the muslims did not reach that number yet "60 millions " !!!

as resume to my two previous point , (if i considerate Bin Laden as Muslim ) top extremist of Muslims recently "Bin laden" vs top extremist of west recently "Hitler" , who killed more ?

3-let's suppose that the Third World War begin for OIL or for any reason , that's mean next war it's mean maybe the end of the humanity

thanks for reading ,
I just hope that this thread did not considerate as an offend/provocation to anyone here

Although you are trying to use a numerical argument to make a logical assumption, I think that comparing the defeat of an armed enemy will not evoke the same emotions in people as someone callously blowing up a bus or shopping mall full of kids.

 

[Godobeyer]

I have no illusions over that the west consists of saints and I am not blind enough to believe terrorism is a Muslim thing. Personally I dont think its very constructive to try and show that the "other side" is worse, though. Its like trying to figure out if Stalin or Hitler was worse. Does it really matter? Both where tyranical monsters who killed a lot of innocent people.

me too, I am not blind enough to realise that the crimes of the western against each others and against the other nations are not comparable with what done by some muslims to each other , or done by extrem muslims to muslims and non-muslims.

in recent past ,34 years ago ,the only war between the muslims with each other that i know was between Iraq and Iran , by the push of the west to remove the regime of Iran .

my point is ,Hitler and Stalin ,were western leader , so the west genocide each other consquences had not comparatble with what done by some extrem muslims like Bin Laden for exemple.
99% the victimes of Ideoligy of AlQaeda arewere Muslims .





I believe the media get princible role to represent bad event as good event , and good event as bad event , about what happened in WW1 and WW2.
Then why Hollywood did not made movie about nuclear strick to Hiroshima ? and represent the suffereing of innocent Japaness ? as they made film about Perl Harbal

So the western media make up the history, by ignoring the crimes of the western , and represent only/clearly the crimes of the other Japanes in the WW2 !!!!

I truly hope we can avoid a third world war. The world would be a lot better if we, instead of pulling out a gun used a pen to solve our differences.

I believe The world War come soon (next 50 years) for oil , maybe we the muslims becomes the only servivers , because we don't have nuclear weapons .

 

[Godobeyer]

This is why I am so conflicted. I love the Saudis and Egyptians. I also support Israel's right to exist.

EDITED :
so you support Palestine to exist too ? , i don't support the regime of Israel as you know , only if it's becomes justice with all his residences ,Arabs Rights = Jewish Rights

building house to jews and ignore the arabs !!! that's racist and distinction in rights .


On the other hand, countries like North Korea and Iran scare the hell out of me.

I guess it is just a matter of time someone will let the nuclear genie out of the bottle.

Yes, the United States did this, but we really did not realise just how terrible this was going to be.

Bombing Japan was a terrible thing and I don't think we ever want to do something like that again.

Does Iran and North Korea realise you can't win a nuclear war no mater how many bombs they have?

The Soviet Union and the United States finally figured it out. You just can't go there, EVERYONE WILL DIE, SO IT CAN'T BE AN OPTION.

I believe Iran don't run for make nuclear weapon , it's just big lie by the west (as they do with Iraq)
because they (Iran) believe and declare everytime ,nuclear weapon is forbiden in Islam , and they had no problem to make their peaceful nuclear project under control .

so USA want to hit Iran by any reason , but the Iranis had one joker card to win , to hit the sources of oil in the region, and export ports of oil .

so USA surrender to Iran , and maybe the war start for oil .

 

[Kerr]

me too, I am not blind enough to realise that the crimes of the western against each others and against the other nations are not comparable with what done by some muslims to each other , or done by extrem muslims to muslims and non-muslims.

in recent past ,34 years ago ,the only war between the muslims with each other that i know was between Iraq and Iran , by the push of the west to remove the regime of Iran .

my point is ,Hitler and Stalin ,were western leader , so the west genocide each other consquences had not comparatble with what done by some extrem muslims like Bin Laden for exemple.
99% the victimes of Ideoligy of AlQaeda arewere Muslims .

And there has been many tyrants who where not of the west. Mao would be one example. And genocide isnt restricted to the west, either. The most obvious example, for me, would be Rwanda. As I see it, no one is a saint. Not the west, nor anyone else. I have no love for atrocities or tyranny. Who does it, doesnt matter. And "who is worse", doesnt matter either. People are tortured. People die. Families shatter. That is what matters.

I believe the media get princible role to represent bad event as good event , and good event as bad event , about what happened in WW1 and WW2.
Then why Hollywood did not made movie about nuclear strick to Hiroshima ? and represent the suffereing of innocent Japaness ? as they made film about Perl Harbal

So the western media make up the history, by ignoring the crimes of the western , and represent only/clearly the crimes of the other Japanes in the WW2 !!!!

To be picky, Hollywood isnt the west . And they are not in it to be historically accurate. To be fair, the Japanese did attack first. But that doesnt justify what happened.

Being skeptical of the media is, as far as I am concerned, always a good thing. Not saying you should be paranoid, just skeptical and be aware that media doesnt always give the complete picture. That applies to any media, btw. Not just western media.

I believe The world War come soon (next 50 years) for oil , maybe we the muslims becomes the only servivers , because we don't have nuclear weapons .

Probably. But if we at least try to avoid it, perhaps it might not happen (although thats unlikely).

 

[Godobeyer]

Although you are trying to use a numerical argument to make a logical assumption, I think that comparing the defeat of an armed enemy will not evoke the same emotions in people as someone callously blowing up a bus or shopping mall full of kids.

the crime is crime, done by army or by groups or invidual
done by ideology or religion ...etc it's still crime .

the numerical is just for count .
which kill more "we the muslims or the western ", so result is for sure the western kill each others and "the other" more .


so the result is crime .

I think that the western media stuck the word "terrorist"
to invidual or groups criminals done their crimes by the name of Islam .

so IF a muslim do crime it's terrorism, but IF a western (or some else non-muslim) do the same crime, it's Just crime .

So if some one condemne the crimes of Zionism (extrem jews orgnisation), or deny the holocust , he is anti-semitic


btw in in some countries (like France) Deny God, Deny Jesus (pbuh) deny even your whole family, Deny you country ;that freedom of speech...etc but not the holocust because you would be pay or jailed for that.

So the west is not perfect , it's had double stand in some cases .

 

[Godobeyer]

I completely understand and agree with your point,
We're all as bad as each other.

However, That doesn't mean we dismiss what is happening now, Just because we may have done something similar in the past.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I am glade that you understand me and agree with my point.

Let me tell you a story about my life experience ,
We in Algeria 98 % are muslim, in 1992 we suffered from Terrorists

Now Algeria becomes almost clean from this kind of persons ,i can said we the first country completely defeat the terrorists.

We (Algeria) used two ways of treatement 1-ideologic and 2-force at the same time :

1- eliminate them , i can bet that Algerian Army killed more than 10 000 of terrorists,during 20 years .

2- convince them (terrorists) that this kind of Actions has no reference/evidence support in Islam ,they are in wrong way.
so they drop their arm "penitent".

 

[Godobeyer]

I have an important announcement here :

We the muslims are/were suffered from the extremist of the muslims and western, as extactly as the western suffered from Nazi and extremist whom they done their crimes by the name of Islam .

it's not for hiding the crimes of Alqeada behind the crimes of Nazi ...etc

I just make a remind that we may take the same path of your past