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Western vs Eastern Buddhism

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I just dont care for putting down westerners as a whole bothersome.
I am having trouble here. Do you mean that you find "don't care for putting down westerners as a whole" AND that you find "putting down westerners as a whole [as] bothersome"? Because that's the impression that I get, rather than that you "don't care for putting down westerners as a whole [as] bothersome."

Generalizations are always inaccurate, but are the foundation of cognition. Categorization is THE fundamental cognitive process (it underlies perception, forms the basis for words, enables language and mathematical thought, etc.). I was a practitioner of Japanese Buddhism and then Chinese Buddhism before I knew anything of the history of religions or the concept religion. I didn't have any direct instruction/experience with Indian Buddhism or religion (just academic). And as the foundations of "Western" thought are a combination of (the evolved concepts of) Near-Eastern traditions/concepts, Judaism, and Greco-Roman Culture even the generalized foundations of Religion form a myriad of contradictions.

Nor did religion emerge as a Western concept. It was completely absent from Greek and Roman thought, up to and including the emergence of Christianity. It is actually non-Western in that it is actually most fundamentally a product of the ancient Near-East. That said, "traditional" interpretations/views of Eastern "religions" like Buddhism are modern constructs that emerged from (among other things) East-West interactions.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I'm not trying to put down Westerners, I'm actually an Easterner technically coming from Australia, but that's still a Westerner country, I'm just pointing out that Buddhism by all accounts is an Asian religion, and a lot of teachers that came from Asia to preach in the West were kicked out of Asia for misconduct, And came to the west for fame and fortune, not enlightenment, the worst example being the drunkard womanizer Chogyam Trungpa. Unfortunately a lot of monks more concerned with making money and womanizing became the source of "wisdom" for many Westerners, so its not hard to imagine some misconceptions about traditional Buddhist teachings could have arisen in the West. Its sort of like if you want to get the real message, get it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Buddhism is an Asian Phenomenon, and many variations of Buddhism that are prevalent in the West today are not really typical of Asian philosophy.

This seems to be less of a problem for the Thai Forest tradition, they seem to be quite honourable if not overly strict IMHO.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
I just dont care for putting down westerners as a whole bothersome. I see this in online religion. I dont see this often in person. Its still there nonetheless

I don't think it's putting us Westerners down to say we often get fed a lot of watered-down versions of things which are easy to digest and sell - or that oversimplification is part of excessive classification, labeling, translation, etc.

People sell feel good, easy effort versions of religion/spirituality/philosophy to Westerners regularly and I think it's important for us to look into it from time to time.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not trying to put down Westerners
"Western" thought is somehow fundamentally a product of Greek philosophy (and the small extensions of it made by Romans) and a Near-Eastern religion (Judaism) as it existed in 2nd temple Judaism. Much of the Greek thought that was to influence early Modern Western thought was due to the preservation of Greek texts by the Islamic empire (which also substantially contributed to "Western" thought via e.g., the invention and introduction of algebra). Even Christianity didn't fit the concept of "religion" for some many centuries and to the extent it did, this is only to the extent Judaism was unique. Put simply, "Western" thought grew out of a combination of Near-Eastern religious traditions and a rather ad hoc amalgamation of these and Greco-Roman intellectual traditions, making "Western" thought not exactly "Western".
That said, the East-West dichotomy was primarily a Western invention which helped, in fundamental ways, the development of what is now regarded as Eastern religion.

I'm actually an Easterner technically coming from Australia
The East-West dichotomy is problematic enough without actually introducing geography. Perhaps your use of Asian would serve better here than my use of Eastern.
I'm just pointing out that Buddhism by all accounts is an Asian religion
Not by all accounts. Not even by most accounts, depending upon whether one wishes to apply the concept "religion" that the English lexeme and it's corresponding lexemes in modern IE languages connote. It is certainly akin to Western religions, but those that we find in ancient Greece and Rome, not the Christian concept of late antiquity and beyond.

Unfortunately a lot of monks more concerned with making money and womanizing became the source of "wisdom" for many Westerners
In many cases Western commentators are the only sources we have for "ancient" teachings, in no sources do we find modern "traditional" Buddhism, and we can track the lack of any such concept easily via textual analysis, both of religious texts and other sources. We can't even begin to trace any historical Buddhism in the loosest sense until centuries after Buddha's teachings were well-known and spread throughout vast religions (I don't mean by this to imply that the historical Buddha existed). Modern traditional Buddhism is mostly a series of modern interpretations and a sort of canonicalization of a select number of ancient texts, not dissimilar to the creation of Greco-Roman religious mythology by Western scholars seeking to make Greco-Roman religion a "religion of the book" by mis-constructing Ovid, Homer, Hesiod, Sophocles, etc.

Buddhism is an Asian Phenomenon
As much as Quakers are a Near-Eastern phenomenon.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I
I am having trouble here. Do you mean that you find "don't care for putting down westerners as a whole" AND that you find "putting down westerners as a whole [as] bothersome"? Because that's the impression that I get, rather than that you "don't care for putting down westerners as a whole [as] bothersome."

Generalizations are always inaccurate, but are the foundation of cognition. Categorization is THE fundamental cognitive process (it underlies perception, forms the basis for words, enables language and mathematical thought, etc.). I was a practitioner of Japanese Buddhism and then Chinese Buddhism before I knew anything of the history of religions or the concept religion. I didn't have any direct instruction/experience with Indian Buddhism or religion (just academic). And as the foundations of "Western" thought are a combination of (the evolved concepts of) Near-Eastern traditions/concepts, Judaism, and Greco-Roman Culture even the generalized foundations of Religion form a myriad of contradictions.

Nor did religion emerge as a Western concept. It was completely absent from Greek and Roman thought, up to and including the emergence of Christianity. It is actually non-Western in that it is actually most fundamentally a product of the ancient Near-East. That said, "traditional" interpretations/views of Eastern "religions" like Buddhism are modern constructs that emerged from (among other things) East-West interactions.

I dont care for what I read online. In regards from Buddhism to "Catho-politics", there is always a "we versus them; traditional versus modern; natives versus coloners; and so forth"

Online is a condensed version of real life. Id just think being online we have time to think about what we say and how before we say it. Where, off line, first impressions deprive us ofnthat chance.

For example, you may have very well meaning Buddhist born and raised in DC with jeans and a t-shirt who has higher morals than someone raised in their faith but Only practice their belief out of duty to others, to family, to self but not for the faith in and of itself. (Its like asking my Catholic friend, have you read the Bible; do you know what your church teaches) She doesnt know and says she doesnt want to.

What I Dont like is she puts down "westeners" for our perspective of religion. Thats could also be why there are many atheist...backlash on how they view truth compared to how others do. (And Both can be just as religious)

Same concept with saying "westenerers" and "neopagans" and "western buddbists" or "UUs" and so forth.

Bothersome.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I don't think it's putting us Westerners down to say we often get fed a lot of watered-down versions of things which are easy to digest and sell - or that oversimplification is part of excessive classification, labeling, translation, etc.

People sell feel good, easy effort versions of religion/spirituality/philosophy to Westerners regularly and I think it's important for us to look into it from time to time.

Its a huge generalization to people who are westeners and dont have that mindset. Kind of like my saying All protestants are just keeping parts of the Catholic faith, marketing it with Big Churches, And making the Catholic Church have a bad rep.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I dont care for what I read online.
I don't understand this "online" thing. Is that a reference to me or to my sources or something else? I have maybe a few hundred editions of ancient texts in perhaps a have dozen languages in offline, yet my online access to databases like the TLG give me access to every source in ancient Greek available, access to every LOEB book, access to original scans of scrolls and epigrapha in a variety of languages, etc. I have access to tens of thousands of scholarly books and millions of academic journals, etc. Basically, I can access more ancient texts and modern scholarship online than I can given years of spending thousands and thousands of dollars for academic texts.
Now, none of this is a proper substitute for actual training/learning under a master (something I began before my forays into academia). But this distinction between "online" reading vs. reading has nothing to do with such a distinction. Simply put, with the right access one CANNOT read the kind of primary sources or scholarly secondary sources one must be limited to offline.

In regards from Buddhism to "Catho-politics", there is always a "we versus them; traditional versus modern; natives versus coloners; and so forth"
I've never heard the term "Catho-politics" before, and most of the historians I rely on here are Buddhist, atheist, or agnostic. Also, I rely on primary texts (I didn't spend years learning dead languages for the fun of it, but to be able to rid myself on the reliance of translators).
Online is a condensed version of real life.
Reading is a condensed version of real life. I don't get the online line objection. The greatest dictionary in existence currently exists only online. The greatest lexicons exist online or only online. No reputable journals don't exist online and many exist only online. THE ENTIRE METHOD OF CITATING IN ACADEMIA HAS CHANGED IN MANY FIELDS BECAUSE EVERYBODY relies on online versions of scholarly sources. As for practice, again that is utterly irrelevant to "online". My teachers would be no less completely ineffective if I relied on printed sources vs. online sources rather than studied under them in person.

Are you distinguishing between written sources and non-written?

For example, you may have very well meaning Buddhist born and raised in DC with jeans and a t-shirt who has higher morals than someone raised in their faith but Only practice their belief out of duty to others, to family, to self but not for the faith in and of itself.
That's a fairly accurate description of religion most generally in history: practice out of duty to others (not just family and society but tradition itself). However, personally I had to learn some Chinese and Japanese just to be able to engage in basic communication with my teachers.

Its like asking my Catholic friend, have you read the Bible; do you know what your church teaches She doesnt know and says she doesnt want to.
Catholics are notorious for being ignorant of the bible.

What I Dont like is she puts down "westeners" for our perspective of religion.
Religion is a Western concept (and one that hasn't historically existed in the West anymore than it has elsewhere).
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
It is, though I've noticed that western Buddhists can be quite patronising towards Asian Buddhists, implying that their practice and understanding are quite superficial.

How does following teachings from traditional Asian sources qualify one as superficial, superficiality doesn't really have anything to do with where you get your teachings, it has to do with not taking whatever teachings you have been taught seriously IMHO.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
This is a blog not looking for documents etc.

Online: When we say online stuff, its generally what "some" people post on websites, forums, chat rooms, blogs, etc as a whole. Its a English slang meaning people who go online express different views than what they have and may not have in person. When used in this context, it is almost alwayz negative or critical.

Cath-political: Catholic and politics combined. Its not a word. I made it up for "context" of my point not linguistic scrutiny.

In Catholicism, there is still a separation between themselves and others. As long as no other Christian but Catholics can take the Eucharist, this will always be true.

Politics have the same you versus me. Catholicism and politics go together in their line of thinking (interpret that as you wish. Its not negative; it is what it is)

No. When I say online is a condense version of real life, is we are trying to express all of who we are (in RF related to religion) on a social network where people cant read what we say all at one time. So we try to crush our points in and send a good time doing so.

We're as in person, one doesnt need all of that. Facial expressiom, body language, social comforbility, et plays a huge role in what we share.

That, and its assume what we share online is more private than in person "because" it reaches many ears at one time. If I said I was pagan where I live, it would affect me personally and how my live in neighbors communicate with me. Online. I can just cut off my phone.

It has nothing to do with all you typed and books and such. Its a blog trying to figure what the difference between these buddhisms (not academic differences) and why western buddbism is seen negatively.


I
don't understand this "online" thing. Is that a reference to me or to my sources or something else? I have maybe a few hundred editions of ancient texts in perhaps a have dozen languages in offline, yet my online access to databases like the TLG give me access to every source in ancient Greek available, access to every LOEB book, access to original scans of scrolls and epigrapha in a variety of languages, etc. I have access to tens of thousands of scholarly books and millions of academic journals, etc. Basically, I can access more ancient texts and modern scholarship online than I can given years of spending thousands and thousands of dollars for academic texts.
Now, none of this is a proper substitute for actual training/learning under a master (something I began before my forays into academia). But this distinction between "online" reading vs. reading has nothing to do with such a distinction. Simply put, with the right access one CANNOT read the kind of primary sources or scholarly secondary sources one must be limited to offline.


I've never heard the term "Catho-politics" before, and most of the historians I rely on here are Buddhist, atheist, or agnostic. Also, I rely on primary texts (I didn't spend years learning dead languages for the fun of it, but to be able to rid myself on the reliance of translators).

Reading is a condensed version of real life. I don't get the online line objection. The greatest dictionary in existence currently exists only online. The greatest lexicons exist online or only online. No reputable journals don't exist online and many exist only online. THE ENTIRE METHOD OF CITATING IN ACADEMIA HAS CHANGED IN MANY FIELDS BECAUSE EVERYBODY relies on online versions of scholarly sources. As for practice, again that is utterly irrelevant to "online". My teachers would be no less completely ineffective if I relied on printed sources vs. online sources rather than studied under them in person.

Are you distinguishing between written sources and non-written?


That's a fairly accurate description of religion most generally in history: practice out of duty to others (not just family and society but tradition itself). However, personally I had to learn some Chinese and Japanese just to be able to engage in basic communication with my teachers.


Catholics are notorious for being ignorant of the bible.


Religion is a Western concept (and one that hasn't historically existed in the West anymore than it has elsewhere).
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Online: When we say online stuff, its generally what "some" people post on websites, forums, chat rooms, blogs, etc as a whole. Its a English slang meaning people who go online express different views than what they have and may not have in person. When used in this context, it is almost alwayz negative or critical.
Ok. So if I understand you correctly, by "online" you mean something like "typical" online sources, not e.g., sources available online to historians, theologians, etc., who have access to academic databases? In that case, I agree with you.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
How does following teachings from traditional Asian sources qualify one as superficial, superficiality doesn't really have anything to do with where you get your teachings, it has to do with not taking whatever teachings you have been taught seriously IMHO.

I'm not saying it's a valid criticism.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Religion is a Western concept (and one that hasn't historically existed in the West anymore than it has elsewhere).

Im not trying to be mean. This is an example of why I feel bothered about refering to westerners more negative than their counterparts.

Religion is not a western concept; all faiths/cultures are religions. The word isnt used in most cultures because religion is a part of their life.

Religion is not just a set of beliefs. Its not a western concept or ideal. Just some groups of people "statistically, I guess you can say" separate religion from life.

I assume how we see religion now doesnt have to do with a person's western "culture" but, in Britian and America, thr separation of government and church authorities; this influence that person's "environment." Where I live it is more diverse that to call us "westeners" by morals is like calling all M $ Ms blue and then claiming Skittles is the better candy since its been out the longest. (Pretend)
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
By Traditional Eastern Buddhist I mean a temple run by Asians for Asians, you may not have many in the UK, we have a lot of refugees from SE Asia in Southern California, and a lot of temples were everything is in their language and serves as their little bit of "home" so to speak, where things run just as they did back in their country. We also have Western Buddhist Temples, often converted apartments, where Asian or American monks teach mostly Westerners in English, these tend to be less traditional in terms of preserving Asian practices and philosophy. Traditional Asian Buddhist temples serve as community centres, providing free meals to the needy, allowing homeless or poor to sleep at the temple etc, much as it is in Asia. Western Temples are also likely to charge fees for services and initiation, Asian temples in my experience only rely on donations, and the people are quite generous, one funny practice, the monks will recommend lottery numbers to play, and when the member wins big they may give 1/2 or 1/3 of their winnings to the temple, so the monks "have to be good"!!

Thai Forest tradition is not really a traditional Buddhist organization at all, but a newly formed offshoot of Buddhism, sort of like Seventh Day Adventists or Jehovah'a Witnesses are to mainstream Christianity, in that Forest monks are not like the mainstream temples and more conservative, for instance very strict on not handling money, very strict on vinaya, mainstream temples not so much, but more emphasis on the basics like precepts, rather than the more obscure rules.
Indeed, I have found some cultural nationalism present in some of the Buddhist temples around here. (Temples run by Asians for Asians, as you put it.) Not in all, however.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Im not trying to be mean.
I didn't and wouldn't imagine you were. Rather, I attribute misunderstandings to my inability to explain myself or my incapacity to understand.

Religion is not a western concept; all faiths/cultures are religions.
The concept conveyed by lexemes such as "religion" (by "like", I mean modern terms in other languages, especially IE languages, that we would translate as "religion") is a Western concept. However, religion as it has been practiced since before the written word rarely ever conforms to this concept. In other words, the concept "religion" is actually (ironically) an aberration. It describes or connotes something rather fundamentally different that "religion" as it has existed within human culture for as long as we can speak to it.
The word isnt used in most cultures because religion is a part of their life.
True. This is part of the distinction. Anything sufficiently distinct from more general social, cultural, economic, familial, etc., practices traditions to warrant ascribing to it a distinct concept like "religion" didn't and hasn't existed for most of human history. "Religion" is fundamentally a practice, or a set of practices, and is indistinguishable from more general socio-cultural phenomena and practices. This is not true of the modern concept, which is so based in doctrine, orthodoxy, belief systems, etc., that it served as the catalyst to misconstrue ancient religions from the 18th century or earlier up to and beyond the beginning of the 20th.

Religion is not just a set of beliefs. Its not a western concept or ideal.
The word "religion" (and similar words in other languages) denote a modern, Western concept that is an aberration if we have any hope to define "religion" in generally. One reason for this is precisely because religion, historically and globally, hasn't existed as a set of beliefs at all. For example, most people understand Greek religion and Roman religion as they were constructed by 19th century scholars out of poetry and drama because said scholars required religion to consist of texts and doctrine and went looking for it. It has long been known that this was woefully, pathetically wrong. Our current knowledge of religions in Greco-Roman antiquity shares much with Eastern religion, but not with more modern Western religion.

I assume how we see religion now doesnt have to do with a person's western "culture" but, in Britian and America
It depends upon American and European colonialism and scholarship, as well as an imperialistic/colonial interaction with these cultures and cultures that existed more globally, from South America to Japan.

Where I live it is more diverse that to call us "westeners"
The term refers to a cultural and intellectual heritage that is mostly early modern but which borrowed extensively from non-Christian classical culture and Near-Eastern cultures. It's at best vague and at worst a misnomer, but such is the nature of language. It retains its usefulness in that it identifies an otherwise identifiable cultural and intellectual history that is vitally important.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Thank you.

I know that "westeners" are claimed to mess things up by giving labels to romantazing supposedly "traditional" teachings. If Buddhism is mixed just as Hinduism, I am sure westerners have some good from foreigners eyes in those academic writings.

In person, I only hear that type of separation among Abrahamics. We arent the only people who are bias.

I just dont care for belittling "westerners" for what they do. I am a westener and I dont share views as most likely fifty so odd percentage of lay westeners do. Its like calling all Catholics murderers because their Church killed a lot of people so people today are supposed to mirror the outlook of their Church history. I hope they do not.

Take westerners out the picture. Say Colonist or Spaniads in this time period or so on. Generalizations are hurtful. Not just in Buddhism but in general.
At times I like to throw out some traditional insight garnered from an unlikely source of all places, a bullheaded irritatingly dogmatic monk called Buddhadasa Bhikkhu who penned, "The Handbook for Mankind." He certainly took no prisoners addressing the metaphysical and spiritual garbage that has encroached into Buddhist teachings over the centuries.

Sometimes I tend to think I might be a closet Theravadaian. Eh, sometimes.....
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Indeed, I have found some cultural nationalism present in some of the Buddhist temples around here. (Temples run by Asians for Asians, as you put it.) Not in all, however.

Oh yeah, you will run into some major barriers if you try to push Westernisms on the Asians at the temple, Several things are needed to get along; If you are a man show no interest in the women(knowing Westerners from their countries one of the first things they will think is you are there for the women), they'll test you on this, be careful to learn to understand their accent when they speak English(which may not be easy), Bow and pay respect to the Buddha in their traditional manner, show a genuine interest in what they say and teach you, and don't try to argue with them about other theories on Buddhism etc.(questions, comparisons are fine) They generally have a less than perfect impression of some Westerners, and your goal, if you want to learn is to show them you are different(they are used to racist Westerners who act superior to them). For instance if you think and feel you are superior to them in knowledge and about Buddhism, you may not get far!!

Generally to the degree you try to adapt yourself to appreciating their culture, they will accept you with open arms.

PS the senior monks may not speak English, and you may have to rely on novice monks that speak better English or lay members that have lived in the country longer, if you can narrow it down to one or two really important questions you can get them to translate for the senior monks answers. Also the language situation tends to be different from one temple to another.
 
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