What are Americans?

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I'm not getting your point

Belief in the individual is dying here. Now most of the time you get these whiny, bleeding heart types that think it's everybody's problem if somebody can't pull their own weight.

 

[Riverwolf]

So...nothing wrong with Hitler's myth of a superior German race and that of Jews as untermenschen? Or Christians and Jews as 'chosen' as compared to those who are condemned? How about the myth of white Anglo-European racial and moral superiority compared to the 'inferior' American Indian? Currently, American Christians are busy trying to wipe out Hinduism in India to replace it with Christianity. They go to Hindu cremation ceremonies and shout obscenities in the faces of grieving Hindu families because their gods are 'demonic'.

Are these the only manifestations of the Hero myth that you see?

What about refusing to buy anything from Electronic Arts because they're so corrupt? What about trying to get away from Microsoft in favor of the open-sourced Linux?

What about those nonviolent fights against nonviolent corruption?

What I meant was that the internet has a life of its own.

Yes, I know.

By "real life", I mean "outside the internet."

The Jung/Freud book was originally a Barnes and Nobles bargain book. Probably find it in a local used bookstore.

Yes, Campbell. One of the few really enlightened men of our times.

Indeed.

And, on Campbell and his version of the Hero myth, there's a game called Journey which is a direct adaptation of the Hero's Journey.

It's a noncombat game.

 

[Riverwolf]

Belief in the individual is dying here. Now most of the time you get these whiny, bleeding heart types that think it's everybody's problem if somebody can't pull their own weight.

Well, we can't. We rely on others for just about everything. After all, we are a social species.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Well, we can't.

We can't what?

We rely on others for just about everything. After all, we are a social species.

^^The attitude that's killing us right now... In the end, you can only count on yourself. Even your shadow leaves you when it's dark.

 

[Riverwolf]

We can't what?

Be fully self-reliant. Unless you live as a wildman, you're relying on others.

^^The attitude that's killing us right now... In the end, you can only count on yourself. Even your shadow leaves you when it's dark.

Did you grow your own food from seeds you picked from the woods? Did you build your own house from trees you cut down with tools you made yourself from materials you gathered?

This computer you're using: did you build it from the silicon level up to the working version you're using now?

No to any of these? Then you're relying on others as it is.

This "you can only count on yourself" thing is nonsense. No one's ever abandoned me.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Be fully self-reliant. Unless you live as a wildman, you're relying on others.
Did you grow your own food from seeds you picked from the woods? Did you build your own house from trees you cut down with tools you made yourself from materials you gathered?


This computer you're using: did you build it from the silicon level up to the working version you're using now?

No to any of these? Then you're relying on others as it is.

I was talking in terms of income... None of those people are going to give me anything unless I have the money to get it from them. It's nobody's responsibility but mine to make sure I have the money to pay for these things...

This "you can only count on yourself" thing is nonsense. No one's ever abandoned me.

Yet.

 

[Aquitaine]

Be fully self-reliant. Unless you live as a wildman, you're relying on others.

Did you grow your own food from seeds you picked from the woods? Did you build your own house from trees you cut down with tools you made yourself from materials you gathered?

This computer you're using: did you build it from the silicon level up to the working version you're using now?

No to any of these? Then you're relying on others as it is.

This "you can only count on yourself" thing is nonsense. No one's ever abandoned me.

I think another important thing to consider is that not only do we rely on others, but we are relying on the Earth and it's natural resources.

 

[Riverwolf]

I was talking in terms of income and have been this whole time... None of those people are going to give me anything unless I have the money to get it from them. It's nobody's responsibility but mine to make sure I have the money to pay for these things...

Sucks. But you should have been more specific.

Yet.

I'm 25.

Therefore, though I'm an introvert, I'm naturally not a social cynic.

I trust them wholeheartedly.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think another important thing to consider is that not only do we rely on others, but we are relying on the Earth and it's natural resources.

Indeed.

Complete self-reliance is simply impossible.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Sucks. But you should have been more specific.

It's kind of implied now that we don't live in a society of farmers and hunters. What really sucks is that people expect these things to be handed to them as if they deserve them...

I'm 25.

Therefore, though I'm an introvert, I'm naturally not a social cynic.

I trust them wholeheartedly.

I don't see what your age has to do with anything, unless you're implying that younger people are more naive. I'm younger than you, but have accepted the reality that it's stupid to trust anyone entirely. At some point, somebody will screw you over, and you should always be prepared to handle a situation on your own.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Indeed.

Complete self-reliance is simply impossible.

You take everything to the most literal extreme...

 

[Riverwolf]

It's kind of implied now that we don't live in a society of farmers and hunters. What really sucks is that people expect these things to be handed to them as if they deserve them...

Well, that's part of being a social species; we help each other. Whether we "deserve" it or not is irrelevant.

I don't see what your age has to do with anything, unless you're implying that younger people are more naive.

It's a psychological thing. I'm not saying anything about you in particular since I don't know your unique situation, but children who grow up with negligent parents tend to be less trusting of the world and of people than those who don't.

I'm younger than you, but have accepted the reality that it's stupid to trust anyone entirely. At some point, somebody will screw you over, and you should always be prepared to handle a situation on your own.

None of the ones I've placed my trust in will do that, and I'm not interacting with anyone who would.

 

[Riverwolf]

You take everything to the most literal extreme...

"Everything"? Well, I am an aspie.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Well, that's part of being a social species; we help each other. Whether we "deserve" it or not is irrelevant.

Entitlement has nothing to do with being social. We help who we choose to help; people who have done nothing for me sure as hell aren't getting any help from me, nor do I have any sort of obligation to help them.

It's a psychological thing. I'm not saying anything about you in particular since I don't know your unique situation, but children who grow up with negligent parents tend to be less trusting of the world and of people than those who don't.

Has nothing to do with my parents. You just learn from being out in the world that people aren't as trustworthy as you would like to think they are.

None of the ones I've placed my trust in will do that, and I'm not interacting with anyone who would.

No way to know for sure. Just saying, you should stay on your toes. Blind trust kills.

 

[Revoltingest]

Complete self-reliance is simply impossible.

By another definition of "self-reliance" it is entirely possible, ie, that one may earn or produce all that one needs to get by using voluntary relationships with others (eg, trade, barter, buy, sell). To not depend upon charity or coercion to get by is to be self-reliant.

 

[Riverwolf]

Entitlement has nothing to do with being social. We help who we choose to help; people who have done nothing for me sure as hell aren't getting any help from me, nor do I have any sort of obligation to help them.

Well, I'm going to help those in need, anyway. Don't care about "deserved" help, or "they must help me."

Too corporate.

Has nothing to do with my parents. You just learn from being out in the world that people aren't as trustworthy as you would like to think they are.

Which is why I pointed out that I wasn't talking about YOU specifically.

Truth of the matter is that once you've really gotten to know someone, you can absolutely trust them to do specific things, such as help without thought of reward for some, or others demanding some form of compensation.

I don't place my trust in random people off the street. I'm actually a bit people-phobic. But once you're in my circle of trust(which is not easy) it's for life.

No way to know for sure. Just saying, you should stay on your toes. Blind trust kills.

As does lack of trust, especially in my case.

If my absolute trust in my friends and family will kill me, then let me die.

 

[Riverwolf]

By another definition of "self-reliance" it is entirely possible, ie, that one may earn or produce all that one needs to get by using voluntary relationships with others (eg, trade, barter, buy, sell). To not depend upon charity or coercion to get by is to be self-reliant.

Not true self-reliance. Self-reliance in terms of the strict definitions of the words means having nothing that came from someone else.

Even with barter, trade, etc.; you're relying on them to give you something of equal worth to what you paid, and that it'll work at all.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

By another definition of "self-reliance" it is entirely possible, ie, that one may earn or produce all that one needs to get by using voluntary relationships with others (eg, trade, barter, buy, sell). To not depend upon charity or coercion to get by is to be self-reliant.

:yes::yes:

 

[Revoltingest]

Not true self-reliance. Self-reliance in terms of the strict definitions of the words means having nothing that came from someone else.

That is to select a single definition, & declare the others invalid.
One may not unilaterally narrowly redefine words.

Even with barter, trade, etc.; you're relying on them to give you something of equal worth to what you paid, and that it'll work at all.

This still allows "self reliance", since one provides something of equal value to others. This is a commonly used definition (not the only one, of course) of the phrase. And this is what is typically meant in a political or economic sense, since no one does things like make their own cel phones, ie, mine the ores, process the materials, design the chips, make the chips, build the phone, etc, etc. Your strict & narrow definition has little meaning out side of hermit mountain men who reject modern tools & conveniences. None of them post here.

 

[godnotgod]

Actually, this is how I view America:

The "hero" image means absolutely nothing to me, or most of the people I know. It's more about what we can do for ourselves. Saving the world is a complete non-issue, and many Americans are against the whole "world police" concept.

Ah, now you add the real modus operandi behind the facade and rationale of the Hero Myth, except that you need to expand that a little more to include the rest of the world. 'What we can do for ourselves' translates at some point to 'what we can get for ourselves'. Once the markets have been exploited locally, one must expand outward to the rest of the world. We must 'protect our national interests', you know. So paint the Robber Baron as a Friend and Protector, and package it to make it look like a gift. Enter the Trojan Horse.