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What are atheists' objections, if any, to pagan religions and its followers? (Anyone can reply)
- Thread starter PoetPhilosopher
- Start date
Heyo
Veteran Member
So, a Free Flyer, eh?
About half of neo Pagans I know are Free Flyers, some with a brief experience with Wicca. The other half are Asatru.
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
Hmmm, well, you might be able to call me that, I guess.
One thing I like about Wicca, is I feel it promotes femininity in a positive way.
The way I now interpret the gods though, is I feel there are just many (more than just the Wicca gods), but that none of them are too overly powerful. So I now kind of view gods as mildly to moderately powerful (to an extent), enlightened spirits. Maybe like some picture angels. And if there was ever a god that "helped a little" with setting the universe into motion, I would think it wouldn't be a single god, or even two or three, doing it, but some sort of weird group effort. To reach that kind of power and ability.
So I take the view as well, then, that the issue with the overall lack of divine intervention isn't because of a careless god, but because the gods really aren't super duper powerful.
Heyo
Veteran Member
There have been dogmatic and dictatorial Pagan religions (Greek and Roman for example). There have been Pagans with human sacrifices and bat**** crazy beliefs (Inca). So, historically they haven't been much different from Abrahamic religions.
Theoretically and theologically polytheist religions are less likely to support a hierarchical society with a dictator at the top the same way a monotheist religion does.
But I guess you are mostly talking neo Pagans, right?
The neo Pagans I know personally are cool. They are secularists, don't proselytise, are mostly OK with science (though they have their portion of woo) and can even laugh about themselves (see Oh My Gods). They know that believes are totally made up because theirs are and they don't claim Truth™. In fact, there is nothing to debate with them.
Heyo
Veteran Member
I don't think atheists are atheists because it makes them happy. In fact, most of us would take the red pill fully knowing it would lead to less happiness.
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
Well, I make happiness a part of choosing my beliefs and factor it in. The thing is, I don't really understand the "pursuit of correctness" I seem to come across sometimes. Sure there are some things, like one's beliefs on medicine and vaccines, that can be dangerous to believe incorrectly about. But still there are others, like whether Greedo or Han Solo shot first, that are much more gray, and people can have their own opinions on.
But there are a few people I have talked to on here before, where they made it seem like they were suggesting about themselves, "I must have all correct beliefs or bad things will happen", and I just didn't really understand that.
It just sounds like this atheist friend I once hung out with. I could tell him a joke, and he would well understand it was a joke, maybe even laugh at it, but he had about 10 questions he had to ask in order to make sure that the joke was realistically portrayed and the descriptions in the joke worked together well, and the way he talked about it, it almost sounded like he was scared to be wrong about anything.
Heyo
Veteran Member
"I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible." - Matt Dillahunty
And if I can't know the truth value of a statement I have to live with the uncertainty. I think that is the main difference between an Agnostic and a believer. You dislike uncertainty more than I dislike believing false things.
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
You may be right.
Ella S.
Well-Known Member
I am aware that there is a great deal of variety within Paganism, so providing a critique that applies universally to Paganism is probably not going to happen. There are trends within Paganism that I oppose.
Many Pagans genuinely believe that they can perform some form of magic or divination, or that they can communicate with supernatural entities like spirits or gods. I think that none of that is true and I weep for humanity to see these ancient superstitions resurrected from their graves when the Western world thought we had finally progressed passed them.
The worst offenders of this are the eclectic Pagans, who are often too willing to make up whatever they want as long as it feels right to them, and the Wiccans whose religion was made up by Gardner based on the wild speculations of Margaret Murray. I've seen both camps espouse anti-psychiatry sentiment, promote fraudulent medical practices, engage in pseudo-historical rhetoric, and even worsen the detrimental effects of magical thinking and apophenia in those predisposed to it. It can be outright dangerous.
There's also a great deal of tribalism within Paganism, even elevating to the point of forming nationalistic and sometimes outright racist groups, which I think should be expected. Ancient Pagan religions were fairly particular to specific ethnic communities and, at least for hardcore Reconstructionists, often include close ties with the land those groups lived in. I find this distasteful.
I also find it annoying that Pagans constantly involve themselves in skeptic communities and are often allowed to play apologetics for Paganism virtually unchallenged, simply because they aren't seen as being "as big of a threat as Christianity and Islam." Yeah, okay, Paganism isn't a Big Five world religion, but neither is Scientology and yet we can still condemn its falsities and dangerous practices.
Many Pagans genuinely believe that they can perform some form of magic or divination, or that they can communicate with supernatural entities like spirits or gods. I think that none of that is true and I weep for humanity to see these ancient superstitions resurrected from their graves when the Western world thought we had finally progressed passed them.
The worst offenders of this are the eclectic Pagans, who are often too willing to make up whatever they want as long as it feels right to them, and the Wiccans whose religion was made up by Gardner based on the wild speculations of Margaret Murray. I've seen both camps espouse anti-psychiatry sentiment, promote fraudulent medical practices, engage in pseudo-historical rhetoric, and even worsen the detrimental effects of magical thinking and apophenia in those predisposed to it. It can be outright dangerous.
There's also a great deal of tribalism within Paganism, even elevating to the point of forming nationalistic and sometimes outright racist groups, which I think should be expected. Ancient Pagan religions were fairly particular to specific ethnic communities and, at least for hardcore Reconstructionists, often include close ties with the land those groups lived in. I find this distasteful.
I also find it annoying that Pagans constantly involve themselves in skeptic communities and are often allowed to play apologetics for Paganism virtually unchallenged, simply because they aren't seen as being "as big of a threat as Christianity and Islam." Yeah, okay, Paganism isn't a Big Five world religion, but neither is Scientology and yet we can still condemn its falsities and dangerous practices.
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
I'm surprised anyone considered that we might be going past them, considering even Christians seem to implement forms of the occult these days.
I was under the impression it was more New Agers that engaged in pseudohistorical rhetoric. Though a person can be both pagan and New Age. Or be pagan and take on New Age beliefs. I mean, I do.
Things like faith healing can get weird. I'd say a lot of self-proclaimed faith healers are fake. But there are a few, where I couldn't put my finger on what it was, but they just seemed "interesting", intellectual, wise, and different, and not in a "wolves in sheep's clothing" way (whether or not they were misled is another thing).
Some things about it could be. But it could also be dangerous to insist everyone stop magical thinking, and not provide an alternative to it for them to express themselves, or another area where they can work things out for themselves, without involving the wider public. Life is full of unexplained things, etc, and people tend to want to talk about them. Sure, some beliefs may be bad for one's mental health, but still others, like spiritual thinking in general, does seem to make some people happier from what I can tell. Including me.
Yeah, I agree that that much is weird. Most psychiatrists worth their weight can tend to tell a deeply religious person from a schizophrenic, I think. So not sure what exactly that fear is rooted in - whether real life situations or not. Maybe it's just a form of White Coat Syndrome.
Secret Chief
Degrow!
Maybe you're a syncretist?
Secret Chief
Degrow!
I took both pills. I don't recommend it.
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
I seem to recall where @SalixIncendium , who is Hindu, took a religious quiz and posted the results, and got some unusual results that had mostly nothing to do with Hinduism. Unless I'm remembering wrong, or am thinking of a different member.
Secret Chief
Degrow!
Sounds like he was actually an android.
Secret Chief
Degrow!
He quite possibly did. I typically get the "wrong" answer on such quizzes; more a comment on the quiz than on the person.
Secret Chief
Degrow!
Personally I wouldn't get hung up on that, but then I have a pretty low opinion of psychiatry.
Secret Chief
Degrow!
Was it the mouse that first attracted your cats?
Heyo
Veteran Member
No, it were all the funny cat videos they were trying to comment on.
They're fine with me, as are the Dharmics. My objection is limited to the organized, politicized Abrahamic monotheists. What I've learned from the polytheists is that they're not really too different from atheistic humanists in their values and behaviors apart from giving names and personalities to various aspects of nature. But as long as they aren't expecting those deities to do anything or give them commandments or tell them how others should live or tell them who is an abomination to them, I see no harm.