What are the most important laws of life and existence?

[Deeje]

To act like no victories have been won just because an idealistic state of uber peace has not yet been achieved is to ignore real historic wins and under values the sacrifices made to achieve it.

So anything resembling peace may be viewed as good enough then? Genuine peace does not mean the absence of war.
The "peace" achieved by humans is merely the temporary absence of war. Another one will be along shortly.

In Australia the right for aborigines to vote was won by good people. People who struggled to redress historical wrongs done and are still struggling for the rights of minoritys.

I belong to a minority so I understand the issues. Did giving aboriginals the right to vote solve their problems? Are they better off? The best thing anyone has ever done for the aboriginal people was to say "SORRY". Its all some have ever wanted.....an acknowledgement that white Australians gave a damn about what they did to these native Australians.....but tell me what country the British invaded that didn't include treating the indigenous people as some kind of inferior sub-humans?
Where did they get their white supremacist attitudes?

Australia has a relative degree of peace - a peace which would quickly fall apart if we didn’t have police forces to ensure compliance to the rules of secular society.

Don't look now but the police can barely cope with the ones who want to take peace away from others. The kinds of crimes committed today, show us that Australia is no different when it comes to poor government programs for young offenders and inept management of crime and violence. Drugs and alcohol are a good part of the problem. Since when have the police been able to ensure compliance to the rules of secular society?

The real slight of hand in all this is that the JW church doesn’t have Jesus or any kind of Prophet sitting at the top receiving revelation from God - it is ruled by fallible men who are just as capable of corruption as the members of any political party are.

You think someone claiming to be a prophet who is receiving revelations from God is believable? Take a tour of the psyche wards....you will find many such people....some of them even claim to be Christ returned.
And you are wrong.....Jesus is our leader. His teaching form the very basis for everything we believe.

Thus even if we were to tire of society run by human hands the JWs are not providing us with a genuine alternative - their leaders are just as human as the rest of us.

But of course Bahá'u'lláh wasn't human just like the rest of us...?

If this is the burial place of the second "Christ" to come into the world.....who died again...

Can I ask where is the burial place of the first one?

It is not JW's who provide an alternative to human rulership.....it is God through the Kingdom that he will bring to this earth under the leadership of his King, Jesus Christ. We are active advocates of this Kingdom. That is not only a genuine alternative, we believe it will soon be the only alternative.

 

[sojourner]

Having the capacity is not the issue....we may even have a collective will to make things better for all....but we are always at the mercy of the greedy few who thwart all efforts to make things better. In all of man's existence, he has never been able to govern himself successfully. It is not in his make-up to rule himself or others....God designed mankind to be ruled by him....but man's rejection of God's rulership has only resulted in failure after failure. He has allowed humans to experience for themselves, the folly of trying to do things successfully without him.

I guess you didn’t fully read my post. It is precisely because we are made in God’s image that the Spirit abides in us and gives us the capacity for governance. That does constitute “God’s rule over us.”

If you think humans have the capacity to solve their own problems then think again....man will never solve the problem because sinful man IS the problem.

And I believe that Jesus called sinful people into community form the body of Christ, and it is that body that listens to Spirit and discerns the good God has set in place for us.

Don't look now but for the majority alive today, it is wasted. They don't believe it and have no appreciation for why Christ came to die for us. The benefits of his sacrifice are conditional.....if we reject them, then they don't apply to us...we are not saved.

I’m not so ready to write everyone off. Yours is a position of entitlement. It’s easy to write off “them” because you’re the one whose system has set you up for success. Jesus didn’t come to the religious authorities — those who were “in” the system of power. Jesus came to the outcast, to the diseased — the “dirty.” Even though they largely didn’t understand them, he taught them, blessed them, and healed them anyway. And he saved them anyway.

God’s love is not conditional. God’s welcome is wide and God’s mercy is boundless. Like the father of the prodigal, God will wait for us until we return home.

God sending his Christ into the world was not to solve the problems of humanity, but to provide the basis for some (a relative "few" in fact) to survive through the coming "great tribulation".

Again, that’s elitist, entitled thinking. God so loved the world — not the “amazing few.”

Nothing else makes sense to us....certainly not the view of "Christianity" that you present.

I’m sorry the good news doesn’t make sense to you. I’m sorry you can’t see in the gathered community the body of Christ. I’m sorry you you appear to reject the stone the Builder has selected as the cornerstone.

 

[sojourner]

Do you think that the Creator intended for life to "a desperate plight to survive"?

No, I believe the Creator designed us in the Creator’s own image of light. Desperation is an illusion. We aren’t meant to survive; we are meant to live. Abundantly. Jesus came to remind us of that truth.

If he is the loving God he claims to be, why are they struggling?

Because they sleep in a nightmare. They need to to dream a new reality and vision what God intended for them, just as “old men see visions, and young men dream dreams.”

If this was not his intention, then why is it so, when it feels so wrong?

Because part of God’s image is agency, with which we are also endowed. The “fall” (if the creation myth is actually exegeted) was a “fall” into wisdom, because that’s what the serpent represents. And “falling into wisdom” is a process — not an event. That process continues, as we shall continue. In the meantime, we have enlightened teachers to help us along.

 

[sojourner]

If we take the Bible's scenario as real (which I have no reason not to) then going back to the beginning, we should see what happened to derail the Creator's first purpose. A derailment is fixable....engine and carriages can be put back on mended tracks....and the people who fixed the problem should be able to see what went wrong and take measures to ensure that it doesn't happen again....right?

I believe that the Creator is in the process of fixing the derailment of humankind so that we never end up in a mess like this ever again

I don’t believe God causes train wrecks just to “make a point.” But I do believe that whenever change occurs, chaos happens. You have to break down muscle tissue in order to grow muscle tissue.

the Creator has a purpose to our being, and is allowing us to experience what it means to abuse the free will he gave us. We hate it when someone takes away our freedom...we hate it even more when other abuse their freedom and it impacts negatively on us. This is why we are still in existence....our object lesson is not quite complete....but I believe its getting very close

Again, I don’t believe for one second that any of this is “intended” by God. God isn’t a helicopter mom. God allows us the space we need to make our own mistakes. It’s the only way we grow.

It is true that democracy is an ideal in principle, but it only works when applied to all members of society. If the "haves" are gaining all the wealth and not sharing it, then the "have nots" will continue to sit at a distance on their cold park benches and envy them their luxuries...you know, like a warm bed and some decent food. How many of the populations of so many democracies don't know where their next meal is coming from...or where they will sleep tonight?

My God, there’s hope for you yet!

Power corrupts humans for the very reason that we were never meant to exercise power over others. What leader of any nation knows what its like to be poor and have no hope of their situation getting any better? Hunger and homelessness could be overcome if we just shared what we have with others...and teach them how to be self sufficient. We have lost that ability in this day and age and become dependent upon others to provide all of life's necessities.....dependency creates slaves, but the slaves are unaware that they are incarcerated in a system that 'owns' them....it owns their time and their energy and it takes a great deal of their earnings just to live. Yet they believe that they are "free". Its an illusion

You’re on a decent roll here.

Having brought the object lesson to an end, humans will never be able to rebel against the Sovereignty of the Creator, ever again

...Aaaaaaand the progress comes to a crashing halt and splatters all over the bandwidth...

Yes....but we have to see human rulership for what it is.....a total failure.
Human imperfection (sin) won't allow it to work....corruption always ruins it.

Rulership? Yes. Self-determination? No. Rulership is an illusion. Cooperation is reality.

Peace is not just the absence of war.....true peace is a condition of the heart. It comes from a feeling of security and we already know that humans are justifiably incapable of trusting others, so "peace" can be as transient as the next dictators threat to use nuclear weapons...or the next terrorist bombing or mass shooting. Where there is no trust...there can be no love. We need both of these things to be truly happy.

Security is a nightmare from which we must awaken. Security can never be attained. The only security we can really have is the security of knowing that we live within God.

What "way of life" have humans ever had that actually delivered what we want and need to feel secure? Can you name a time in human history when we ever got it right?

Sure! Every time I’m in deep prayer and have the knowing who and whose I am. Everyone has the capability of doing that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What are the best wisdoms for living this life?
What creates peace? prosperity? freedom?
Do you believe in human rights for all?
What is in the best interests of every individual to live and do?
What are the most important things?

I find the ' best wisdoms..... ' is the wisdom talked about in the book of Proverbs.
What creates peace, prosperity, freedom for starters is the Golden Rule to love others as you would love self.
What is in the ' best interest....' is the NEW commandment Jesus added to the Golden Rule - John 13:34-35.
We are Now to love others ' more ' than love self.
So, the 'most important things' is to have that same self-sacrificing love for others that Jesus has.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I guess you didn’t fully read my post. It is precisely because we are made in God’s image that the Spirit abides in us and gives us the capacity for governance.

Not according to the Scriptures.
Jeremiah 10:23.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Again, that’s elitist, entitled thinking. God so loved the world — not the “amazing few.”

Yes, for those ‘having faith in Jesus’. — John 3:16
Grief, you make me laugh! Your learning is lacking.

Don’t you know about the “narrow gate” vs. the “broad road”?
— Matthew 7:13.

— 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

 

[sojourner]

Not according to the Scriptures.
Jeremiah 10:23.

I guess YOU didn’t read the post either...

 

[sojourner]

Yes, for those ‘having faith in Jesus’. — John 3:16
Grief, you make me laugh! Your learning is lacking.

Don’t you know about the “narrow gate” vs. the “broad road”?
— Matthew 7:13.

— 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

“Narrow gate” doesn’t mean that all eventually won’t get in. When do you suppose the “cut-off” date is for “having faith in Jesus?” Apparently, y’all were wrong about 1874 and 1914, so your dating expertise cant be all that advanced...

 

[Deeje]

I guess you didn’t fully read my post. It is precisely because we are made in God’s image that the Spirit abides in us and gives us the capacity for governance. That does constitute “God’s rule over us.”

Oh dear...now we can't read.
You take twisting scripture to a whole new level. You said..."It is precisely because we are made in God’s image that the Spirit abides in us and gives us the capacity for governance."....can you tell me where I would find that in Jesus' teachings?...you know the ones where he tells us to be "no part of this world" because his Kingdom in nothing to do with this world, ruled by the devil (1 John 5:19; John 18:36)

And I believe that Jesus called sinful people into community form the body of Christ, and it is that body that listens to Spirit and discerns the good God has set in place for us.

He was sent to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"...but why? These sheep had been so sadly neglected that they had become lost, not to God, but to their shepherds who didn't give two hoots about them. Jesus gave them an opportunity to take a bath and come into the pen he had set up for them with good food and plenty to drink....not all would avail themselves of the opportunity however. There were conditions of entry and some did not like the restrictions...just as many don't, today. Not all humanity is redeemed or even redeemable....they have to meet the criteria God has set for them. Christ came to save sinners, but not to save those who wanted to keep right on sinning.

Does "go and sin no more" ring any bells?

I’m not so ready to write everyone off. Yours is a position of entitlement. It’s easy to write off “them” because you’re the one whose system has set you up for success.

And the system that YOU have set up, what does that do for people? Does it give them the same false sense of security that you appear to have? A "sin all you want...Jesus loves everybody" mentality? Is that what you think Jesus was teaching? How foolish!

Jesus didn’t come to the religious authorities — those who were “in” the system of power. Jesus came to the outcast, to the diseased — the “dirty.” Even though they largely didn’t understand them, he taught them, blessed them, and healed them anyway. And he saved them anyway.

He healed everyone who came to listen to him...he fed thousands on a couple of occasions, and then when they came back he asked if they had only come for another free meal? His message only appealed to those whose motive was unselfish. They came for the spiritual food and were blessed. Those who wanted to remain in their filth gained very little. Why do you think his apostles had to go to the Gentile nations to make up the numbers of those who would rule with Jesus in his Kingdom? Those numbers should have been all Jews....but not enough of them accepted him as Messiah.

God’s love is not conditional. God’s welcome is wide and God’s mercy is boundless. Like the father of the prodigal, God will wait for us until we return home.

I never said that God's love is conditional...I said that the benefits of Christ's sacrifice are conditional. Just as God's covenants with Israel were conditional, we too have to meet certain conditions in order for God to apply the benefits of Christ's ransom to us. God's justice is tempered with mercy...but only if it is merited. His forgiveness is unbounded, but only if we are truly repentant. The Father has patience, but as he demonstrated with Israel, it has its limits when people refuse to obey his clear directives.

Again, that’s elitist, entitled thinking. God so loved the world — not the “amazing few.”

Look at the second part of that verse.....we only ever see the first part highlighted....."For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (NASB)

Eternal life is contrasted with eternal death. For one to "perish" means to be completely destroyed....good for nothing.

I’m sorry the good news doesn’t make sense to you. I’m sorry you can’t see in the gathered community the body of Christ. I’m sorry you you appear to reject the stone the Builder has selected as the cornerstone.

What you have IMO, is not 'good news'.....it is fake news. And the things you post bear no resemblance to anything that Jesus taught. He knows who belongs to him...so we should just let him carry out his work through his 'faithful slave' because he appointed 'him' to feed his entire household, their food at the proper time. (Matthew 24:45)

We are to preach the good news of the kingdom in every nation right up to "the end". (Matthew 24:14) And since this is a global work, it cannot be carried out by a local church with a rogue pastor.

“Narrow gate” doesn’t mean that all eventually won’t get in. When do you suppose the “cut-off” date is for “having faith in Jesus?”

LOL....There are two roads here....one of them has a gate whereby people can exit one road to gain entry to the other. Only a "few" will enter, and then stay on what is a cramped and difficult road. It is "narrow" for a reason. The "many" however are carelessly zooming along on a superhighway with no speed limit and no rules. The destination is apparently unclear to them.....Jesus says its a dead end. (Matthew 7:13-14)

What is the cut-off date?...we don't have one....but Jesus does and really...that's all that matters. We were told to keep preaching about God's kingdom till "the end" and that's exactly what we have done, and will continue to do.

 

[sojourner]

You take twisting scripture to a whole new level. You said..."It is precisely because we are made in God’s image that the Spirit abides in us and gives us the capacity for governance."....can you tell me where I would find that in Jesus' teachings?

Riiiiight... You find that in Genesis, when God blew God’s Spirit into the human beings.

There were conditions of entry

Pretty easy conditions — so easy as to be nearly impossible to fall short.

Not all humanity is redeemed or even redeemable

Fortunately, I don’t hold such a dismal view of humanity.

Christ came to save sinners, but not to save those who wanted to keep right on sinning

Who said anything about “going right on sinning?” Sin is a relationship — not an act. those who come into right relationship are saved.

And the system that YOU have set up, what does that do for people? Does it give them the same false sense of security that you appear to have? A "sin all you want...Jesus loves everybody" mentality? Is that what you think Jesus was teaching

What does it do? It gives people an assurance of God’s love for them. Yes! Jesus loves everyone — even the religious authorities who killed him.

He healed everyone who came to listen to him...he fed thousands on a couple of occasions, and then when they came back he asked if they had only come for another free meal? His message only appealed to those whose motive was unselfish

‘K. I don’t see a problem here.

I never said that God's love is conditional...I said that the benefits of Christ's sacrifice are conditional

They’re the same thing. God’s love saves us. God’s love is unconditional.

God's justice is tempered with mercy...but only if it is merited

...Which is the same thing as “conditional.”

Look at the second part of that verse.....we only ever see the first part highlighted....."For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

I have hope that, in the end, all shall believe in him.

What you have IMO, is not 'good news'.....it is fake news. And the things you post bear no resemblance to anything that Jesus taught

Shows what you know.

And since this is a global work, it cannot be carried out by a local church with a rogue pastor

Sure it can! Jesus was a “rogue pastor.” I’m in GREAT company to do what he calls me to do.

What is the cut-off date?...we don't have one....but Jesus does and really...that's all that matters

Nah. Read the parable of the prodigal. At no point did the father look at his watch, shake his head, close and lock the door, and stop waiting for his child.

Glad you’ve found some religious ... something, where you can pretend to be The Church Lady. Meanwhile, the rest of us will get about the business of not doing “pretend Christianity.”

 

[Deeje]

Riiiiight... You find that in Genesis, when God blew God’s Spirit into the human beings.

That is not what I asked you....where will I find that idea ("It is precisely because we are made in God’s image that the Spirit abides in us and gives us the capacity for governance.") in Jesus' teachings? There is no "capacity for governance" among humankind...we have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that we can never get it right....why? Because the minute you give someone power over others, it corrupts them. History is full of their sad and sorry efforts and it has always ended badly. I am beginning to wonder what bubble you live in...?

Pretty easy conditions — so easy as to be nearly impossible to fall short.

So Jesus declaring that the sheep will get life and the goats will end up in the same place that God has prepared for the devil and his angels was just empty talk?....he didn't really mean any of it...? The lake of fire is just a warm spa where the righteous and the wicked freely mingle? How chummy.

Fortunately, I don’t hold such a dismal view of humanity.

I don't hold a dismal view of humanity either...just the ones who pretend that there is no personal responsibility or accountability attached to the application of Christ's sacrifice. Its just a free gift to all, with no need of repentance.....including the ones who break God's laws...especially the ones on morality? You mean there is no punishment for rejecting the only means that God has offered us in order to be saved? SMH

Who said anything about “going right on sinning?” Sin is a relationship — not an act. those who come into right relationship are saved.

"Sin is a relationship"?? with whom? The devil? The last time I looked, sin was an act, precipitated by thoughts and carried out by those weak in spirit. Murder is an act...rape is an act....theft is an act...adultery is an act....
James 1:13-15...
"Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." (NASB)

Sin brings forth death, not life......so what on earth are you talking about?

What does it do? It gives people an assurance of God’s love for them. Yes! Jesus loves everyone — even the religious authorities who killed him.

Are you serious? Jesus told the the religious authorities who killed him that they were bound for gehenna....and you think they will be in heaven?

We all have the assurance of God's love, but we don't have an assurance of life if we break God's laws unrepentantly. For the sake of the righteous, he must eliminate the wicked.

When Jesus said "Father forgive them because they do not know what they are doing" he was not talking about the Jews...he was asking God to pardon the Roman soldiers who were just carrying out their orders. The Jewish leaders responsible for his murder will remain in "gehenna" forever...never to be seen again.

Matthew 10:28...
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna". (NASB) Souls are destroyed in Gehenna.

They’re the same thing. God’s love saves us. God’s love is unconditional.

That is not what I said...you are repeating yourself. The sacrifice of Christ does not apply to unrepentant sinners. Forgiveness cannot take place unless one is repentant....to be forgiven you have to be genuinely remorseful, which means that you will never deliberately repeat the sin.

...Which is the same thing as “conditional.”

Conditional...yes. Even the first humans had conditions placed on the continuation of their lives.....it required obedience...not to a book of laws, but to one simple command....and still they blew it. They have been making excuses for themselves ever since.

I have hope that, in the end, all shall believe in him.

My old Mum used to say..."If wishes were horses then beggars would ride"....I think you have to understand the difference between wishful thinking and reality. Do we not have examples in the Bible that indicate clearly the need to obey and live...or disobey and die?
All you have to do is read Israel's history. What indicates to you that "in the end all will believe in him"....what does that even mean?

Shows what you know.

Yes, it does.

Sure it can! Jesus was a “rogue pastor.” I’m in GREAT company to do what he calls me to do.

Jesus was the son of God with great power from the holy spirit....are you Jesus?

And if the "great company" are the adoring members of your church, then I hope for their sakes that you are teaching them the truth.....their lives will be on your head....so doesn't that depend on 'who' it is that is calling you? Who called the Pharisees? Were they not claiming to be credentialed teachers of the Law? What did Jesus think of their degrees or diplomas? Who did he say was calling them?

Jesus told them...."Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:43-44 NASB)

Nah. Read the parable of the prodigal. At no point did the father look at his watch, shake his head, close and lock the door, and stop waiting for his child.

At no point did the father try to persuade the son to come home either. So what prompted the return? "He came to his senses" and realized that what he had walked away from, was way better than what he ended up with. With a contrite heart, after wasting his entire inheritance on immoral living, the son, of his own volition, came back to his father with a humble and repentant spirit, not expecting for one moment that he was entitled to anything of his former status. He would have been happy just to be a hired worker with no privileges whatsoever.

You have a unique way of interpreting scripture to suit what you want it to say, rather than taking the whole story into account.

Glad you’ve found some religious ... something, where you can pretend to be The Church Lady. Meanwhile, the rest of us will get about the business of not doing “pretend Christianity.”

I used to be a "church lady" but thankfully I removed myself from that "pretend Christianity" (Christendom is just the same disunited rot under different banners) and found the ones who actually practice what they preach.....and no one preaches like they do.

Luke 10:1-2.....
"Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. 2 And He was saying to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest."

Do the members of your church go out to preach like Jesus told us to? Like he sent his disciples out to preach? Do we still have to "beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest"? Or do we now have over eight and a half million willing volunteers already doing so. The reapers are at the ready....we believe that the world is ready for harvest any time now....God knows when to act.

Do you know what the Christian message actually is? Please tell me what God's Kingdom is and what its purpose is for the human race? Lets see what you do with that....?

 

[metis]

Fortunately, I don’t hold such a dismal view of humanity...

Yes! Jesus loves everyone — even the religious authorities who killed him.

And what you are clearly showing is just one area of many whereas the JW's are rather clearly manipulating reality to try and suit their own egos and their own ends.

As you correctly say, the Gospel is quite clear on the issue of salvation in John 3:16. But what they do is then begin to attach all sorts of additional strings to that through the use of stereotyping groups, then condemning what they stereotype, so that it becomes a we v they thingy, with the "we" (JW's) being the good guys in the white hats and all other Christian and non-Christian groups being the "they" with the black hats. As you well note, the latter is quite clearly not what Jesus taught.

And, as you're probably aware of, this is not the only area whereas the JW's play rather fast and loose, such as predicting the end of the world and then rather clearly fabricating excuses as to why it didn't happen instead of just admitting that they were wrong. Notice they never admit they're wrong. Notice that they condemn other churches and religious faiths while strutting around and pretending that they're holier-than-Thou, never admitting any culpability within their own ranks.

I lived next to two sets of JW's for decades, and all I have to say is that they were nice people but were clearly being manipulated by their leaders who would rather win others over and keep their converts in check than to actually deal with what the Gospels actually say as is written. IOW, I have no respect for the disingenuous dog & pony show that their leaders put on with the use of stereotyping, demeaning the stereotype, and then condemning all groups but themselves by saying that they're "lost causes" and "not redeemable".

Obviously, I have an opinion on their leadership and the tactics they use, but not JW's in general.

 

[sojourner]

That is not what I asked you....where will I find that idea ("It is precisely because we are made in God’s image that the Spirit abides in us and gives us the capacity for governance.") in Jesus' teachings? There is no "capacity for governance" among humankind...we have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that we can never get it right....why? Because the minute you give someone power over others, it corrupts them. History is full of their sad and sorry efforts and it has always ended badly.

Where on earth did I say that governance implied “power over others?” Im talking about self-determination. I’ve always been talking about self-determination. I don’t think you have any idea what you’re actually arguing.

So Jesus declaring that the sheep will get life and the goats will end up in the same place that God has prepared for the devil and his angels was just empty talk?....he didn't really mean any of it...?

If you don’t understand the thrust of Matthew, there’s no helping you here. It’s like trying to discuss immunology with one who still kills patients through blood letting, all the while shouting how “eeeeeviiiiil” the doctor is.

No, wait...

It’s more like someone who’s studied the texts trying to discuss them with someone Who. Has. Not. You need to study them before you use them in an argument. Your reply here is worth less than a fart in a hurricane, where argument is concerned.

I don't hold a dismal view of humanity either...just the ones who pretend that there is no personal responsibility or accountability attached to the application of Christ's sacrifice. Its just a free gift to all, with no need of repentance

Where did I ever say that there was no accountability?

"Sin is a relationship"??

Well, more like the LACK of relationship.

what on earth are you talking about?

Exactly! I can’t discuss “red” with the blind.

Are you serious? Jesus told the the religious authorities who killed him that they were bound for gehenna....and you think they will be in heaven?

Yup. I do.

We all have the assurance of God's love, but we don't have an assurance of life if we break God's laws unrepentantly

Who ever mentioned “unrepentance?” You’re completely under a misapprehension of my position, born of preconceived assumption.

When Jesus said "Father forgive them because they do not know what they are doing" he was not talking about the Jews...he was asking God to pardon the Roman soldiers who were just carrying out their orders. The Jewish leaders responsible for his murder will remain in "gehenna" forever...never to be seen again.

Do you believe God knows everything, and knows us better than we know ourselves? Do you believe God loves each of us as God’s precious children? Do you believe that God is all powerful? Do you believe that God is powerful enough to ultimately have God’s will be done?

If you answered yes to these questions, then your statement above is incongruous with your belief.

Do you believe that God, with all this love, knowledge and power, would create any of us, knowing that any would remain separated from God for ever, or would want to punish one of us for ever?

If you answered yes to to these questions, your God is a monster and not worth anyone’s time or attention.

That is not what I said...you are repeating yourself. The sacrifice of Christ does not apply to unrepentant sinners.

Again: when did I ever mention “unrepentance?”

Forgiveness cannot take place unless one is repentant

Sure it can. Read your Bible. Jesus didn’t ask for confession before he spoke to the woman at the well or healed the woman with the hemorrhage, or stopped the stoning of the prostitute.

My old Mum used to say..."If wishes were horses then beggars would ride"....I think you have to understand the difference between wishful thinking and reality.

Your old Mum is as much a cowboy “theologian” as you.

The reality is that God loves each of us unconditionally, and that God desires every person to return to God. The reality is that God will ultimately get God’s way, or else Jesus’ sacrifice was not “sufficient” and God’s power is limited.

Yes, it does

I wouldn’t be so glib and self-assured if I were you.

Jesus was the son of God with great power from the holy spirit....are you Jesus?

Jesus was a rogue scholar. Where you’re concerned, so am I.

And if the "great company" are the adoring members of your church, then I hope for their sakes that you are teaching them the truth.....their lives will be on your head....so doesn't that depend on 'who' it is that is calling you? Who called the Pharisees? Were they not claiming to be credentialed teachers of the Law? What did Jesus think of their degrees or diplomas? Who did he say was calling them?

It wasn’t their learning he despised. It was their entitlement — something you’re displaying quite loudly here.

Jesus told them...."Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word

Fortunately, some of us here are more attuned to listening than others.

At no point did the father try to persuade the son to come home either. So what prompted the return? "He came to his senses" and realized that what he had walked away from, was way better than what he ended up with. With a contrite heart, after wasting his entire inheritance on immoral living, the son, of his own volition, came back to his father with a humble and repentant spirit, not expecting for one moment that he was entitled to anything of his former status. He would have been happy just to be a hired worker with no privileges whatsoever.

Yes, but my question was: how long did the father wait for him to do that? You failed to answer that question.

You have a unique way of interpreting scripture to suit what you want it to say, rather than taking the whole story into account

You’re projecting.

I used to be a "church lady" but thankfully I removed myself from that "pretend Christianity"

And yet you still verbally smirk and, with all mock-superiority say, “Weeelll... Idn’t that SPECIAL?!”

Do the members of your church go out to preach like Jesus told us to?

Of course. There are at least 7000, just in my own small denomination who are specially TRAINED and ordained to do that very thing.

Do you know what the Christian message actually is?

Srrsly?

 

[sojourner]

And what you are clearly showing is just one area of many whereas the JW's are rather clearly manipulating reality to try and suit their own egos and their own ends.

As you correctly say, the Gospel is quite clear on the issue of salvation in John 3:16. But what they do is then begin to attach all sorts of additional strings to that through the use of stereotyping groups, then condemning what they stereotype, so that it becomes a we v they thingy, with the "we" (JW's) being the good guys in the white hats and all other Christian and non-Christian groups being the "they" with the black hats. As you well note, the latter is quite clearly not what Jesus taught.

And, as you're probably aware of, this is not the only area whereas the JW's play rather fast and loose, such as predicting the end of the world and then rather clearly fabricating excuses as to why it didn't happen instead of just admitting that they were wrong. Notice they never admit they're wrong. Notice that they condemn other churches and religious faiths while strutting around and pretending that they're holier-than-Thou, never admitting any culpability within their own ranks.

I lived next to two sets of JW's for decades, and all I have to say is that they were nice people but were clearly being manipulated by their leaders who would rather win others over and keep their converts in check than to actually deal with what the Gospels actually say as is written. IOW, I have no respect for the disingenuous dog & pony show that their leaders put on with the use of stereotyping, demeaning the stereotype, and then condemning all groups but themselves by saying that they're "lost causes" and "not redeemable".

Obviously, I have an opinion on their leadership and the tactics they use, but not JW's in general.

Thank you for pointing out the pathology succinctly. In my experience, they do that by claiming that scholarship is bad, i.e., we’ve all been misled, and everything we know is wrong. And they have nothing to back up their assertions, other than the claim that “the spirit gives them understanding.” It’s called moving the goalposts.

 

[12jtartar]

What are the best wisdoms for living this life?

What creates peace? prosperity? freedom?

Do you believe in human rights for all?

What is in the best interests of every individual to live and do?

What are the most important things?

osgart,
Deeje gave about as good an answer as there is. I would like to add a little to see what you think.
God gave the Jews 613 Laws in the Mosaic Law Covenant. These laws were for His Chosen People. God wrote all those laws for their good. God is not arbitrary, making laws just because He has the power and the right, but His laws are for the good of the people they were meant for, and good for all others of all nations that would follow them, Deuteronomy 10:12,13, Isaiah 48:17-19.
In the Christian Greek Scriptures, we really come to appreciate tha love that The Almighty God has for mankind. God was even willing to give the life of His Unique son, so that whoever would believe on him would not perish, meaning lost forever, but have everlasting life.
So, realizing what God thinks of His great creation, we come to believe that what taught the Jews in the Mosaic Law Covenant, would be the best things a person can do, in this life, to live a happy, satisfying life.
When a Jewish man, well versed in the Law as Jesus, what was the greatest commandment in the Law. Jesus said you must love your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. That is the greatest Law, of course this was Jesus speaking so we know that loving God means loving Jesus also. Jesus the said the second Law was like that one, You should love your neighbor as yourself. Notice also, that Jesus said the whole Law hangs on these. Being close to the Almighty God and His Son will bring any person the greatest happiness. Romans 13:8-10, These Laws, along with The Golden Rule, Matthew 7:12. Doing these things we will be storing up treasure in heaven, and where you treasure is, there will be your heart also. No happier life can be had!!! Acts 20:35. Agape!!!

 

[Deeje]

Where on earth did I say that governance implied “power over others?” Im talking about self-determination. I’ve always been talking about self-determination. I don’t think you have any idea what you’re actually arguing.

Perhaps it would help if you made your position clearer. From what you have posted, who would know?

If you don’t understand the thrust of Matthew, there’s no helping you here. It’s like trying to discuss immunology with one who still kills patients through blood letting, all the while shouting how “eeeeeviiiiil” the doctor is.

No, wait...

It’s more like someone who’s studied the texts trying to discuss them with someone Who. Has. Not. You need to study them before you use them in an argument. Your reply here is worth less than a fart in a hurricane, where argument is concerned.

Are you referring to Christendom's "scholarship" again? What did Jesus call the Pharisees? "The blind leading the blind"...history repeats because human nature does not change. Power corrupts and it sometimes corrupts so thoroughly that it alters perceptions of whole nations without them being aware of the snow job.

Where did I ever say that there was no accountability?

Obviously you have not made your position clear on that subject either.

Well, more like the LACK of relationship.

Moving the goal posts again?

Exactly! I can’t discuss “red” with the blind.

I can't discuss red with someone who is color blind either. That is seeing without seeing. Eyes open mind closed. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Who ever mentioned “unrepentance?” You’re completely under a misapprehension of my position, born of preconceived assumption

Again your posts are suggesting that there is no accountability. Perhaps you could be more specific.

Do you believe God knows everything, and knows us better than we know ourselves? Do you believe God loves each of us as God’s precious children? Do you believe that God is all powerful? Do you believe that God is powerful enough to ultimately have God’s will be done?

If you answered yes to these questions, then your statement above is incongruous with your belief.

I can answer "yes" to all of the above...but there is no incongruity. God loves his obedient children and the very reason why he gave us free will was so that our own choices would determine our future...not his.

God has demonstrated in the past how he feels when his "children" disobey him.....none of that indicates to me that he is some mamby-pamby wimp who winks at disobedience. I can recall some very serious incidents where he demonstrated his displeasure with his "children". The flood of Noah's day...Sodom and Gomorrah...the incident involving Korah's rebellion....the results of worshipping the copper serpent....the ones who fell to worshipping the golden calf.....there are many more.

John 3:16 is completely ignored..."For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

If we don't want to "perish", we had better pull our socks up. What is with this very selective view of scripture you have?

Do you believe that God, with all this love, knowledge and power, would create any of us, knowing that any would remain separated from God for ever, or would want to punish one of us for ever?

If you answered yes to to these questions, your God is a monster and not worth anyone’s time or attention.

My God is a dictator....but a loving and benevolent one. He created man, but he did not create us as individuals. We are the random product of our parent's gene pool and when we are born, we are a blank canvas. Our genetics and environment can mold who we become as adults, but our choices regarding our worship are ours to make. Those choices determine whether we are suitable as citizens of God's kingdom......or not. God has already told us what the end results are for those who aren't interested in doing the will of God.

Sure it can. Read your Bible. Jesus didn’t ask for confession before he spoke to the woman at the well or healed the woman with the hemorrhage, or stopped the stoning of the prostitute.

Did he ask for confession? Or did he simply give the woman at the well some proof of who he was by recounting her marital status? She was the first person to whom he revealed his status as Messiah...and she wasn't even Jewish. The woman with the flow of blood was humble and fully aware that her condition made her "unclean" according to the law. She broke God's law just being there, but Jesus healed her without condemnation. He felt power go out of him, drawn by this woman's faith....he didn't ask who it was that touched him so that she had to confess, but to commend her for her faith.

You see things through your own lens and that's OK.....but one thing is certain...we can't both be right. Nor can all the denominations in Christendom be right. Those not "doing the will of the Father" will be completely rejected by Jesus as "goats". Their destination is already written for all to see. Please tell me what "gehenna" is in your understanding.

The reality is that God loves each of us unconditionally, and that God desires every person to return to God. The reality is that God will ultimately get God’s way, or else Jesus’ sacrifice was not “sufficient” and God’s power is limited.

The ransom sacrifice of Jesus applies to all who merit it. It applies to all, but many are not one bit interested in having restrictions and rules in order to qualify for it. God will not force himself on anyone. He does not demand that we love him or that we obey him....but for those who will partake of his plans for the future, there is criteria to meet. Those not meeting it will have no place there.

I wouldn’t be so glib and self-assured if I were you.

Pot...meet kettle.

Jesus was a rogue scholar. Where you’re concerned, so am I.

It isn't me you need to convince. Satan was a rogue too...remember?

It wasn’t their learning he despised. It was their entitlement — something you’re displaying quite loudly here.

Oh, so it wasn't their teachings that he constantly castigated them for?

Matthew 23:13-15....."But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell [gehenna] as yourselves."

Matthew 16:6; 12...."Jesus said to them, “Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”....."Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees."

Seems pretty clear to me. It is what they taught that separated people from Jehovah, making them liable to the same punishment. So again...what is "gehenna" that Jesus spoke of?

Fortunately, some of us here are more attuned to listening than others.

Now that is just downright funny....

Yes, but my question was: how long did the father wait for him to do that? You failed to answer that question.

I don't recall the father putting a time limit of his son's return....but is that the main thrust of what this parable is all about? Again you take some minor point and turn it into a major factor. This is a parable....its not about real people, its a teaching tool....there's a lesson.....one that you are apparently missing if you think its about time limits.

Of course. There are at least 7000, just in my own small denomination who are specially TRAINED and ordained to do that very thing.

Please tell us the name of this church so that I research your beliefs and practices. 7000 you say? All in one area or country?

Srrsly?

Oh yes....because this is the whole crux of the Christian message....tell me what the Kingdom of God is and what it will do for humanity......we need a concise explanation of what this "good news" message is, as you would teach it to others. How does the Lord's prayer tie in when we ask for God's kingdom to "come" and for his will to "be done on earth as it is in heaven"? How does Daniel 2:44 fit into this scenario? Please enlighten us.

 

[sojourner]

Perhaps it would help if you made your position clearer. From what you have posted, who would know

If you don’t know, you haven’t been paying attention. I mentioned that a long time ago. there’s nothing wrong with my writing.

Are you referring to Christendom's "scholarship" again? What did Jesus call the Pharisees? "The blind leading the blind"...history repeats because human nature does not change. Power corrupts and it sometimes corrupts so thoroughly that it alters perceptions of whole nations without them being aware of the snow job.

I’m referring to apparent ignorance of an exegetical treatment of Matthew.

Obviously you have not made your position clear on that subject either

Obviously, you haven’t been paying attention.

Moving the goal posts again

Nope. Just clarifying.

Again your posts are suggesting that there is no accountability. Perhaps you could be more specific.

YOU leapt to that conclusion. Of course there’s accountability. I believe that everyone will, at some point, become accountable.

I can answer "yes" to all of the above...but there is no incongruity. God loves his obedient children

You have just stated the incongruity, and you don’t even know it. My question was whether you believed God loved God’s children. You answered “yes,” then went on to qualify that answer with “obedient,” which was not part of my question.

God has demonstrated in the past how he feels when his "children" disobey him.....none of that indicates to me that he is some mamby-pamby wimp who winks at disobedience

Of course not. At some point, everyone must meet reality and truth. I believe they will.

If we don't want to "perish", we had better pull our socks up. What is with this very selective view of scripture you have

No one “perishes.” That was the point of reconciling humanity.

My God is a dictator....but a loving and benevolent one

Then your God is too small.

He created man, but he did not create us as individuals

I disagree. The Bible disagrees.

Did he ask for confession? Or did he simply give the woman at the well some proof of who he was by recounting her marital status

In that enlightenment, there was healing. In that healing there was salvation. And yet, no confession was asked for before the healing was offered. That was my point.

The woman with the flow of blood was humble and fully aware that her condition made her "unclean" according to the law. She broke God's law just being there, but Jesus healed her without condemnation.

Nope. If she broke social convention, that’s not a sign of humility; it’s a sign of hubris — born of desperation, certainly, but hubris nonetheless.

You see things through your own lens and that's OK.....but one thing is certain...we can't both be right. Nor can all the denominations in Christendom be right

We can, so long as we both derive our perspectives through an honest treatment of the texts, reason and experience.

Please tell me what "gehenna" is in your understanding

It’s a rather amorphous idea of “where dead people go.” It is neither explained, nor conceived in any detail. It is not the same as the more Hellenistic “hell.”

The ransom sacrifice of Jesus applies to all who merit it

1) I don’t buy the “ransom” part of the sacrifice.
2) The sacrifice was for all.

Oh, so it wasn't their teachings that he constantly castigated them for

Not specifically. It was how they used them — or rather misused them.

Seems pretty clear to me

Of course it does, Dear.

I don't recall the father putting a time limit of his son's return

That’s my point: The father waits until the Son returns. Until. At some point, I believe that all will return, repent, embrace the truth, and come to faith.

Please tell us the name of this church so that I research your beliefs and practices

Judging by the adversarial and non-collegial tenor of your exchanges here, you’ll understand if I don’t trust you with that information.

Please enlighten us.

Remember what Jesus said about pearls...

 

[osgart]

osgart,
Deeje gave about as good an answer as there is. I would like to add a little to see what you think.
God gave the Jews 613 Laws in the Mosaic Law Covenant. These laws were for His Chosen People. God wrote all those laws for their good. God is not arbitrary, making laws just because He has the power and the right, but His laws are for the good of the people they were meant for, and good for all others of all nations that would follow them, Deuteronomy 10:12,13, Isaiah 48:17-19.
In the Christian Greek Scriptures, we really come to appreciate tha love that The Almighty God has for mankind. God was even willing to give the life of His Unique son, so that whoever would believe on him would not perish, meaning lost forever, but have everlasting life.
So, realizing what God thinks of His great creation, we come to believe that what taught the Jews in the Mosaic Law Covenant, would be the best things a person can do, in this life, to live a happy, satisfying life.
When a Jewish man, well versed in the Law as Jesus, what was the greatest commandment in the Law. Jesus said you must love your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. That is the greatest Law, of course this was Jesus speaking so we know that loving God means loving Jesus also. Jesus the said the second Law was like that one, You should love your neighbor as yourself. Notice also, that Jesus said the whole Law hangs on these. Being close to the Almighty God and His Son will bring any person the greatest happiness. Romans 13:8-10, These Laws, along with The Golden Rule, Matthew 7:12. Doing these things we will be storing up treasure in heaven, and where you treasure is, there will be your heart also. No happier life can be had!!! Acts 20:35. Agape!!!

Out of those 613 laws how many of them include stoning, or any kind of killing?

 

[osgart]

Does objective moral truth exist? Things that are true regardless of personal feelings.

To me, the obvious answer is yes. Since people have hearts, minds, and wills of their very own there is nature of chosen intent.

True justice creates civil peace. True justice is to never ever harm the harmless. Some people fall short of this precept because of the nature of their intent. A guilty intention is the desire to harm the harmless. An innocent desire is one that never ever desires to harm the harmless.

Justice is the bottom rock of existing with any kind of quality of life. Life is more than justice. Life is about the desire to help the harmless as they deserve.

Life is about caring for the innocent as they deserve by desiring to do so care.

Life is founded on justice, and is a higher quality of living than mere justice.

While justice preserves the civil peace. Life is about desiring to help the innocent. Thats what makes love possible; the love that cares for others as self.

Every person that has a heart, mind, and will has loves, cares, hates, and ambivalences. All humans have these three components and four capacities of being.
Nature of intent is real.

Am i right, or am i wrong?