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What are the top 10 things you want the government to do?

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
It's not that wouldn't happen at all, it's just that they wouldn't be forced to happen. Besides, we give to society through taxes. We pay for things that are used by all. This is society giving to us and us giving back.

Yes, taxes are us giving to society and society giving to us. So, what's your problem with that?

How many people have honestly not been on a road a day in their life? 0.00001%?

Don't know, but more than 0, I can guarantee you.

Homeschooled families should not have to pay taxes for schools then

That defeats the whole purpose. Then you're saying only those who have kids in school should pay taxes for schools. That's a very ineffective way of doing it. The better way is to set up things like schools, libraries, police and other departments, and collect taxes to pay for all of them. You work, and you pay taxes, and those taxes go towards all of those things.

Everyone has an equal chance of being attacked, robbed, killed, raped, hi by a drunk driver, etc. (unless you're doing something to provoke these)

And everyone can just as easily end up poor and homeless.

Physically seeing something is completely different from it being available to you (I said see it back as a figure of speech)

Huh? Let's try this again.

We all see the benefit of helping the poor, namely in having a bigger group of productive members of society.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
I am giving you the last word in this thread, because our morals are vastly different, and we cannot find a meeting place.
 

justbehappy

Active Member
Yes, taxes are us giving to society and society giving to us. So, what's your problem with that?
Taxes on the wrong things

Don't know, but more than 0, I can guarantee you.
But everyone can use them

That defeats the whole purpose. Then you're saying only those who have kids in school should pay taxes for schools. That's a very ineffective way of doing it. The better way is to set up things like schools, libraries, police and other departments, and collect taxes to pay for all of them. You work, and you pay taxes, and those taxes go towards all of those things.
This is why I think we should just pay for public schools ourselves. Because there's so many kids that don't even go to them. BUT I DO support that everyone should be able to have a chance to have educaton (plus, giving kids a chance to work their way up is much better than a handout), so the government could give aid to families that can't afford it so they can go to school.

And everyone can just as easily end up poor and homeless.
Most won't, and that is the point. It is not for everyone.

Huh? Let's try this again.

We all see the benefit of helping the poor, namely in having a bigger group of productive members of society.
You said the same thing as before. Seeing what our money goes to is not the same thing as having it.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Taxes on the wrong things

Like what?

But everyone can use them

So? Everyone can use most social programs.

Most won't, and that is the point. It is not for everyone.

OK, but then by your own view, police, roads and running water aren't for everyone either, but you seem to think they're OK.

You said the same thing as before.

Hence why I prefaced it with "Let's try this again".

Seeing what our money goes to is not the same thing as having it.

Ah, you are misunderstanding the wording. We'll try it one more time:

We all get the benefit of helping the poor, namely in having a bigger group of productive members of society.
 

justbehappy

Active Member
Like what?
Taxes on things don't affect most people

So? Everyone can use most social programs.
You see the coulds and what ifs, and I see what will happen based on facts.

OK, but then by your own view, police, roads and running water aren't for everyone either, but you seem to think they're OK.
Police and roads are, I explained how. We pay for water, though...?

Ah, you are misunderstanding the wording. We'll try it one more time:

We all get the benefit of helping the poor, namely in having a bigger group of productive members of society.
Either way, it's not a direct benefit. Everything the government could do could have some benefits. I could say the government should pay for all women's hair appointments, and the benefit is that we'll be happier and have better self-esteem. Does that meant the government should pay for it?
 

Smoke

Done here.
Then you should also not have to pay
Yes, I should. It's in the interest of society, of which each of us is a member whether he likes it or not, to see that all members have some kind of education. I have the utmost contempt for people who whine about paying school taxes. Public schools are one of the most basic and most desperately necessary requirements of any civilized country.
 
It is not done, and so it is not a requirement.
An unfulfilled requirement is still a requirement.
I must say a six-story chicken coop sounds pretty cool, though. I would like to see one of those. Honestly.
You should come to Vermont.
why can't we control people's responsibility with everything?
You could, with enough votes. Personally, I think individual liberties should be maximized.
I would much rather justify it as giving everyone an equal chance to move up in the world.
That's a good way to put it. FDR called it "equitable pursuit of happiness".
Wouldn't giving them money make them more likely to get a better job, though..? Or simply not have a job at all.
The point is those jobs are necessary and aren't going to go away. Somebody has to fill them. If they're necessary to the functioning of society, then the people who fill them should, at some minimum level that I don't feel we have reached, share in the benefits of society.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Yes, I should. It's in the interest of society, of which each of us is a member whether he likes it or not, to see that all members have some kind of education. I have the utmost contempt for people who whine about paying school taxes. Public schools are one of the most basic and most desperately necessary requirements of any civilized country.

It won't let me give you frubals for that because I've given you too many.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Taxes on things don't affect most people

Did you mean to say "Taxes on things that don't affect most people"? And if so, do you mean taxes that are used for things that don't affect most people or taxes on the actual things themselves? I'm assuming you mean the former, but correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I'm assuming you mean taxes that are used for things you don't like. There are no social programs that don't affect most people, though.

You see the coulds and what ifs, and I see what will happen based on facts.
No, you don't. You see what you want to see, and I see reality. Those programs are there for the entire population. They are there for you, me and Bill Gates. Luckily for you you've never had to use them, but that doesn't mean you never will. You might never have to use car insurance either, but it's still helpful to have.

Police and roads are, I explained how.
Your explanation was insufficient. You're welcome to try again, though.

Either way, it's not a direct benefit.
Yes, it is. The direct benefit is a better society to live in.

Everything the government could do could have some benefits. I could say the government should pay for all women's hair appointments, and the benefit is that we'll be happier and have better self-esteem. Does that meant the government should pay for it?
Maybe you should try a different example that is actually analogous to the situation we're talking about.
 
Applies equally to US and UK govt:
1. Stop invading places
2. Stop trying to solve all our problems - we know cigarettes and obesity are bad, now shut up and pass me that pie.
3. Leave us the fu** alone - don't tell us how to live, what god to worship, what gender to marry
4. Maintain law and order - punish wrong doers who have done harm to another
5. Do the basics well - we want decent infrastructure, roads and rail
6. Keep us safe - a minimal military force capable of defending our shores and nothing more
7. Curb our own greatest excesses - bankers are greedy, shock horror, it's not their fault you deregulated and they took the pi** - what did you think would happen?
8. Educate our children
9. Balance the books
10. Maintain the NHS - yeah yeah I know Americans don't get it, but the NHS is frikkin wonderful.
 
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Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
I am American and I get it. Even the British Conservative party couldn't deny its benefits. :yes:

The NHS is a great service, but it is being gradually ruined by excessive government bureaucracy, especially from the previous New Labour government.

Socialised healthcare can work in my opinion, so long as the government is reasonable with it and doesn't drown it in useless government targets and unneccessary red tape.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
The NHS is a great service, but it is being gradually ruined by excessive government bureaucracy, especially from the previous New Labour government.

Socialised healthcare can work in my opinion, so long as the government is reasonable with it and doesn't drown it in useless government targets and unneccessary red tape.

I'd say that's the case with pretty much everything.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
I'd say that's the case with pretty much everything.

Well yeah actually, I guess you're right about that.

IMO things like education and Healthcare should be like the Police and Fire services, rather than having these insuance-related methods etc. Generally speaking, I am quite skeptical of pure Socialism 'cause I believe mis-management of the funds is a real possibility, however I also believe that people should have things like universal Healthcare/Education/Police/Fire etc.

It's just finding the right balance which is hard. :/

Also (slightly off-topic here), is it possible to say that the Military is Socialist? 'Cause the taxpayers have to fund it and it's a national force etc.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist


The NHS is a great service, but it is being gradually ruined by excessive government bureaucracy, especially from the previous New Labour government.

Socialised healthcare can work in my opinion, so long as the government is reasonable with it and doesn't drown it in useless government targets and unneccessary red tape.

Nevertheless, New Labour saved the NHS. It is hard to avoid denigration after 13-years in Government. The Conservative's new plan for the NHS is dangerous.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Well yeah actually, I guess you're right about that.

IMO things like education and Healthcare should be like the Police and Fire services, rather than having these insuance-related methods etc. Generally speaking, I am quite skeptical of pure Socialism 'cause I believe mis-management of the funds is a real possibility, however I also believe that people should have things like universal Healthcare/Education/Police/Fire etc.

It's just finding the right balance which is hard. :/

Yes, pure socialism is not the best idea. A balance between socialism and capitalism is the way to go.

Also (slightly off-topic here), is it possible to say that the Military is Socialist? 'Cause the taxpayers have to fund it and it's a national force etc.

Yup, I'd say it's socialist, just like many other things we have like the police.
 

justbehappy

Active Member
Yes, I should. It's in the interest of society
What classifies something as "in the interest of society" to you

to see that all members have some kind of education.
I do agree that people who can't afford school should be provided aid, as there is no way to work yourself up from poverty without education (or very few ways), but only people attending public schools should still have to pay taxes I believe.

Public schools are one of the most basic and most desperately necessary requirements of any civilized country.
I agree, which is one this is one government aid program I support. But I don't see it's complete necessity. Why can't they work just like private/Catholic schools? The money we're paying in taxes for them could be used to directly pay for our children to go to them instead. Just like social security - we could be saving money ourselves rather than paying taxes for it. And most people would benefit much more saving it themselves. Which is why I agree with Libertarians that we should be able to opt out of social security.
 
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