lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
That is a great excuse. When you repeat a prayer over and over you are not really praying but just meditating. See how easy it is to make excuses for things that do not match the Bible.
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What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?
- Thread starter Spiderman
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
That is in their Bible and their CCC as well. In the Bible, god didn't want people to worship statues nor depict statues as if they were god for worship. He didn't want people to worship statues.
No Catholic worship statues. I always tell anti-catholics to go in front of, say, the statue of Mary. Pray "the Lord's Prayer" and another prayer to jesus christ. Then decern whether you prayed to the statue or did you pray to Mary.
Another more difficult one is go to a statue of jesus and then pray to jesus and see if you can decern if you are praying to a statue or to jesus himself.
Your verses (and CCC and their Bible) says if you pray to the statue as if it were god (a image of god) for worship that is against god's law.
The key is not the statue itself but whether you are worshiping it or just looking at a block of marble. If you can't tell the difference, that's the concern of the anti-catholic. Most Catholics can tell the difference.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
CCC Article 1 The First Commandment
Since it's an html web page I can't link it.
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It was proper for young Jewish men to go into the wilderness to use prayerful meditation, much like John the Baptist and Jesus seemingly did that obviously involves meditation (iow, actually thinking what you are going to pray for and contemplating what is important in life). To be meaningful, prayer needs to be related to certain conditions, which means one should think about what they're praying about and for. As just one type of prayer, Catholics use the rosary.
What you obviously do not realize is the meditation is a type of prayer that was commonly used in early Judaism and early Christianity, but it made a revival with the monastic groups in the CC that had a very positive effect on the church as a whole, and it continues to be recognized as being valid in both religions nowadays.
My suggestion is that if you don't like doing it, don't do it, but then at least realize that many do and for very moral reasons. IOW, maybe be a bit less judgmental.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Look at the key words. You shall not MAKE any likeness of anything that is in heaven. Just making anything that looks like Jesus or Mary or any saints is forbidden. It does not matter if you worship them or pray to them. Anything that looks like anything in heaven. Or do you not believe Jesus and Mary and the saints are in heaven? There must be some excuse just like there is for everything else.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I haven't seen them come up here yet.
Oh wait, I'm here at RF-- time for revision: I haven't seen them come down here yet.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
As far as praying, I am not being judgemental, God is judging. I am just pointing out how easy it is to make excuses. We are not repeating a prayer, we are meditating. We are not praying to a statue, we are just using it for concentration. Etc, etc. How much easier would it be to follow the Bible instead of making excuses.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Oh, you mean like you use all so often?
C'mon, maybe meditate (think) before you post, as one person's "excuse" is another person's "reality". You are taking a "my way or the highway" position that is so utterly narrow-minded, especially in light of all the harmful and hate-filled atrocities that have been perpetrated in the name of God by fundamentalists in various religions over the many centuries.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Even though you deny it, you are indeed being judgmental-- very judgmental as a matter of fact. Not everyone has to agree with you in order to be a good and moral person.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
BTW, does anyone else notice just how judgmental, condescending, and sarcastic that some of our fundamentalist Protestant friends here are, and yet you only on rare occasions see such with Catholics attacking and negatively judging Protestants? This is just one reason why I left my fundamentalist Protestant church many moons (about 50 years) ago. Even though I'm not Catholic, I feel much more at "home" there than in my former church.
Democracy doesn't match the Bible either.
The Bible was great in it's day, but that was a long time ago.
Tom
I can agree with you about images (such as art work) Not being thought of as being a ' graven image ', but when used in prayer representing someone in such acts of worship, or used in religious activities, is another matter.
To me, Exodus 20:4-5 is saying Not make any graven image (religious idol) in any likeness in heaven, earth, water.
That is why in my view 2 Corinthians 5:7 says to walk by faith and Not by sight ( sighted religious objects ) .
God's Word (Bible) is a lamp (flashlight) to our feet, and a light (high beams) to our path - Psalms 119:105.
So, to me we do Not need sighted objects in connection to religious devotion.
Any thoughts about Jeremiah 10:3-5
Since Jesus believed in the ' theocracy ' of Daniel 2:44 then right, democracy does Not match the Bible.
The modern-day definition of theocracy is: rule by clergy or rule by clergy class.
The theocracy ( God Rule ) Jesus believed in is " thy kingdom come ' ( God's government come )
That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation for Jesus to come at Revelation 22:20.
I don't want your theocracy.
I would pray "Jesus, tell me the Truth or else go away", but I don't think doing so would get me anything.
Tom
I have No theocracy, rather Jesus, as King (President ) of God's theocratic government ( thy kingdom come....... )
has a theocracy, or is head of God's theocratic kingdom government.
Just as the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Jordan are real governments, Daniel 2:44 is a real government.
So, by Jesus wanting us to pray ' God's kingdom come ' is the Truth.
After all, Jesus believed and taught that Scripture is religious Truth according to John 17:17
The theme of Jesus' preaching according to Luke 4:43 is telling other about God's theocratic kingdom.
That kingdom rule over Earth will bring about the good earthly conditions as mentioned in the 35th chapter of Isaiah.
So, it will get you something: Healing for earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
100 points for that one.
I will spell this post correctly for extra anti-annoyance points.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
They are not prayed to, vis-a-vis Catholic teachings, any more than pictures inside a book you might use are. "Graven image" is not defined in the scriptures, but praying to idols is covered, and the latter is obviously forbidden.
Personally, I have never met a Catholic who prays to a statue or a picture, but it's possible there have been some that do. But then they may pray to whatever even if a statue or picture wasn't around.
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
Lots of Shirk
I think we can agree about Not praying to a statue, picture, etc.
In my view, God's Law is that carved/graven images ( even the making of them ) was prohibited according to Exodus 20:4-5; Leviticus 26:1; Isaiah 42:8
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
When you say the Lord's Prayer over and over in sincerity not like a robot, it is considered prayer. You are literally talking to your Lord and expressing devotion to him by continuous verbal expression. Meditation is more breathing and calming your thoughts. Prayer is communication in its simplistic terms. Where in the Bible does it forbid someone to pray repeatedly- that is if repetition doesn't somehow void the prayers regardless of how sincere and heartfelt devotion that christian has?
That would be odd. Your salvation is dependent on how many prayers you say within five minutes and whether it's the same one or not.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, unless you're oblivious to getting hit over the head by a 2X4, you'd probably notice.
Yup. As a rule, Catholics are much less judgmental than Protestants. (Of course, there are always exceptions.) Sometimes I wonder if the entire message of Christianity was lost on Protestants.