All Christian sects say they are the true Christians, so who are the true Christians, the JW's?. I don't think I believe any of you which is one of the reasons I became Pagan in the first place.
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What are your thoughts on Christianity?
- Thread starter MatthewA
- Start date
All Christian sects say they are the true Christians, so who are the true Christians, the JW's?. I don't think I believe any of you which is one of the reasons I became Pagan in the first place.
Jesus was Jewish and therefore used Jewish scripture to support his teachings....it was the only scripture in existence at the time, and the Christian scriptures do not replace the Hebrew Scriptures....they complement them. Jesus did not add to, but clarified what the Hebrew Scriptures had foretold. The Jewish claim that he did not fulfill the Messianic prophesies is nonsense.....what he did not fulfill was their expectations and their misinterpretation of those prophesies. He wasn't what they expected and he denounced the religious leaders as the spawn of the devil...any wonder they found reasons to deny him.
Jesus instituted a new covenant with his disciples who were “lost sheep” in Judaism, and to whom he was sent to lead out of a corrupted religious system, altered by the hypocritical religious leaders whom Jesus roundly denounced. (Matthew ch 23; John 8:44) The Jews had an appalling record as disobedient covenant breakers. (Isaiah 24:5)
No changes???? ......you can’t be serious.
Please let me mention just a few.....
Did the Jews ever believe in a triune God?.....did Jesus ever say that he was God and that people should worship him?....was his earthly mother a person who warranted adoration or devotion, or was it his heavenly Father?......did Jesus speak about souls being tortured forever in the flames of hell? Were images accepted as part of Jewish worship?.....was an immortal soul part of ancient Jewish belief?
All these and more were additions....”changes” to what the first century Christians taught and believed. There was no 'apostolic succession' ever mentioned by Jesus or his apostles, let alone the adoption of pagan Roman elements and celebrations fused with apostate Christianity, under the banner of Roman Catholicism. There was no Pope or elaborate Cathedrals, or even an earthly priesthood in the first century, so if you are going to talk about changes, you haven’t gone back far enough. 'Catholicism' was never “Christian” in its conduct or teachings from its institution, and more so the RCC because its introduction was more political rather than religious. Its doctrines presided over by a pagan Emperor who worshipped Zeus until the day he died.
Deviation from Christ’s teachings began proliferating from the second century onward, so by the fourth century it was ripe for a takeover.
But this was no surprise as it was all foretold by Jesus and those to whom he entrusted his teachings. What happened to Judaism was repeated in Christendom....and for the same reasons. Men introduced “traditions” and deviated from scripture to practice something other than what Christ taught. (Acts 20:30)
Claiming Jesus as “Lord” will not save anyone unless we are ‘doing the will of the Father’. (Matthew 7:21-23) Fusing Christianity with paganism was never going please the true God. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
IMO, you fail to see that Orthodoxy was itself a deviation from Christ’s original teachings. When you say that “every other denomination was a deviation”, you are talking about further deviations from a religious system that had already lost its way. The “weeds” of Jesus parable were not sown recently, but the first to sprout were in evidence while the apostles were still alive. (Matthew 13:36-43) These acted as a restraint in the latter part of the first century, (2 Thessalonians 2:6-12)....but after the last Apostle, John passed away, there was no longer a restraint to hold that foretold apostasy back.
Sorry, but I do not believe that Orthodox Christianity with its rituals and liturgy were a reflection of original Christianity in any way.
There must have been a reason for your own defection from that religious system....? I know why I left.
Nothing galls like hypocrisy and lies.
Inaccuracies? or an inconvenient truth?
Since I am also a defector from a religious system that had deviated in every way from what Jesus and the apostles taught, I see things very clearly. Jesus did not hold back from exposing religious error, because people’s lives were at stake. We will all live or die depending upon who or what we choose to worship. It’s too important to remain silent. The criticism (exposure) has a goal, like it did with Jesus....to save lives. I’m sorry that you can’t see that. The Jews couldn't see it either.
Only those who are not entrenched in counterfeit Christianity will actually appreciate what I have been saying.
You cannot choose false gods and false worship and expect the true God to reward you.
As Jesus taught, there are only two roads and every single one of us is on one or the other.....the “sheep” are on the cramped and narrow road, leading to life, whilst the “goats” have chosen the easy way, practicing the religion of their choice and giving worship to their own gods, assuming that it will lead them to where they want to go.....but that road is a dead end. (Matthew 7:13-14)
If that is confronting to some, then I make no apology because in this, I am emulating my Master, who never held back from telling an unpopular truth. It is the result of over 50 years of deep study of the scriptures and having the benefit of being on both sides of the fence in this situation.
If people have made their choice, then what I say will have no impact...but for those who harbor lingering doubts, (the lost sheep) there will always be room for more research.
The simple truth is that no one can come to Jesus without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) Those without an invitation, will never even find the “narrow gate” that leads to the right road.
There is one God and one truth.....the sincere ones will find the correct path.
That is what I believe.
It always amuses me when people swap over to another religion because their last one was not what they were looking for.....but what they go to, is often worse than what they left....out of the frying pan and into the fire....
Its like an act of spite.
What do you hope to achieve by becoming what God hates? Where will it get you? Will your gods save you when the crunch comes....?
Looking for the truth is like trying to find a diamond in a pile of broken glass.....the glass doesn't make the diamond disappear, it just makes it hard to find. That is why we need God to help us to identify the diamond. But you have to ask him......and if he doesn't answer you, I believe there is a reason.
Just wanted to add this to this thread:
One of the greatest Thinkers of all time, Isaac Newton, loved the Bible!
And he studied it daily.
What he disagreed with, were the teachings of the Church.... he found that Church dogma was not in unison w/ Scripture.
In fact, he even found where the Church had altered Scripture to support their teachings, like the Comma Johanneum.
The accusations of ‘misogyny’, and ‘sacrifice himself to himself to protect us from himself’....how come Newton didn’t reach these conclusions? Was Newton not smart enough? Or maybe, just maybe, Newton realized such accusations were based on faulty Church dogma?
Myself, I love the Bible, but I abhor most of what Christendom’s leaders teach.
Plus, they have an awful reckoning coming.... so many have observed their hypocrisy — with one corner of their mouth praising the Prince of Peace, while with the other encouraging their members to support war efforts of their respective countries, each one killing their spiritual brothers, simply due to geography.
Disobeying John 13:34-35 & others.....
Let me ask you...Who gives people the ability to understand the Bible? Is it not Jesus’ Father, Yahweh / Jehovah? (Luke 10:21)
If they’re not obedient to Christ, can they expect to receive enlightenment from his Father? Will they have an accurate understanding of God’s Word, i.e., correct teachings from it?
In the process, millions have turned away from not only Christendom. but the Scriptures, too.
Good night, my cousin.
One of the greatest Thinkers of all time, Isaac Newton, loved the Bible!
And he studied it daily.
What he disagreed with, were the teachings of the Church.... he found that Church dogma was not in unison w/ Scripture.
In fact, he even found where the Church had altered Scripture to support their teachings, like the Comma Johanneum.
The accusations of ‘misogyny’, and ‘sacrifice himself to himself to protect us from himself’....how come Newton didn’t reach these conclusions? Was Newton not smart enough? Or maybe, just maybe, Newton realized such accusations were based on faulty Church dogma?
Myself, I love the Bible, but I abhor most of what Christendom’s leaders teach.
Plus, they have an awful reckoning coming.... so many have observed their hypocrisy — with one corner of their mouth praising the Prince of Peace, while with the other encouraging their members to support war efforts of their respective countries, each one killing their spiritual brothers, simply due to geography.
Disobeying John 13:34-35 & others.....
Let me ask you...Who gives people the ability to understand the Bible? Is it not Jesus’ Father, Yahweh / Jehovah? (Luke 10:21)
If they’re not obedient to Christ, can they expect to receive enlightenment from his Father? Will they have an accurate understanding of God’s Word, i.e., correct teachings from it?
In the process, millions have turned away from not only Christendom. but the Scriptures, too.
Good night, my cousin.
Lots of things you’re missing. Christianity is not Judaism. We’re not talking about Judaism. We’re talking about the deviations from early Christianity by later groups. Jesus didn’t override the old Law except for the dietary restrictions and capital punishment for violating commandments. So are we saying he didn’t have the authority to do that? Besides, all the references to scriptures support what he said about adhering to the letter of the Law and not the spirit. The apostles and early councils were guided by the Holy Spirit. Right there, anything that deviated from Judaism was believed to be under its guidance. So it has nothing to do with what Judaism believes or doesn’t believe about a triune God.
As for my “defection”, I don’t believe the theology, cosmology, soteriology, or ontology of the Abrahamic religions. My seeming defense of Christianity is historical. I have no love for any of the modern practices.Go back and study and learn the history, not just the veneer.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is a huge element of dishonesty that the Governing Body of the JW's teaches about the Catholic Church being "pagan", thus not being Christian, and to dispel that lie, I want to show all what the liturgy of the mass is like:
In the Roman Rite, the Mass is made up of two principal parts: the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. It begins with the Introductory Rites and ends with the Concluding Rites.
Another way of dividing a Mass is into its "ordinary" parts—those texts which, with some variations, are part of the Mass on a daily basis—and its "proper" parts—the texts of prayers and selection of Scripture readings proper to the specific feast, feria or other occasion being observed.
Introductory Rites
Liturgy of the Word
Liturgy of the Eucharist
Concluding Rites
Thus, please do not believe in the repeated lies that one periodically sees from some JW's here at RF, and they would know better since I've posted this at least twice before but with no effect in stopping their dishonesty, thus their continued lying in the name of "Jehovah".
In the Roman Rite, the Mass is made up of two principal parts: the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. It begins with the Introductory Rites and ends with the Concluding Rites.
Another way of dividing a Mass is into its "ordinary" parts—those texts which, with some variations, are part of the Mass on a daily basis—and its "proper" parts—the texts of prayers and selection of Scripture readings proper to the specific feast, feria or other occasion being observed.
Introductory Rites
- Entrance
- Greeting
- Penitential Act
- Glory to God
- Collect
Liturgy of the Word
- First Reading [OT or NT]
- Responsorial Psalm
- Second Reading [NT epistles]
- Gospel Acclamation
- Gospel [NT]
- Homily [must reflect the Gospel reading at a minimum]
- Profession of Faith (on Sundays, solemnities, and special occasions)
- Universal Prayer
Liturgy of the Eucharist
- Presentation of the Gifts and Preparation of the Altar
- Prayer over the Offerings
- Eucharistic Prayer
- Preface
- Holy, Holy, Holy
- First half of prayer, including Consecration
- Mystery of Faith
- Second half of prayer, ending with Doxology
- The Lord's Prayer
- Sign of Peace
- Lamb of God
- Communion
- Prayer after Communion
Concluding Rites
- Optional announcements
- Greeting and Blessing
- Dismissal -- Order of Mass | USCCB [a few items I added for clarification's sake]
Thus, please do not believe in the repeated lies that one periodically sees from some JW's here at RF, and they would know better since I've posted this at least twice before but with no effect in stopping their dishonesty, thus their continued lying in the name of "Jehovah".
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe Paul had the Holy Spirit but with a load of Jewish teaching behind him, he can't help but have some of that come through.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe if it quacks like a duck and waks like a duck, that it doesn't matter that it hasn't laid an egg yet and if it is a male it never will. So what I am saying is that he has filled enough prophecy to qualify as Messiah and He has testified that He is the Messiah.
He hasn't fulfilled any.
Muffled
Jesus in me
After leaving the church, I realized I had never been christian. I wasn't raised as such and only been in the Church four years of my adult life.
I didn't have any bad experiences in the Church. I had a priest yell at me once. In a nondenominational church I had a seizure (about the same time 12 years ago) and they thought I had the holy spirit in me. Held me down and tried to get the HS from me. No one called 911. They said one of the members was saved from a heart attack by the holy spirit (weird, they were getting it from me and not christ). All my other experiences where neutral or beautiful. One priest in my first confession spent a couple hours with me in his office. The Church retreat was great and I like how you can have private devotion time and much resources in the Church.
My hangup isn't christians but some of the theology, history, never believed god existed, and never ever based my life on the bible. So, it was a spiritual learning experience but not an awakening one.
Specifically in the bible I don't agree with? Well. Everything.
I'm now indifferent about it.
I believe if you ever did anything bad then they would have blamed Christianity for it even though you weren't one.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe He was born in Bethlehem for starters.
So were many folks, leaving aside whether that's even a messianic prophecy, thus it's not exactly a stellar proof.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
They're associating terms (Eucharist v communion), external outlook (gold platted church vs at one's home), authoritative roles, and definition of worship. Liturgy is part of tradition and they don't see that either.
From what I know, the summary is repentance, communion, and confirmation; that's pretty much in every christian church. How each church defines it really depends. I think JW use water instead of wine for their communion and it doesn't say water in scripture. So, maybe many churches are just looking past each other.
Another is I think they have an weird idea of what traditions mean. They've had a set of traditions from (quick research) 1870s. Traditions just means passing on teachings so they can be kept, practiced, and remembered. They have songs, prayers, and readings. Communion as well.
The only major thing they don't have that the Church does is the Eucharist and seeing jesus as the incarnation of god. Outside of that, I know no christian denomination I've gone to that has no tradition, rituals, and the like.
I don't think they will get the core of it...just what they are taught.
Maybe a foregone conclusion?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Lots of things you’re ignoring.....like Jesus telling us to look at the “fruitage” if you want to identify his true disciples. What was the “fruitage of the early church? History tells us that the actions of the church did not match their claims to represent Christ.
Catholicism cannot be true Christianity if its leaders behaved exactly like the Pharisees. When innocent blood was found in the church, Christ left the building. (Isaiah 1:15)
I never said we were.....I said that Jesus was Jewish and was therefore under Law until the day he died. But on the night before his death, he inaugurated a “new covenant” with his apostles so that this would release his disciples from the “curse” of the Law, (Galatians 3:13) and why he said he had come to “fulfill” it. (Matthew 5:17)
His death accomplished that and ushered in a whole new arrangement. Jesus said that “you can’t put old wine into new wine skins”.....you have to put “new wine into new wineskins”. The new covenant foretold by Jeremiah, was “not like the old covenant”. (Luke 5:37-38; Jeremiah 31:31-32) The old ways were now dispensed with because the Law had fulfilled its purpose. (Galatians 3:23-25)
What groups? And how much later?
It is apparent that you are ignoring the very early deviation of the so called church “fathers”. Apostasy was foretold and it is clearly seen in the church’s conduct and teachings, little by little as time went on....if you know what Christ originally taught rather than what the church says he did, you can see it.
Keeping the Bible out of the reach of the people did not permit them to examine the scriptures for themselves. Keeping them illiterate and ignorant worked well for them. This is how the church literally got away with murder.
By implementing a new covenant with a new “people”, only the principles of the Law were retained in what came to be called “the Law of the Christ” or “the Law of Love”.
Matthew 22:35-40....
“35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love the Lord your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
These two laws formed the basis for the entire Law Covenant, so these replaced the written Law, with a Law written on hearts and exercised through faith in Christ’s sacrifice.
Thereafter, there was no requirement to follow the old laws like Sabbath observance, circumcision, festivals and dietary requirements. All that was required for all of Christ’s disciples was outlined in Acts 15:28-29...
“For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. “
For both Jewish and Gentile Christians, only these “necessary things” applied.
What scriptures are you referring to? Please provide them.
While the apostles were alive, the holy spirit did guide their beliefs and conduct, but after their death, the foretold apostasy took the church in an opposite direction, and as it’s leaders gained power, corruption soon followed.
The declaration of Roman Catholicism as the “State Religion” of the Empire, in the fourth century was confirmation that the ”weeds” of Jesus parable had accomplished their aims. Counterfeit Christianity was now considered as the real thing. It never was.
But “wheat” were to grow along with the “weeds” until the “harvest time”......so a brave minority, who often paid with their lives at the hands of the church, never disappeared.
I believe that the time has arrived and that a separation is now well and truly under way. When Christ returns as judge, the fate of all will be set. (Matthew 24:37-39) No time to change your mind. (“Like the days of Noah”)
Interesting that you can defend the indefensible....
What makes you think that my study and research is not thorough? The sad and sorry history of the church is there for all to see.....disgusting in its blatantly pagan teachings and practices.
Only those not “blinded” by the god of this world, can see it. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4; 1 John 5:19)
The ‘veneer’, I’m afraid is clearly applied to Christendom, and as time goes on, that veneer is wearing a lot thinner.....so much so, that you can’t really see a separation from the world. Christendom and the world are very friendly....even to the point of supporting its bloodshed. (James 4:4) Shame on them for misrepresenting the one they claim as their “Lord”. (Matthew 7:21-23)
That is what my studies have revealed to me.
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It always amuses me when people swap over to another religion because their last one was not what they were looking for.....but what they go to, is often worse than what they left....out of the frying pan and into the fire....
Its like an act of spite.
What do you hope to achieve by becoming what God hates? Where will it get you? Will your gods save you when the crunch comes....?
Looking for the truth is like trying to find a diamond in a pile of broken glass.....the glass doesn't make the diamond disappear, it just makes it hard to find. That is why we need God to help us to identify the diamond. But you have to ask him......and if he doesn't answer you, I believe there is a reason.
Christianity is not for me, i tried other Christian sects but I found them as revolting as Orthodoxy. Besides I have had experiences with the Twelve Endless Immortals and no experiences with the holy spirit or whatever.
How do you know what God hates? how come his followers have never been able to get rid of us? If anything the Gods hate egotistical hubris that many Christians have and what Do I need to be saved from exactly? I got no response from the Christian god in the least.? What crunch exactly?
Are you sure that you know what real "Christianity" looks like? If all you have ever seen or had experience with was the counterfeit that Jesus said would come......can you be sure that you abandoned the real thing? Wouldn't it be ironic if you ditched one lie for another?...both from the same source....and both designed to point you in the wrong direction.
What if God finds them all as "revolting" as you do? What if he finds your present 'religion' revolting as well?
Can you explain your "experiences"? And can you also be sure that "the Twelve Endless Immortals" are not just demons pretending to be your spiritual guides? Deceptions are by nature......deceptive.....ya know....
God outlines very clearly in his word what he "hates"....and he told us to hate them too.
Proverbs 6:16-19....
There are six things that Jehovah hates;
Yes, seven things that he detests:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart plotting wicked schemes, and feet that run quickly to evil,
19 A false witness who lies with every breath,
And anyone sowing contentions among brothers."
Psalm 97:9-10...
"For you, O Jehovah, are the Most High over all the earth;
You are exalted far above all other gods.
10 O you who love Jehovah, hate what is bad.
He is guarding the lives of his loyal ones;
He rescues them from the hand of the wicked."
Now, as for your second question.....
....that has an interesting answer actually.
When satan first tempted the humans to rebel against God, (as he had already done) there was a challenge to God's Sovereign right to make the laws that his intelligent, free willed creatures had to obey. The reason for giving them his moral qualities and free will was so that they could represent him here on this earth as those appointed to oversee everything as God himself would.....they were to be caretakers and zoo keepers. It would call for decision making with a concept of what their actions might result in....envisioning or imagining what might happen in the future if a certain course was followed. Animals do not have that capacity. Only humans and angels have free will....and it is only a blessing if those who possess it understand that it needs boundaries in order to work for their benefit. If his free willed creatures stepped outside of the rules and wanted to exercise their free will in a selfish way, then great distress would result. They did...and this is why the world is in such a mess. Humans have been exercising their free will to the detriment of others ever since.
Instead of destroying the rebels, (which would only have proven that God was more powerful, not whether he was the superior Ruler) God kept the rebels in existence to test out the whole human race......and this also tested out his angelic sons as well...many of whom joined satan in his defection. By allowing all his children to exercise their free will without his interference, he can see clearly who has a genuine desire to serve him unselfishly, and who among the humans wants to live the life that we were first promised in Eden. Would we allow the rebels to go on robbing us of that hope by their lies and deception? Sadly the majority are. (Matthew 7:13-14)
Satan's MO has never changed because he and his cronies have had thousands of years to perfect their craft. They know human nature better than we do. So it isn't that God hasn't been able to get rid of those who promote false worship, but more that he is using them to test out his human children and it is they, who by their own choices, will gain either everlasting life or everlasting death.....there is no "hell".
God hates it too....did Jesus ever teach that? Do "many Christians" represent Jesus Christ? You know they don 't.
Jesus demonstrated confidence, not egotism. There is a big difference.
From the last judgment on this world before God takes his obedient children back to the beginning......we will all account to our Maker for the choices we have made.....these will determine if we have a future...or not.
You know, it amuses me that some think of God as some powerless idiot who is fooled by those hypocrites who claim to worship him....he is taking notes, believe me. There is a "Book of Life" where he has a record of those who obediently uphold his Sovereignty and who defend his name. I hope my name is in it...because oblivion awaits all those who fail to do that.
The book of Job is there to show us what the devil is all about...and how one man defeated him utterly just by holding onto his faith and never losing his trust in God, no matter how difficult the devil made life for him.
A response from God was expected by you in what form? Can you explain what you wanted from him but never got?
The "crunch" is the judgment....an elimination from existence for those who fail to meet God's criteria for citizenship in his Kingdom.....the apostle Peter explains it this way...
1 Peter 4:12-19.....
"Beloved ones, do not be surprised about the fiery trials that you are experiencing, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 On the contrary, go on rejoicing over the extent to which you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, so that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory. 14 If you are being reproached for the name of Christ, you are happy, because the spirit of glory, yes, the spirit of God, is resting upon you.
15 However, let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or a wrongdoer or a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name. 17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? 18 “And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?” 19 So, then, let those who are suffering in harmony with the will of God keep on entrusting themselves to a faithful Creator while they are doing good."
Judgment starts with professed believers. Many are going to be shocked at their rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23)
And you can see from Peter's words that the life of a Christian was never going to be easy, satan and his hordes were never going to let that happen, but the reward for our endurance will be everlasting. But in order to serve the true God, you must first get to know him.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And I'm positive that this is the key as they tend to blindly follow what the Governing Body tells them to believe and they are forbidden by the GB to actually investigate for themselves. This is what a "cult" does.
You need to study deeper... outside the JW paradigm and with open eyes and mind.
Of course all who claim to be Christian should think they are the true Christians or why else belong to a religion (?)
I think since Jesus believed the old Hebrew Scriptures is why Jesus did Not become Pagan.
Jesus worshipped his Father, his God - John 4:23-24, so people who follow Jesus' example would be Christian.
King James at Psalms 83:18 uses the name of Jesus' God and Heavenly Father in English as: Jehovah.
Revelation 3:12 shows resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still think he has a God over him.
Jesus said he would declare the name of his God according to Jesus at John 17:6; John 17:26.
So, then with Jesus' good reason is why Jehovah's Witnesses follow as Jesus says.
- www.jw.org