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What came before the Big Bang?

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
When you talk about mass, energy, and matter, all you're doing is conceptually dissecting reality. The reality of a steel ball, for example, is singular. Everything about it is one event. What you call its mass and its energy are actually one reality. Before you talk about mass; before you talk about energy; when you simply observe the steel ball, it is one event, it is 'massenergy'. It is...


The same is true of what we call the 'physical' world and the 'spiritual' world. They are one and the same, but only seem different because of the conceptualization process, by which we split reality in two, and then proceed to actually believe they ARE two.

The fact of the matter is, though, that there is a difference between objects and properties. Conflating the two is nonsensical -- in the sense that literally, it means nothing to do so.

We can step back and look at a steel ball and consider it in its totality. Sure. Yet it's still the case that if we talk about the steel ball and we refer to the total thing in one instance (e.g., "steel ball"), we are talking about an object. If we talk about the ball's steelness, we are talking about a property.

It would not make sense to say the ball is "steelness," as in the entire category of being steel. It only makes sense to speak of the ball as possessing steelness, of being a particular instance of a thing which exemplifies the property of steelness.

Conflating things with properties, again, doesn't convey any information or meaning. Might as well just type "sdlkjghsdljgh" instead.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
As a fun side note for Star Trek fans, Spock always used the word "logical" incorrectly as well. What he meant to say 99% of the time was "reasonable." The terms mean entirely different things.
You noticed that too. It bugs me sometimes when Spock was saying something like "it's logical" or "this is the only logical choice", and I was thinking about that it wasn't. You're right, "reasonable" would be more appropriate use most of the time (even though I think sometimes it wasn't even that).
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
True, there are false theories based on erroneous logic, but the mystical view is not based on science. So for you to say that you 'understand' the mystical view, which you call 'woo, means you would need to have a mystical experience.

I should clarify that I also use the term "woo" to refer to nebulously defined concepts with poor or absent metaphysics.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
That which sees, without thought.

Okay, this is pretty vague.

By "sees," do you mean visual perception? Something broader, like perception in general?

I would normally consider a perception a form of thought since perception comes with introspection (thus we know we have perceived something), so as is, this definition makes absolutely no sense to me.

Are you perhaps using a special definition for the word "thought?"

Can you be more concise?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I agree that consciousness itself isn't physical. I'm not a physicalist/ontological empiricist.

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say consciousness exists outside of space, time, or causation. A person's personality, awareness, cognitive abilities, etc. are very much subject to causal effects in terms of brain injury, disease, parasites, chemical imbalances, genetic disorders, and so on. That our minds mature as we age (hopefully :p) is indicative that our consciousness changes, so it must be subject to time. And that all of this points to the brain as the seat of consciousness certainly suggests a connection to space.

I make the distinction between mind and consciousness. 'My mind' is a self-created concoction, an illusion. Consciousness is before mind is created. It is not YOUR consciousness, though you think it is personal. It is impersonal and universal, just as the sea is universal to the wave. Currently, you are using mind to define consciousness as being within time and space. But being non-physical, how can it be so encapsulated? Give me an example as to how consciousness can be so measured.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Meow,

Isn't logic "that what/which is", while proofs are constructs explaining the natural occurrences (logics)? That would make the universe logical, because "it just is", mucho correcto?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
First of all, thanks a lot for your explanation.

As far as my anthropology experience, I started out mainly studying physical anthropology (human evolution) but then shifted over to cultural anthropology for my graduate degree. After completing this, I taught an introductory class in anthropology for roughly 30 years whereas I covered both, although about 2/3 of the time was on cultural.

In cultural, I did not specialize in any single area but in several because I needed to teach a broader scope, but my main areas were traditional Huron and Cheyenne societies (my ancestry is that of being a Me'tis (a French & Indian mix, although I was not brought up in the "tradition of the elders", as it's called), and mostly modern Middle Eastern culture. As a Jew, the latter item gradually took over more and more, and I've studied in the Middle East (1991 and 1999), including working on a dig just west of Jerusalem that was a Zealot-occupied site that was eventually destroyed by the Romans.

Have you any interest in either of these areas of study?

Shalom

Pretty interesting, they seem like such widely separated interests within the same field!

I'm interested in the sense that I could anticipate interesting things about the subjects, though anthropology isn't a subject I could get into very easily by myself. If the universe only had more time for us all to be omniologists.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Before the big bang there was heaven with God and all of His angels. The reason for the big bang and the universe is because God had a serious problem in heaven. Satan, a mean spirited angel who wanted to replace God, was attacking and hurting the other angels. To solve the problem. God created the universe and tossed Satan inside. Since the beginning of his imprisonment, Satan has made many attempts to escape back to heaven to continue his disruptive ways.

Humans are collateral damage from Satan's rebellion.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Prior to thought, is there awareness?

That's difficult to answer since the way I define "thought," an awareness would count as one.

Are you only using the word "thought" to refer to things that are more active like beliefs, preferences, propositions, exclamations rather than more passive things like perceptions, introspections, etc?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
You noticed that too. It bugs me sometimes when Spock was saying something like "it's logical" or "this is the only logical choice", and I was thinking about that it wasn't. You're right, "reasonable" would be more appropriate use most of the time (even though I think sometimes it wasn't even that).

Probably "practical" or "pragmatic" sometimes, also :p
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I make the distinction between mind and consciousness. 'My mind' is a self-created concoction, an illusion. Consciousness is before mind is created. It is not YOUR consciousness, though you think it is personal. It is impersonal and universal, just as the sea is universal to the wave. Currently, you are using mind to define consciousness as being within time and space. But being non-physical, how can it be so encapsulated? Give me an example as to how consciousness can be so measured.

I first have to have any idea whatsoever what you mean by the utterance "consciousness" before I can do that.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
मैत्रावरुणिः;3557142 said:
Meow,

Isn't logic "that what/which is", while proofs are constructs explaining the natural occurrences (logics)? That would make the universe logical, because "it just is", mucho correcto?

If I'm following you correctly, then yep.

Logic (the thing) can be thought of as being limitation itself (not a specific instance of limitation, but limitation itself). That's what all the laws of logic are referring to: as with identity (A = A), A is only A because of its limitations: what it means for A to be A, rather than ¬A, is that A is limited to a particular set of properties.

Logic (the thing), or limitation, doesn't require consciousness or minds or anyone looking at anything to be the case. It's just the case, it just is, as you say.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
What confirms reality then? You can deny the inevitable, but you can’t just make it go away by saying it’s an illusion and matter doesn’t exist.

Not that I care at this point, but I would like for you to explain the difference between fictitious beliefs and reality.

There is ordinary 'reality' and then there is True Reality. When you talked about banging my head against the keyboard, you are talking 'ordinary' reality, which is what most people refer to when looking at the world in terms of rational thought. Rational thought is a product of the conditioned mind. When consciousness is awakened, a new vision comes into play, and one no longer sees ordinary reality as they did before. One no longer sees via a conditioned mentality, but via an unconditioned consciousness. IOW, one now sees things as they are, rather than how our conditioning tells us they are. Once consciousness is awakened, you don't need to do anything, such as create ideas and concepts about Reality, because consciousness and Reality are one and the same experience.

So even though there is pain when banging the head against the keyboard, your experience is still a sensory one which says 'real', when, if you had the same experience with an awakened consciousness, and while there is still pain, it is understood that the 'material' world is still an illusion, but one of a higher order than ordinary illusion, in which, if the keyboard were a visual projection, there would be no physicality to the experience.

So the key to differentiating between the two 'realities' is awakened consciousness. Because most of mankind is asleep spiritually, there is suffering, because the concepts by which they approach reality do not match Reality.

As a simple comparison, you are in the desert and see a pool of water ahead. You firmly believe that what you see is real. You confirm its illusory nature via your consciousness and direct experience. That is true of the next higher level of consciousness in terms of what we call the 'physical' world as well.

From the point of view of ordinary consciousness, this world is real; from that of higher consciousness, it is illusory. (Actually, it is neither real nor not-real).
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
I should clarify that I also use the term "woo" to refer to nebulously defined concepts with poor or absent metaphysics.

As I said, that is perfectly legit when comparing other notions that are supposed to be based on logic and reason, but what you're failing to take into account is that the mystical view of the universe and of Reality, are not based on these kinds of knowledge. Basically, the primary difference is between seeing things as they are, and thinking about how things are.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
If I'm following you correctly, then yep.

Logic (the thing) can be thought of as being limitation itself (not a specific instance of limitation, but limitation itself). That's what all the laws of logic are referring to: as with identity (A = A), A is only A because of its limitations: what it means for A to be A, rather than ¬A, is that A is limited to a particular set of properties.

Logic (the thing), or limitation, doesn't require consciousness or minds or anyone looking at anything to be the case. It's just the case, it just is, as you say.

Cool! Thanks for explaining. Phew! That put my noggin back a little bit.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
There are a couple of misunderstandings in this post. I'll try to just address those one at a time.

1) Logic doesn't require a consciousness to exist -- the laws of logic do, however. Humans do invent the words, the symbols, the syntax, the utterances, and so on in order to describe logic via laws. However, humans don't invent the things to which the laws of logic refer (which can be called "logic," or "logical facts," or "logical objects," whatever).

As a crude analogy, Earth exists regardless of whether there are any minds to look at it or not. Minds make up the word "Earth," they make up the practice of differentiating it from the rest of the universe as a distinct thing that has a name, and so on; but minds aren't responsible for it being there and minds aren't responsible for it being what it is.

That second part (things being what they are, regardless of minds) is logic (the thing). We invent laws and words and terms and symbols to describe logic, but "the laws of logic" aren't what logic is, they're referencing logic, which humans didn't create -- they discovered.

Consciousness is necessary to make laws about logic, but consciousness doesn't create or cause logic -- in fact, that would be self-contradictory; since logic is about things being self-consistent, about things being what they are and not what they are not. Saying consciousness creates logic is putting the cart before the horse, since in order for consciousness to be consciousness (rather than a horse or a transcendental number or whatever) logic would already have to be the case. So, no, consciousness isn't required for logic to exist -- though the mistake is understandable since consciousness is necessary for laws about logic to exist.

2) You ask, "what is the logic of countless stars, infinite snowflake variety, etc.?"

This is a nonsense question. Logic is simply to have limitation, to have self-consistency and external consistency: to be is to be something, to be something is to be that thing and not something else.

I think the word you're looking for with this second part is "reason" or something. Are you trying to ask "what is the reason for the countless stars," or "what is the reason for snowflakes having variety?" The word "logic" doesn't apply in the context you used it there at all.

As a fun side note for Star Trek fans, Spock always used the word "logical" incorrectly as well. What he meant to say 99% of the time was "reasonable." The terms mean entirely different things.

No. I meant 'logic'. What is the logic of infinite variety and profusion?

Can you uncover the inherent logic of the universe without being conscious?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
The fact of the matter is, though, that there is a difference between objects and properties. Conflating the two is nonsensical -- in the sense that literally, it means nothing to do so.

We can step back and look at a steel ball and consider it in its totality. Sure. Yet it's still the case that if we talk about the steel ball and we refer to the total thing in one instance (e.g., "steel ball"), we are talking about an object. If we talk about the ball's steelness, we are talking about a property.

It would not make sense to say the ball is "steelness," as in the entire category of being steel. It only makes sense to speak of the ball as possessing steelness, of being a particular instance of a thing which exemplifies the property of steelness.

Conflating things with properties, again, doesn't convey any information or meaning. Might as well just type "sdlkjghsdljgh" instead.

What is it before you 'consider' it, before you give it a name, before you start to talk about 'properties'? IOW, what is it perse?
 
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