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What Causes or Motivates the Anti-scientists?

tas8831

Well-Known Member
In my experience, it most commonly extends from a type of insecurity.
Same here. And in my experience, quite often revolves around money, since they see 'success' in life as how much you get paid - "I make 80K/yr as a welder and I have no student loan debt to pay off. Ya'll are just dumb librals'"
Yeah... I know a guy - made his first million a couple of years ago. Now owns a construction company making hotels out west. Flunked out of college. Complains about taxes and 'takers' and likes to talk about how he never relied on handouts. Doesn't mention that he married into money, daddy-in-law underwrote/co-sgned his business start-up loans, got most of his business contacts from daddy-in-law's real estate business, etc. Doesn't mention how he received a big payout when daddy-in-law died, etc. But thinks its dumb to go to college....
What's sad is that the vast majority of those workshops and the like just give the simple messages of "LGBTQ people exist and deserve to be treated like anyone else". But to folks of a more fundamentalist bent, that's akin to "shoving it in their faces and forcing them to accept their lifestyles".
Exactly. Reminds me of a Cal Thomas column I used to have in a scrap book - he rambled on about how the fact that abortion is legal is 'shoving' it down their throats of religious conservatives. Sort of like how speed limits shove safety down the throats of people that want to drive at unsafe speeds.
Fortunately I think that's mostly a generational thing and will soon be a relic of a bygone era.
Fingers crossed...
That's always funny coming from conservatives....as if suddenly they see making a good living as a bad thing.
Of course. It is that double standard thing. Just like how Megan Rapinoe almost stepping on the flag that someone else dropped when she was looking in a different direction proves she hates America, but righty Trump fan Kid Rock cutting holes in flags to wear like ponchos to mop up his greasy sweat at concerts just shows how patriotic he is...

DK7HPTrVoAAR6gQ.jpg

Yup. If conservatives "self deport" (to paraphrase Romney) from higher education, they can't then turn around and complain about how liberal higher education is!
Exactly.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Same here. And in my experience, quite often revolves around money, since they see 'success' in life as how much you get paid - "I make 80K/yr as a welder and I have no student loan debt to pay off. Ya'll are just dumb librals'"
I do a lot of public meetings and it's fairly common for members of the public to start off their comments with "Now I'm not an educated scientist like you" or "Maybe I didn't go to college, but I know a thing or two". That sort of talk is a clear indication of insecurity, obviously stemming from the difference in social status/public perception between those who have a college education and those who don't.

To be clear, I always try and go out of my way to make sure everyone understands that their comments and input is valued, regardless of their education.

Yeah... I know a guy - made his first million a couple of years ago. Now owns a construction company making hotels out west. Flunked out of college. Complains about taxes and 'takers' and likes to talk about how he never relied on handouts. Doesn't mention that he married into money, daddy-in-law underwrote/co-sgned his business start-up loans, got most of his business contacts from daddy-in-law's real estate business, etc. Doesn't mention how he received a big payout when daddy-in-law died, etc. But thinks its dumb to go to college....
Yup, I have a friend whose just like that. Started his own home remodeling business, did well during the housing boom, lost it all when the market crashed, got bailed out by his dad, and always goes on and on about "self reliance" and how the gov't needs to stop helping people. It's bizarre.

Exactly. Reminds me of a Cal Thomas column I used to have in a scrap book - he rambled on about how the fact that abortion is legal is 'shoving' it down their throats of religious conservatives. Sort of like how speed limits shove safety down the throats of people that want to drive at unsafe speeds.
Lol.....Cal Thomas....'nuff said. :triumph:

Of course. It is that double standard thing. Just like how Megan Rapinoe almost stepping on the flag that someone else dropped when she was looking in a different direction proves she hates America, but righty Trump fan Kid Rock cutting holes in flags to wear like ponchos to mop up his greasy sweat at concerts just shows how patriotic he is...
One psychological study I read some time ago found that conservatives tend to be much more tribal than non-conservatives. I've relied on that understanding a fair bit to process a lot of the hypocrisy I see among conservatives.
 

dad

Undefeated
Let me say at once I do not mean here people who reject just one particular scientific theory or set of facts. The motives of the man or woman who objects only to evolutionary theory or to vaccines can often enough be easily guessed at.

But I'm curious about what I take as both a relatively recent phenomena and a somewhat more difficult one to figure out the causes of. That's what I call in this thread "Anti-science", the rejection not just of one or two scientific theories and sets of facts, but more broadly "anything science".

About the phenomena being recent. I readily grant there have always been people who rejected the sciences, but I think that up until relatively recent times their number and influence was less significant than it is today. For instance, a half century ago, the notion they might influence government policies or how well the sciences were funded and taught in the public schools was easily dismissed. Beyond that, the sciences were on an order of magnitude more respected than they are today. I think that is a fact.

So what causes or motivates the anti-scientists?

I would point first and foremost to the long history in America of deeply rooted anti-intellectualism. But surely, there's more to it than that. That anti-intellectualism is so much stronger today. Why?

Many people point to the cultural changes of the 1960s and 70s that seem so closely associated with the rise of the Baby Boomers. Among other things, they dramatically boosted the popularity of the notion that "truth is relative", sometimes expressed as, "truth is personal" As I understand it, that notion was once more or less confined to fringe intellectuals, but the Baby Boomers mainstreamed it, made it -- if not actually respectable -- then fashionable.

A third often mentioned cause is religious based antagonism to the sciences. But that strikes me as superficial. When you look more closely, you first discover it's not all Christian denominations at fault. The old mainstream denominations have mostly remained pro-science. The antagonism is coming overwhelmingly from only factions of Christianity, such as the Southern Baptists, and the non-denominational churches. Groups that usually identify themselves as Evangelicals.

But I would not stop there. No matter how deeply ingrained is the reflex to "blame the Christians", I think the truth is deeper than "the Christians". Again, looking closely, it becomes undeniable that those Christian groups most opposed to the sciences originate in the culture of the South, which has been the longest and most virulently anti-intellectual section of the country.

And if you really wanted to understand it, you could trace Southern anti-intellectualism back to the South's earliest English settlers, who predominantly came from the Cavalier class of England, a class that favored only educating elites, and then only minimally. So, the notion "it's a Christian thing" strikes me as superficial and poorly informed. It would be more accurate to say Southern Christianity only gave Southern anti-intellectualism its main focus: Evolution.

One last point about the South: Even if what I said is true, the question remains, "Why did Southern anti-intellectualism pick only recently to become so virulent? Any answer to that should mention air conditioning. After WWII, air conditioning made the South more attractive to migrants from other parts of the country such that today four in ten Americans live there. Such a large chunk of people will inevitably have an influence.

However! Least you think it's all nicely decided now, consider this: Is Southern Culture broadly anti-scientific, or only narrowly anti-evolution? I myself think the former, but I believe the latter is still arguable.

Is that enough to explain it? American anti-intellectualism (especially Southern anti-intellectualism) combined with the mainstreaming of thoughtless trash like "truth is relative" by the Baby Boomers?

What do you think?

And beyond that, is there any good chance anti-science will wane in the future? Last puzzle of the day: What caused the Baby Boomers to embrace such a hollow, gutless notion as, "Truth is relative"?
I would think that science is not really the issue, but false pseudo science that are called science and are basically just a belief system used to attack other belief systems.
 

dad

Undefeated
I do a lot of public meetings and it's fairly common for members of the public to start off their comments with "Now I'm not an educated scientist like you" or "Maybe I didn't go to college, but I know a thing or two". That sort of talk is a clear indication of insecurity,.
Think of it like this. You are speaking at a Catholic conference of Bishops and clergy and guest speakers. The issues discussed are rampant pedophilia and unnatural sexual practices in the church and why this may be the case.
You may start off speaking with some disclosure that you are not really involved in their system, but that you do know a thing or two about the issues...etc.

The reasons many people are not immersed in science officially may be that they consider science for the most part just like I might consider the Catholic church system...a belief system or religion not worthy of a life devoted to memorizing and practicing it's tenets.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
One psychological study I read some time ago found that conservatives tend to be much more tribal than non-conservatives. I've relied on that understanding a fair bit to process a lot of the hypocrisy I see among conservatives.

I wish I had saved the article, I found it very interesting-
it was to the effect that the difference between lib and con
is really about the size of the perceived tribe.

I thought it made sense. In simple terms, libs want
open borders coz their tribe goes world wide, and
cons say nah, it is a exclusive tribe, "country is full".

The two tribes hate eachother for being tribal in
different ways that are both anti american.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Think of it like this. You are speaking at a Catholic conference of Bishops and clergy and guest speakers. The issues discussed are rampant pedophilia and unnatural sexual practices in the church and why this may be the case.
You may start off speaking with some disclosure that you are not really involved in their system, but that you do know a thing or two about the issues...etc.

The reasons many people are not immersed in science officially may be that they consider science for the most part just like I might consider the Catholic church system...a belief system or religion not worthy of a life devoted to memorizing and practicing it's tenets.
No, it's not that at all. The people I hear from aren't there to bash science; they're just there to provide input to the processes I'm leading.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I do a lot of public meetings and it's fairly common for members of the public to start off their comments with "Now I'm not an educated scientist like you" or "Maybe I didn't go to college, but I know a thing or two".
Classic...
Yup, I have a friend whose just like that. Started his own home remodeling business, did well during the housing boom, lost it all when the market crashed, got bailed out by his dad, and always goes on and on about "self reliance" and how the gov't needs to stop helping people. It's bizarre.
A bit off topic, but I read a while back about some studies dealing with this weird 'I made this' mentality - these studies found that the more successful a person is, the less they recognize/acknowledge the help they got along the way. Hence Trump is the best at everything. Hence the millionaire guy I know never needed help. Hence the guy you know who talks about 'self-reliance.' My guy was openly appreciative of his newly found wealth when he got married 25 years ago... Now? Its all about HIS hard work...
Lol.....Cal Thomas....'nuff said.
True...
One psychological study I read some time ago found that conservatives tend to be much more tribal than non-conservatives. I've relied on that understanding a fair bit to process a lot of the hypocrisy I see among conservatives.
Just one study? :D
I've also seen studies concluding that cons are much more susceptible to the backfire effect, which we see on here daily...
Oh well... what is a fellow to do?:shrug:
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Classic...
It's common even among folks who are are agreeing with me.

A bit off topic, but I read a while back about some studies dealing with this weird 'I made this' mentality - these studies found that the more successful a person is, the less they recognize/acknowledge the help they got along the way. Hence Trump is the best at everything. Hence the millionaire guy I know never needed help. Hence the guy you know who talks about 'self-reliance.' My guy was openly appreciative of his newly found wealth when he got married 25 years ago... Now? Its all about HIS hard work...
Yep. I've attempted to have discussions about exactly this with my friend and he gets extremely defensive. It's like he's running away from his own history.

[quotte]Just one study? :D
I've also seen studies concluding that cons are much more susceptible to the backfire effect, which we see on here daily...
Oh well... what is a fellow to do?:shrug:[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah....the backfire effect. What a bizarre phenomenon. I wish I knew how to counter it.
 

dad

Undefeated
No, it's not that at all. The people I hear from aren't there to bash science; they're just there to provide input to the processes I'm leading.
If they are addressing an audience that is riddled with hypocrites to the God they claim to serve and pedophiles, if they do not do a little bashing of the system, then they are not of good heart and mind.

If I address the beliefs of origin 'sciences' and do not do a little bashing, neither would I be!
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Im not anti science. I do question inferences and have my doubts on science issues of commonly accepted theories. I enjoyed the book 'The Big Picture' by Sean Carroll, and i can easily see why someone would be a naturalist. Im not a naturalist though, but i deeply respect methodological naturalism because it takes knowledge very far. I do wonder if other methodologies would be useful besides that one.

I have been lead down many paths of dead end pseudo sciences. And i see a ton of bad information out there.

There are many scientists who make it a cause to teach science to lay people. And that has opened my mind quite a bit.

For ultimate questions of existence science will have a lot to say, but i do not think their will be a final say on the matter.

Anti scientists do NOT want science to render cherished beliefs obsolete. Unfortunately there is so much internet information out there that is bad, that any person can easily find stuff to feel justified in their beliefs. It becomes a game of sides, and who do you trust!, Instead of gathering all the relevant information from all sides.
 
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