What causes people to choose what they choose?

[joelr]

Actually, interestingly, if more of those Trump believers would read through the common bible, they would eventually realize they are directly going against clear instructions given in the texts when they put their hopes and trust and faith in a political leader.

That isn't how it works. When a person is open to believing things like savior Gods on faith-based evidence they are primed for transferring those beliefs elsewhere.
People who are critical minded are not believing something without good evidence. They will investigate, examine sources, not allow emotions to dictate belief. Even if it's uncomfortable.
Someone reading scripture may one day read Islamic scripture and decide this may indeed be an update? Or follow a new prophet. Jesus said no new prophets? Right but y'know, since things have gone so sideways God changed his mind. There are over 1 billion Muslims. 100,000 or more in the new, new updated Yahweh sect, Bahai.
Skepticism, rational thinking, is a barrier to accepting beliefs until they show real evidence and even then a willingness to update your beliefs if new information is presented.

The text that says do not put their hopes and trust and faith in a political leader is still wrong? You should put some hopes and trust in leaders that have demonstrated that there are reasons to trust them. Critical thinking is not blindly following anything. We are seeing it in anti-vax, all the Trump issues, the Mexico wall, and all types of conspiracies.
But the thinking was some of the "Trump will save us" people are people who were maybe religious and just moved away from it but are still not rational thinkers.

 

[Brian2]

We don't have any basis in scripture or physics to assume that Nature is a clockwork Universe (though there is a highly speculative theory of that kind, 'superdeterminsm', which hasn't any unique supporting evidence). Instead, it looks in physics more likely than not that Nature doesn't have a set future.

This would mean there isn't a fixed future to foresee.

That the future then would not yet exist in any sense of any kind.

God of course has planned some things He intends to do (action verb), and He can state these things ahead of time, and then work to accomplish them and will surely succeed.

We may not understand how God can see the future, but that does not mean He cannot see it, even if the universe is not deterministic and even if we have free will.
I have shown a couple of places where God just knows the future. There are many more.
If you can believe only what is currently reasonable in physics that is a problem you have.

 

[Sheldon]

That is correct.
That is not to say that G-d cannot intervene if He wills, but overall, it is our choices that determine the future.

You set the future was "set in stone" so how can we change what cannot be changed?

 

[Brian2]

You set the future was "set in stone" so how can we change what cannot be changed?

We cannot change what cannot be changed. We can however pray and God can act because of that. Our prayer and His acting having all been known by God, or if you like, "set in stone".

 

[muhammad_isa]

We cannot change what cannot be changed. We can however pray and God can act because of that. Our prayer and His acting having all been known by God, or if you like, "set in stone".

That's right.
Both the past and the future are "set in stone".
The question is, what "sets" them?

The difference is that we can "see" the past but not the future.
G-d can see both, but does not "set" it.

 

[Sheldon]

We cannot change what cannot be changed.

Well that's a pretty vapid tautology?

We can however pray and God can act because of that.

I don't believe you, there is no evidence that prayers have any disenable effect beyond making people feel better. Also when intercessory prayer has been been subjected to proper testing, and found to have no discernible effect.

Our prayer and His acting having all been known by God, or if you like, "set in stone".

The point was that @muhammad_isa claimed the future is set in stone, and that we can change it, which is a clear contradiction. Something is either "set in stone" or it can be changed, but it cannot be both.

 

[Sheldon]

That's right.
Both the past and the future are "set in stone".

Then it cannot be changed, and this would negate any notion of free will, as by definition something that is set in stone, cannot be changed, since it means something that is fixed, and unchangeable.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then it cannot be changed, and this would negate any notion of free will, as by definition something that is set in stone, cannot be changed, since it means something that is fixed, and unchangeable.

You intentionally cut off the rest of my post.

 

[halbhh]

That isn't how it works. When a person is open to believing things like savior Gods on faith-based evidence they are primed for transferring those beliefs elsewhere.

Ah, understandable mistake. Your guess turns out exactly the opposite of how it really works. If a person really does believe in Christ, then they will read and listen to what He says in the text, and then won't put their faith in Trump, and won't try to use Christ as if just a flag, for politics.

But, I can see how it would seem the other way to you. After all, you see the (horrific) example of the individuals on Jan 6 trying to invoke Jesus to cover up the evils and pretend to give legitimacy to their idol like political hero.
So, it would seem somehow real Christianity, on appearances.
(until one pays more close attention to more of what Christ says in the texts)

 

[night912]

That's right.
Both the past and the future are "set in stone".
The question is, what "sets" them?

Going with this hypothetical, then obviously God is/was what set them in stone. To say that the one who created the past, present and future is not the one who is responsible for doing so, is illogical.

Regarding to what's being discussed, I've asked this question to those who holds the same position as you, why are you now dismissing God as being the creator?

 

[halbhh]

We may not understand how God can see the future, but that does not mean He cannot see it, even if the universe is not deterministic and even if we have free will.
I have shown a couple of places where God just knows the future. There are many more.
If you can believe only what is currently reasonable in physics that is a problem you have.

Ah, I'm thinking you haven't seen what is in many of my posts above (Like this one: What causes people to choose what they choose? post 652 ) -- so that you don't quite know my actual view to respond to unless you saw those.

Also, I think your response is reasonable certainty if you don't consider the scriptures I pointed out in my posts in this thread (which you can find by searching on my name or seeing recent activity).

 

[Sheldon]

You intentionally cut off the rest of my post.

The rest of your post had no relevance to my point, which you have intentionally ignored. That anything set in stone, as you claimed the future is, cannot by definition be changed, as you also claimed.

The law of non contradiction

So since the future cannot both be changed by our perception of choice or free will, and be set in stone, you are making an irrational argument.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The rest of your post had no relevance to my point..

Rubbish !
If something is "set in stone", it means it must be set by something.
..and that's what the rest of my post was addressing.

 

[joelr]

Ah, understandable mistake. Your guess turns out exactly the opposite of how it really works. If a person really does believe in Christ, then they will read and listen to what He says in the text, and then won't put their faith in Trump, and won't try to use Christ as if just a flag, for politics.

But, I can see how it would seem the other way to you. After all, you see the (horrific) example of the individuals on Jan 6 trying to invoke Jesus to cover up the evils and pretend to give legitimacy to their idol like political hero.
So, it would seem somehow real Christianity, on appearances.
(until one pays more close attention to more of what Christ says in the texts)

Why Christian voters want more politicians like Donald Trump
Why Christian voters want more politicians like Donald Trump

First not all Christians read scripture enough to know every quote from Jesus. But the right supports Trump. Claiming that "that isn't real Christianity" is your interpretation. Clearly not everyones.
But also I believe critical thinking is not taught in the education system. I do not think people understand how to apply critical thinking to issues like politics.
Second not all people looking to Trump as a savior are automatically Christian. There are many non-practicing or ex-Christians who may be open to other forms of salvation.

 

[joelr]

We cannot change what cannot be changed. We can however pray and God can act because of that. Our prayer and His acting having all been known by God, or if you like, "set in stone".

That doesn't align with reality. As a generalization the most frequent and intense praying is when people are ill. Not just from the person who is sick but from all loved ones and friends. Even casual associates if the person is young or was in a tragic accident.
However mortality rates are not reflecting anything except probability. If a certain disease has a 50% mortality rate for a certain age group then the more cases you look at the more it will show 50%.
That is very consistent. If a deity were helping people then disease statistics would be impossible to map.
Another problem with things being set in stone is the future cannot be determined. Determinism was an idea that was thought to be realistic in the Newtonian era. This was the mechanistic era and the universe was compared to a machine. So if you knew all the parts and could do the calculations you could predict the future.
The indeterminism of quantum mechanics completely ended this thinking. Hidden variables that secretly control things are also ruled out. If you search "hidden variables/quantum mechanics" you will see it's ruled out (I think by Bells theorem?)

If things are all set in stone from a God point of view it's just like rewatching a movie an infinite amount of times? You know every thing that's ever happened or going to happen, no surprises, no new knowledge, no new insight, nothing. It isn't even like watching a movie because you are not restricted by time. It's very similar to just being stuck in one instant of time.