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What convinced you that Evolution is the truth?

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Our perceptions are obviously different.
Explain?
To see an embryo from the meeting of sperm/egg through the completion of a human life in the form of a baby who cannot take care of itself only shows me that this cannot come about by natural circumstances starting a long, long time ago,
Instinct, the life supporting it's next generation is keeping itself alive thru the generations.

Every life that lived during adam/eve...cain and able...... noah...etc... are here NOW, alive and in the flesh. When you understand the light, the spirit, the unveiling is available.
but that the properties of growth from conception must come from someone beyond any "scientific" description.
OK, the descriptions have been unequal and yet similar, since the creation of the 'word'
Now yes, the cells and particulars can be described in scientific terms, such as DNA and RNA, but this does not mean they came about by evolution.
The step's recorded biologically.
Growth does not equate to evolution either. Another form, perhaps, is a seed planted in the ground. A large tree might come from that seed. It really goes against the theory of evolution.
No, the environment can cause altercations. The life wants to survive just by being in process. ie.... the light.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Hello IANS, hope you and your family are well. How’s the weather down there? My wife and I are thinking about moving to Central America somewhere… we’re sick of the cold!

Came from a mind? You're guessing. Maybe it did, or maybe it didn't.
And I could say to you, “Came from natural processes? You’re guessing.” (Especially since natural processes have no thinking ability, that I’ve seen.)
And are you describing creation of the kinds when you refer to first parents in various taxa? If so, we know that that never happened.
Various taxa”? No… I specifically said “Family”, a taxon classification that (usually; some could be Order-level) exhibits more complex phenotypes unique to that Family / Order… such as the protrusible (extending) claws found in Felidae, & not found in Canidae. And the digit arrangement on their paws.



There were no first parents for anything that reproduces sexually including man.
Well, I believe there were, and I’ll tell you why: what pressures could exert such an evolutionary change from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction? That makes little sense, from a strictly evolutionary point of view! To transition from a less-energy-consuming act with vastly more offspring (asexual), to an energy-expending act with a smaller reward (ie., fewer offspring)… evolution would not do it.
And yes, you are making incredulity arguments when your case is merely that you can't imagine how the tree of life came to be naturalistically.
Life is incredible, with its diversity & intricate machinery.

More people should consider it incredible.

But that is not entirely what my ‘case’ hinges on.

And the tree of life, seems to have started as a bush.


If the universe can only be one way to appear as it does, then the deity merely discovered those laws, and built a universe according to them.
Not when He can suspend those laws.
The way I see it, those laws exist for our benefit; so we can exist. And ultimately, after eons pass & technology improves, we will inhabit & fill this galaxy, then on to others.

The following might sound too much, but adaptation / evolution as we’ve observed it, with more & more species appearing & making gradual changes over time, is for us to enjoy.

The Bible, as I understand it — a big part of it — is about restoring mankind to perfection; IOW, to live forever.
Seeing new animal species appear, would always help to make our lives more enriched, with new things to see & enjoy.

Take care.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
And I could say to you, “Came from natural processes? You’re guessing.” (

You could say that, but it would indicate a disappointing lack of originality on your part.



Especially since natural processes have no thinking ability, that I’ve seen.)

True, but the ability to act doesn't require thinking - witness Washington, D.C....

But seriously, do the clouds need to "think" before they start raining? Does gravity need to "think" before you trip and fall?
Cause and effect requires no intelligent agent.


Well, I believe there were, and I’ll tell you why: what pressures could exert such an evolutionary change from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction? That makes little sense, from a strictly evolutionary point of view! To transition from a less-energy-consuming act with vastly more offspring (asexual), to an energy-expending act with a smaller reward (ie., fewer offspring)… evolution would not do it.

That is a very good question, and one that scientists are still working on.
But we can say that sexual reproduction does carry a distinct advantage - the introduction of new genetic material leads to diversity among offspring.

You're absolutely right in that what those specific pressures could have been is a mystery - but in scientific thinking, mysteries are the beginning of the process - not the end.


Life is incredible, with its diversity & intricate machinery.

More people should consider it incredible.

But that is not entirely what my ‘case’ hinges on.

It is wondrously impressive, isn't it?


And the tree of life, seems to have started as a bush.


A bush, like a tree, starts from a single seed.
Your article simply states that evolution is actually more complex than scientists thought so.

Not when He can suspend those laws.
The way I see it, those laws exist for our benefit; so we can exist. And ultimately, after eons pass & technology improves, we will inhabit & fill this galaxy, then on to others.

That's the way you see it. And if the way you see it is correct, it would mean that we are, quite literally, the most important things in this universe.
Quite flattering - but not especially convincing.



The following might sound too much, but adaptation / evolution as we’ve observed it, with more & more species appearing & making gradual changes over time, is for us to enjoy.

The Bible, as I understand it — a big part of it — is about restoring mankind to perfection; IOW, to live forever.
Seeing new animal species appear, would always help to make our lives more enriched, with new things to see & enjoy.

Take care.

So... you wish to be perfect - don't we all?
And again, you see the entire universe and the variety of life is meant "for us to enjoy..." as... what? Playthings? Again, quite flattering. I understand the appeal but don't share it.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And I could say to you, “Came from natural processes? You’re guessing.”
We know that natural processes occur. The guess and leap of faith would be to say that only natural processes are presently or have always been involved, but we don't need to make that claim. We say that there is insufficient evidence that anything more was or is involved, and we don't add supernaturalistic elements and explanations to our scientific narratives (or even naturalistic elements) if they are not needed to account for some observation. Dark matter and dark energy are good examples of natural elements introduced into astronomy and cosmology when new findings surfaced that required the positing of something new. Maybe dark energy is God. Maybe it's conscious, purposive, and volitional. If so, we'll wait for some observation to arise that requires such a hypothesis to account for it.
what pressures could exert such an evolutionary change from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction?
What could stop it if it were possible to occur and conferred a survival advantage?
To transition from a less-energy-consuming act with vastly more offspring (asexual), to an energy-expending act with a smaller reward (ie., fewer offspring)… evolution would not do it.
I'm not sure what that means, but I'd say that you're guessing again. You don't know that and can't know that.
Not when He can suspend those laws.
The fine-tuning argument implies that there was only one way or perhaps only a few very precisely constrained ways to set the physical parameters for nature such that a universe capable of generating life and mind, and that this required an intelligent designer to set up the universe. The counterargument is that if this is true, one is not describing the source of those physical constraints, but rather, an entity that discovered them and used that knowledge to fashion a universe.

While that seems logically possible - who can say that it didn't happen? - it's not the only logical possibility or even the most likely one according to Occam's Razor, but it does describe a god that is less than omnipotent. It also means that it is inappropriate to call such a deity supernatural, since it would be subject to the laws of nature just like we are, not its author.
Life is incredible, with its diversity & intricate machinery.
Yes, but only in a metaphorical sense. It inspires awe, but here it is, so we know that it exists. But when one uses the phrase incredulity fallacy, he is not claiming that anything is literally incredible. In fact, he's proposing the opposite - that it is credible that life arose spontaneously and naturalistically because the possibility cannot be ruled out and it appears to be possible. The fallacy is to say that life looks too complex to not have been designed, therefore it was.

And one introduces a special pleading fallacy when he claims that living cells are too complex to exist undesigned and uncreated, and then posits something more complex that was allegedly uncreated and undesigned to account for it.
Hello IANS, hope you and your family are well. How’s the weather down there? My wife and I are thinking about moving to Central America somewhere… we’re sick of the cold!
Hi, HC. The weather is good. We're going through a cold snap now, where the lows are getting below 50 deg F.

1707059287236.png


People who move to Central America generally tout Beliz and Costa Rica, and a little further south, Panama and Ecuador. seem to appeal to expatriates. Mexico has been good for us. It's been almost fifteen years now. Good luck in your searching. Where are you now?
 
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Agent Smith

Member
It's as much a philosophical conundrum as it is a scientific one: What does it mean to be "alive"?

We can make a list of characteristics, but that's not the same as a definition.
It's quite unfortunate then, possibly fortunate too, at the same time, that we, in this case, don't know. It could get easier, as time passes by, but again, this is mere speculation; a lot of things have gone from as easy as ABC to as tough as a rhino's hide over the last few decades/centuries.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
It's quite unfortunate then, possibly fortunate too, at the same time, that we, in this case, don't know. It could get easier, as time passes by, but again, this is mere speculation; a lot of things have gone from as easy as ABC to as tough as a rhino's hide over the last few decades/centuries.

Nothing unfortunate about it, IMO - the more we learn, the more we see how much more there is to learn.

I suppose it all depends on how large or small a world you want to live in. Personally, I want it BIG - chock full of things to make us say, "Hmm... there's something I never saw before; let's check it out!"

You would think that most religious types would feel the same - after all, the greater the world, the greater the God who created and runs it all, right?
Sadly, no - too many of them seem to want a small universe with a small god to go with it.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Evolution is part of the atheist manifesto (an alternative to God did it)
There is no atheist manifesto. I certainly don't follow one.
I just don't believe in god(s).

Are you not aware that a ton of religious folks also accept the fact of evolution? You don't seem to be, given what you've said here.
and theists are well-aware of this fact
You mean, they made it up.
and hence creation "science" an alternative to the alternative.
It's not science at all. It's like "alternative facts," which are not facts at all.
Also, explain why an evolutionary biologist, viz. Richard Dawkins, is at the head of so-called militant atheism (I strongly condemn this label, because it distracts from what atheism really is, an above-all rational, hence good enterprise).

Atheists don't have leaders that we worship. That's a religious thing that you're transferring onto us.

Atheism is lack of belief in god(s). That's it.
What gibberish? Would you say an atom or a molecule is alive? Clearly reduction (reducible complexity) has a limit i.e. irreducible complexity is true, but for better/worse, not at the level theists would have liked (the bacterial flagella and the human eye are simplifiable).
Irreducible complexity has never been demonstrated to actually be a thing.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no atheist manifesto.
Agreed that atheists have no such document, but you may know that that title has been used:

1707159756291.png

It's not science at all. It's like "alternative facts," which are not facts at all. Atheists don't have leaders that we worship. That's a religious thing that you're transferring onto us.
You may be misjudging Agent Smith. His writing style, while interesting and artistic, makes him difficult to track. I think he largely agrees with people like you and me, but it took me reading several of his posts to conclude that, and I'm still not sure.
Irreducible complexity has never been demonstrated to actually be a thing.
And this would be a good example of that. I think he's referring fundamentally indivisible entities like electrons, neutrinos, quarks, not biological processes.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Agreed that atheists have no such document, but you may know that that title has been used:

View attachment 87893
Thanks for the info. Perhaps weirdly, I've never read any of these.

Uh oh, am I a bad atheist? You'd think I would have at least heard of the Sam Harris essay.
You may be misjudging Agent Smith. His writing style, while interesting and artistic, makes him difficult to track. I think he largely agrees with people like you and me, but it took me reading several of his posts to conclude that, and I'm still not sure.

And this would be a good example of that. I think he's referring fundamentally indivisible entities like electrons, neutrinos, quarks, not biological processes.
I think you may be right. I'm going to re-read. Thanks!
 

Agent Smith

Member
To those who deigned to reply to my comments, believers and nonbelievers ...
I remain unconvinced that the problem of irreducible complexity has been solved or even addressed in a does-it-justice manner. I wish we had an expert on board, who could clear up the matter in a way satisfactory to all parties. I have a basic, high-school level knowledge of biology and one particular memory file intrigues me - grainy, white page, a beaker, and mention something called a primordial soup.[/I]
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Well I don't claim to be an expert either but in 2004 Behe demonstrated a pathway to what he would have called an irreducibly complex protein.

Simulating evolution by gene duplication of protein features that require multiple amino acid residues

from the abstract:
Gene duplication is thought to be a major source of evolutionary innovation because it allows one copy of a gene to mutate and explore genetic space while the other copy continues to fulfill the original function. Models of the process often implicitly assume that a single mutation to the duplicated gene can confer a new selectable property. Yet some protein features, such as disulfide bonds or ligand binding sites, require the participation of two or more amino acid residues, which could require several mutations. Here we model the evolution of such protein features by what we consider to be the conceptually simplest route-point mutation in duplicated genes.
In simple terms, Michael Behe hypothesized "Irreducible Complexity" as changes that require more than one mutation to create a new functional protein and effectively demolished his own idea in his own paper. (this is actually an example of Behe doing good science)
The idea is still crowed about by creationists but is not considered a valid problem by biologists, rather things that appear to be irreducibly complex are things that are produced by indirect pathways rather than multiple simultaneous jumps. Though not entirely Behe"s doing, his hypothesis, though flawed did inspire work and understanding of new pathways in evolution.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Evolution is part of the atheist manifesto (an alternative to God did it) and theists are well-aware of this fact and hence creation "science" an alternative to the alternative.

Evolution is just plain old common sense-- material things change over time.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Evolution is just plain old common sense-- material things change over time.
And the theory of biological evolution is just an explanation of how and why of this common sense observation of diversity and change in living organisms.

As for being an "atheist" theory, it is also the understanding of the majority of god believers. The only people who seem to have an issue with it are those insist on magical beliefs as an explanation for everyday events.
 
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Marwan

*banned*
God is the Greatest, God is the Greatest, i testify that there is no god or deity but God, all praise and glory belongs to God, the Most Glorious, the Most Merciful!
-------

Atheism is just a negative belief that turns out to be false. Science has nothing to do with truth and reality, it is a false construction of reality. The whole thing is based on illusion. It has nothing to do with Reality.

How to step out of the illusion and become aware of the only thing that is not an illusion but rather an Absolute aka God aka The Truth ?

That's something you need to figure out for yourself Angie ;)
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
God is the Greatest, God is the Greatest, i testify that there is no god or deity but God, all praise and glory belongs to God, the Most Glorious, the Most Merciful!
-------
Claims requiring evidence.
Atheism is just a negative belief that turns out to be false.
Atheism is a lack of a belief in god(s). So, not a belief.
Science has nothing to do with truth and reality,
Science is the "systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained,"

So, sounds like it has a lot to do with reality, right?
it is a false construction of reality.
How so?
The whole thing is based on illusion. It has nothing to do with Reality.
See above.
How to step out of the illusion and become aware of the only thing that is not an illusion but rather an Absolute aka God aka The Truth ?

That's something you need to figure out for yourself Angie ;)
Well that was pretty anti-climactic.

Can you tell us what this has to do with how you are convinced that evolution is a fact of reality?
 

Marwan

*banned*
Claims requiring evidence.

Atheism is a lack of a belief in god(s). So, not a belief.

Science is the "systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation, experimentation and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained,"

So, sounds like it has a lot to do with reality, right?

How so?

See above.

Well that was pretty anti-climactic.

Can you tell us what this has to do with how you are convinced that evolution is a fact of reality?
Both your atheism and science and theory of evolution is falsehood.
 

Marwan

*banned*
Demonstrate that, instead of just claiming it.

Try actually responding to what I typed to you.

Thanks.
Verse: [52:35-36] أَمْ خُلِقُوا مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ الْخَالِقُونَ أَمْ خَلَقُوا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بَل لَّا يُوقِنُونَ - Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.

Begin there.

Godspeed.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Verse: [52:35-36] أَمْ خُلِقُوا مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ الْخَالِقُونَ أَمْ خَلَقُوا السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ بَل لَّا يُوقِنُونَ - Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.

Begin there.

Godspeed.
That doesn't demonstrate anything.

You're going to need to make an argument, and respond to my points.
 
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