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What Convinces You That Jesus Did Not Rise from the Dead?

aservantsentout

New Member
I do not want to believe anything just because it's what I've always believed. I grew up in a charismatic Christian home. I used to believe in creation; but, now, I believe in evolution.

So, I'm presenting to you (in the next post) with a research paper I wrote about the resurrection of Jesus. I sincerely want to hear from you guys about this, especially those who have thought through the issue. Please, poke holes, ask questions, present new information, etc.

For me, faith is very important, and that's why I don't want to believe things that are flat out wrong. If God is, then I want to please Him, and I want to orient my life around that. But I want the truth, whatever it is. I want to follow fact, no matter how disorienting it may be, no matter how much disillusionment may come my way as a result.

Whatever our backgrounds, we'll all in the same boat. We're all going to die, and I want to know what's true. So, I have an open mind.
 

aservantsentout

New Member
Thesis: During an investigation of the early Christian movement, it will become evident that solid grounds for faith in the resurrection should be proclaimed for the sake of others’ faith in Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Before the resurrection of Jesus is established, it may be wise to establish the existence of this Jesus. Both supporters and detractors described Jesus as a man (Mark 14:71; 15:39; Luke 23:4,14; John 18:29; 19:5; 7:46; {cf. 7:51;} 9:16, 24; 10:33; 11:47; {cf. 11:50;} 18:17; Acts 5:28; 1 Tim 2:5) in the public eye (e.g. Mark 1:33; 2:1-2; 2:7; 4:1; 5:21; 6:34; 6:53-56; 7:31-33; 8:27-34; 10:1; 10:46; 11:4-18; 12:37; 14:43; 15:8-15; 3:20; 4:1; cf. 5:21; 10:1; 3:7-8; cf. Mark 7:24) in Palestine during the First Century (Luke 2:1-7) who taught something new (e.g. John 13:34), performed unexpected spectacles (Matt 8:26-27; 9:6; 12:27; 14:29; 15:31; 16:9; Mark 3:11; Luke 7:22; John 11; cf. Matt 9:4; 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 11:17; John 1:50), received a violent death (Matt 27; Mark 15; Luke 23; John 19) and inspired a post-mortem movement (Acts). Far from claiming the non-existence of Jesus, opponents, such as the Jewish authors of the Babylonian Talmud, describe the knowns as negatives. According to the author of Sanhedrin 107b, when this man in the public eye performed the unexpected and taught something new, “Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and led Israel astray.” (Bock 59) Sanhedrin 43a offers the following description of his death, miracles, and doctrine: “On the eve of Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, ‘’He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.’” (Bock 60; Emphasis Added) According to opponents, the “apostacy” spread rapidly - after the death of Jesus. Writing about Nero’s “choicest punishments” of “Chrestiani,” Cornelius Tacitus explains,

“The source of the name was Christus, on whom, during the command of Tiberius, reprisal had been inflicted by the procurator Pontius Pilatus; and, though the baleful superstition had been stifled for the moment, there was now another outbreak, not only across Judaea, the origin of the malignancy, but also across the City, where everything frightful or shameful, of whatever provenance, converges and is celebrated.” (284)

According to Suetonius, by the time of Claudius, “[h]e banished from Rome all the Jews, who were continually making disturbances at the instigation of one Chrestus.” (318) By late AD 111, a perplexed Pliny submitted the following report to Emperor Trajan, highlighting “...the number indicted, for there are many of all ages, every rank, and both sexes who are summoned and will be summoned to confront danger. The infection of this superstition has extended not merely through the cities, but also through the villages and country areas...” (279) As one historian, N.T. Wright, remarks, “Never before had there been a movement which began as a quasi-messianic group within Judaism and was transformed into the sort of movement which Christianity quickly became. Nor has any similar phenomenon ever occurred again.” (15) Wright continues, noting that “... the early church by its very existence forces upon us the question which we, as historians, must ask: what precisely happened after Jesus' crucifixion that caused early Christianity to come into being?” (16)

What happened, according to the earliest Christians, is that many witnessed Jesus’ body alive again after it had been crucified. Jesus had a body (1 Peter 2:24; Luke 23:52) with bones (John 19:36), hands (John 20:25), fingers (Mark 7:33), feet (Matthew 28:9; Mark 5:22), a side (John 19:34), a face (Mark 14:65; Matthew 26:27), eyes (John 17:1) and a head (Matthew 27:29), as well as clothing (Mark 5:27). In this body, Jesus was born (Matthew 1:18), pierced (Mark 14:65), beaten, slapped and spat upon (Mark 15:19; Matthew 27:30; Matthew 26:67), flogged (Matthew 19:1), “killed” (Acts 5:30), and buried (Matthew 50:59). Most importantly, in this body, Jesus was resurrected (Acts 5:30), bearing the scars from the crucifixion on his arms and side (John 20:24-28). Before His crucifixion, Jesus ate and drank (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34; John 13:26); Jesus ate and drank “after he rose from the dead” (Acts 10:41). As N.T. Wright notes, the language is crystal clear: “The word 'resurrection' and its cognates, in Hebrew or Greek, is never used to denote something other than this position [i.e. a return to bodily life after the state of being dead]. The belief can occur without the word, but never the other way round.” (179).
When the early apostles made the claim of witnessing Jesus’ resurrection, either, (a) they really did believe the claim themselves or (b) they did not believe the claim. As an example in favor of (b), speaking of “the witnesses” as “people who are not in good repute with us,” “the great German thinker” Reimarus argued, “The senate at Jerusalem has distinctly warned us against them, saying, that these disciples came to the grave secretly, by night, and stole away the body of Jesus, and that now they were going about, proclaiming that he had arisen from the dead.” (38) First, if the disciples really desired to perpetuate their messianic movement, it would be odd for them to assert the messiah’s resurrection and ascension (unparalleled claims for a messianic movement) rather than to assert some kind of family succession (a common practice in contemporary messianic movements). N.T. Wright observes the following:

“If we suppose that Jesus of Nazareth had simply been executed as a messianic pretender, and that his younger brother had become a strong and powerful leader among his former followers over the next thirty years, someone would have been bound, given the climate of the times, to suggest that James himself was the Messiah. But nobody ever did.” (560)
It is difficult to reconcile Reimarus’ assertion with the apostles’ behavior. In their recent work on the resurrection, Gary R. Habermas, Ph.D. and Michael Licona, Ph.D. report, “From the early martyrdoms of Stephen and James the brother of John as well as the imprisonments and sufferings of Peter, Paul, and others, the disciples became well aware that publicly proclaiming Jesus as risen Lord in certain times and places made suffering and, perhaps, martyrdom inevitable.” (35) Nonetheless, by their persistent behavior, they chose to die for their claim: “The disciples' willingness to suffer and die for their beliefs indicates that they certainly regarded those beliefs as true... Liars make poor martyrs.” (35 with Emphasis in Original) It is difficult to imagine what the disciples could have done in addition to martyrdom to indicate their sincerity.

Even though they were sincere, they could have been sincerely mistaken in their belief that Jesus was alive again from the dead. First, it is theoretically possible that Jesus only appeared to have died, just as a fainted man might. In response to the swoon theory, David Strauss penned the following in 1892:

“It is impossible that a being who had stolen half-dead out of the sepulchre, who crept about weak and ill, wanting medical treatment, who required bandaging, strengthenings and indulgence, and who still, at last, yielded to his sufferings, could have given to the disciples the impression that he was a Conqueror over death and the grave, the Prince of Life, an impression which lay at the bottom of their future ministry.” (665)
Dr. Habermas and Dr. Licona add that advances in medical science over the last few decades have deepened our appreciation for the intensity of the trauma induced by “the nature of scourging and crucifixion” (76). If it is not reasonable to maintain that this sincere belief of the disciples in Jesus’ death was the result of a misperception, it is only reasonable to maintain that their belief was the result of correct perception; in other words, Jesus died.

Even though Jesus did die, it is theoretically possible that Jesus only seemed to be alive again, just as a vivid hallucination might seem actual. Dr. Habermas, featured in Lee Strobel’s investigative work in regard to this particular hypothesis, and his colleague find it difficult to identify the interactions with Jesus in the Gospels as hallucinations, given their nature and their number. Just as a dream by its nature cannot be shared, so also “a hallucination [by its nature] cannot be shared.” (82) However, “the earliest witnesses, and indeed all of them we know of, taught that several of Jesus' post-mortem appearances were to groups.” (83) Furthermore, the number of interactions - along with the depth and variety of those interactions, which included individuals who had never followed Jesus - make their identification with hallucinations even more difficult. The researchers conclude, “It pushes credulity beyond reason to regard every last one of these appearances as hallucinations. ...In fact, there are probably more refutations of this theory than any other.” (85) If it is not reasonable to maintain that the disciples’ sincere belief in their interactions with a resurrected Jesus was the result of a misperception, then it is reasonable to maintain that this belief was the result of correct perception; in other words, Jesus did rise from the dead.

(See Next Post for Part 2...)
 
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aservantsentout

New Member
...
This resurrection reaffirmed the disciples’ faith in Jesus as Lord. Before Jesus had died, the disciples had already concluded that Jesus was “the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16; cf. Mark 8:29; Luke 9:20; 24:21), and Jesus had publicly identified Himself as “equal with God” (John 5:18). It is logical, then, that, after placing his fingers on the marks from the nails in Jesus’ hands and spear in Jesus’ side, Thomas would exclaim, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)

Likewise, in their presentation of their belief to others, the resurrection of Jesus reinforces the identity of Jesus as the “one to redeem Israel” (Luke 24:21). On the day of Pentecost, in the first recorded sermon, Peter does mention in passing that “Jesus of Nazareth [was] a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst...” (Acts 2:22) However, the focus of the message is their claim of resurrection in the backdrop of messianic prophecies, climaxing with the conclusion: “Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36) Furthermore, obedience to this certainty results in salvation: “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” (Acts 2:38-39; cf. v. 40-41) In this sermon, the evidence - their eye-witness interaction with Jesus - for certainty in the resurrection was proclaimed for the sake of others’ faith in Jesus Christ unto salvation.
This pattern of presentation of the eye-witness interactions may have been an assumed part of the proclamation of Jesus as Lord. In Acts 18:4-5, the reader discovers, “And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks. When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus.” In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul refers back to this visit: “Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.” Then, Paul reminds his original audience about the details of his content, when he “reasoned in the synagogue... that the Christ was Jesus”:

“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles...” (1 Cor 15:3-8)
When Paul tried to persuade his audience to believe in Jesus as the Christ, he presented the eye-witness testimony in favor of the resurrection of Jesus.

Teachers should imitate Paul’s pattern. Timothy and Silas caught back up with Paul in Corinth when “Paul was occupied with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus” (Acts 18:5). In 2 Timothy 2:1-3, Paul writes, “You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.” Paul wanted to multiply the number of teachers who would preach the gospel (e.g. 1 Cor 15:1-7) and affirm truthfully, “...o we preach and so you believed.” (1 Cor 15:11b)

In conclusion, reason to believe in the resurrection should be presented in evangelistic sermaons so that the audience may believe unto salvation.


Works Cited
Bock, Darrell L. Studying the Historical Jesus: A Guide to Sources and Methods. Grand Rapids: Baker Pub. Group, 2002. Internet resource.

Habermas, Gary R. and Licona, Michael R. The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus. Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, 2004. Internet resource.

Tacitus, Cornelius and Woodman, AJ. The Annals. Indianapolis and Cambridge: Hackett, 2004. Internet resource.

Tranquillus, C. Suetonius, Thomson, Alexander, and Forrester, T. The Lives of the Twelve Caesars. London: George Bell & Sons, York St., Covent Garden, and New York, 1893. Internet resource.

Pliny, the Younger, and Walsh, P.G. Complete Letters. New York: Oxford University Press, 2006. Internet resource.

Reimarus, Hermann Samuel, Lessing, G.E., and Voysey, Rev. Charles. Fragments from Reimarus, Consisting of Brief Critical Remarks on the Object of Jesus and His Disciples as Seen in the New Testament. London and Edinburgh: Williams and Norgate, 1879. Internet resource.

Strauss, Dr. David Frederich and Elliot, George. The Life of Jesus Critically Examined. Second Edition. London and New York: Swan Sonnenschein & Co. and Macmillan & Co, 1892. Internet resource.

Wright, N T. The Resurrection of the Son of God. London: SPCK, 2003. Internet resource.

Notation: All quotations from Scripture were directly from the English Standard Version.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
“It pushes credulity beyond reason to regard every last one of these appearances as hallucinations. ...In fact, there are probably more refutations of this theory than any other.”

Here is one aspect I'd start with.

What "pushes credulity" is the claim that Jesus died publically, with great fanfare(including solar events and damaging earthquakes), then reappeared (a bit scarred, but healthy), to hundreds of people. But nobody noticed! There was no enormous out-break of Christianity. That could have been crushed by Caiaphas and Pilate, but there is no record of that either. Outside of the Gospel, nobody seems to have noticed this, literally, ground shaking event.

I simply cannot believe that happened.

So the best explanation for this being recorded in the Gospels is something else. Jesus died, but His legend and Cause did not. The legend grew over many years, to finally include events that couldn't possibly have happened. But gullible people believed them, and have ever since.

Tom
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
When the gospels were written, NOBODY, not a single person from the people or the priests or the Romans ever came forward to say "HEY that never happened!"
We can therefore take them as..er.. gospel..:)
 

aservantsentout

New Member
Thank you all for sharing.

Luis, what leads you to the conclusion that Jesus never existed as a literal person?

I appreciate your thoughtful response, Columbus. What leads you to believe that Christianity did not arise almost immediately and spread rapidly?

There may be evidence that I am not factoring into my understanding of the events in the 1st Century. It seems that the belief had spread into the Roman world within thirty years. For example, Paul writes 1 Corinthians (from what we understand) around 57 A.D.

And this is a really important point that you raised, Columbus. Here's why: people who see someone die are going to be disinclined to believe that he rose from the dead. So, did this belief start to spread right away - while there were people around who had seen him executed. One of the things that's really significant to me is the idea that these people - whether we want to call them ancients or whatever - saw the crucifixion, and they believed the apostles. So, the public nature of the crucifixion and the proximity of the belief's proclamation to the actual events described is really important in deciding the proposition's veracity. So, I am grateful that you're bringing up this point. Feel free to elaborate.
 
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aservantsentout

New Member
Shuttlecraft, thank you for your statement. That is really impressive to me in the historical data that the opponents of Jesus confirm the existence of Jesus (and more than just his existence). So, that's strong evidence in favor of his existence; I am open minded, but it'd be very difficult to convince me that he did not exist at all.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
When the gospels were written, NOBODY, not a single person from the people or the priests or the Romans ever came forward to say "HEY that never happened!"
We can therefore take them as..er.. gospel..:)

Some thinking points:

1. Most of those people, priests, Romans would have been dead by the time the gospels were written - since people then were lucky to make it to age 40.

2. The gospel stories and Christianity did their best well away from their point of origin, where they would suffer the least contesting from naysayers. If gospel stories were uncontested they would have taken over the home region very quickly.

3. The gospels and Christianity were not seen as a threat or powerful movement until 100+ years after Jesus' death - doubtful it was seen as worth the effort of even contesting. It was a small blip on the mystery cult scene of that time.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
There may be evidence that I am not factoring into my understanding of the events in the 1st Century. It seems that the belief had spread into the Roman world within thirty years. For example, Paul writes 1 Corinthians (from what we understand) around 57 A.D.

Have you ever posted an E-card on Facebook? Have you ever sent one of those chain forwards that's just riddled with false information?

It's funny how people who agreed with its premise kept on forwarding it and eventually thousands of people saw it, don't you think? It's also weird that only a handful of people who see those crazy things ever say anything about their false information because they don't see them as a threat. Then, suddenly, your realize that half of the people on your friends list have forwarded the same crazy thing... You try and speak up, but it's too late. Whatever was said on the E-card has suddenly taken on a life of its own and your friends look to you as being the crazy one...

Religion.
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
And this is a really important point that you raised, Columbus. Here's why: people who see someone die are going to be disinclined to believe that he rose from the dead. So, did this belief start to spread right away - while there were people around who had seen him executed. One of the things that's really significant to me is the idea that these people - whether we want to call them ancients or whatever - saw the crucifixion, and they believed the apostles. So, the public nature of the crucifixion and the proximity of the belief's proclamation to the actual events described is really important in deciding the proposition's veracity. So, I am grateful that you're bringing up this point. Feel free to elaborate.

I see this as simple. Had the story in the Gospels been accurate there would have been a huge explosion of followers, especially in Galilee and Jerusalem. But there is no record of any such thing, quite the opposite.
In fact, had Paul not picked up the ball and run with it, I doubt that there would be a Jesus movement at all.
I think the Gospels finally got written partly because Paul was starting something big. Jesus' real followers wanted it known that Paul never met the Guy.

Tom
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Servant, are you aware that none of the authors of the gospels ever met Jesus, that, in fact, there are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus or His actions at all?

Welcome to the forums, by the way.
 
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jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I see this as simple. Had the story in the Gospels been accurate there would have been a huge explosion of followers, especially in Galilee and Jerusalem. But there is no record of any such thing, quite the opposite.
In fact, had Paul not picked up the ball and run with it, I doubt that there would be a Jesus movement at all.
I think the Gospels finally got written partly because Paul was starting something big. Jesus' real followers wanted it known that Paul never met the Guy.

Tom

This is why many refer to it as the Religion of Paul.

Take "Paul's Letters" out of the New Testament and there's really nothing left.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Here is one aspect I'd start with.

What "pushes credulity" is the claim that Jesus died publically, with great fanfare(including solar events and damaging earthquakes), then reappeared (a bit scarred, but healthy), to hundreds of people. But nobody noticed! There was no enormous out-break of Christianity. That could have been crushed by Caiaphas and Pilate, but there is no record of that either. Outside of the Gospel, nobody seems to have noticed this, literally, ground shaking event.

I simply cannot believe that happened.

So the best explanation for this being recorded in the Gospels is something else. Jesus died, but His legend and Cause did not. The legend grew over many years, to finally include events that couldn't possibly have happened. But gullible people believed them, and have ever since.

Tom

Personally, I stand unconvinced that Jesus existed as a literal being.

^These, 100%.

There's no real evidence of the historicity Paul or the rest of the Jesus posse from the NT, either, but that's another can of worms. :)
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I'm not sure if aservantsentout is coming back. I hate to pile on a thread. But it has been a couple of days, so I have something else to say.

Before Jesus had died, the disciples had already concluded that Jesus was “the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16; cf. Mark 8:29; Luke 9:20; 24:21), and Jesus had publicly identified Himself as “equal with God” (John 5:18).

According to standard Christian theology Jesus was crucified and resurrected as a sacrifice for our sins. Jesus' Death and Resurrection saved us from Original Sin. Judas was the single most important human being in bringing about the Plan for Salvation. If he hadn't started the events referred to as "The Passion of the Christ" somebody else would have had to do it, or there would be no Salvation. But Jesus chose Judas, and gave him an order to do it, according to the Gospel. So why is Judas a bad guy?

Now, I can understand why the Apostles would be horrified and angry at first. They didn't know that Jesus was God and had a Plan for Salvation. But Jesus was with them for forty days after the Resurrection. If the Apostles had understood what Jesus was doing they would have understood that Judas was the linchpin in God's Plan For Eternal Salvation! But they didn't understand this, according to the Gospels.

So, if the Apostles didn't understand that Jesus' Death and Resurrection was necessary, ordained by God, and facilitated by Judas, then where did this teaching come from?
The obvious explanation is that it was invented long after Jesus was dead and no longer able to explain what He was really about. There is no other reasonable explanation. The Resurrection was invented long after Jesus' death.

This really isn't hard to see, if you want to believe what is true.

Tom
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
When the gospels were written, NOBODY, not a single person from the people or the priests or the Romans ever came forward to say "HEY that never happened!"
We can therefore take them as..er.. gospel..:)

LOL.

Wow! And NOBODY from that time came forward to say that the Smurfs did not take over the world using flying, smurfberry powered jet cycles.............so we can take the 2BC Smurf invasion as 'Gospel' also I guess.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I do not want to believe anything just because it's what I've always believed. I grew up in a charismatic Christian home. I used to believe in creation; but, now, I believe in evolution.

So, I'm presenting to you (in the next post) with a research paper I wrote about the resurrection of Jesus. I sincerely want to hear from you guys about this, especially those who have thought through the issue. Please, poke holes, ask questions, present new information, etc.

For me, faith is very important, and that's why I don't want to believe things that are flat out wrong. If God is, then I want to please Him, and I want to orient my life around that. But I want the truth, whatever it is. I want to follow fact, no matter how disorienting it may be, no matter how much disillusionment may come my way as a result.

Whatever our backgrounds, we'll all in the same boat. We're all going to die, and I want to know what's true. So, I have an open mind.

First of all, you deserve no recognition for "believing" in evolution. That's merely a tiny baby step in becoming a thinking human being.

As for the resurrection, you'll need to make up your own mind and heart. It's a very useful theology in that it embodies the Christian message that God will destroy the dysfunctional ways of the world and renew it completely in the pattern of the death and resurrection of Jesus. You can certainly accept this theology and not intellectually believe that Jesus was resurrected in the bodily sense.

If so, the pattern still works. Jesus really died - that much is true, and with him everything that he was died with him. Yet after his death his disciples and apostles spread his teachings of renewal and peace all over the world - and he is alive in those teachings today. These teachings are transformational if he was resurrected or not.

But spiritually if you embrace the resurrection by faith, you experience that promise and live in it in a uniquely Christian way.
 
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