What Convinces You That Jesus Did Not Rise from the Dead?

[gsa]

To answer the original question, the most damning evidence is found in the gospels (notably, the earliest gospel, Mark) which does not contain any account of bodily resurrection, just an empty tomb which frankly is more suggestive of bodily assumption into heaven. The next piece of damning evidence is found in the writings of Paul, which also eschews bodily resurrection in favor of apparitions/visions. You only arguably get to bodily resurrection with much later sources, and even then there is some ambiguity.

So given that we do not have much evidence of the afterlife, much less bodily resurrection, and given the historical development of the gospels, I'm not inclined to believe that it is an accurate description of some historical event. As angellous suggests, however, it can still be accepted as an interpretation of Jesus' death.

 

[aservantsentout]

I want to thank everyone for sharing their thoughts. I have been off the forums for a bit. I plan to respond soon and to process the ideas that you all have put forward. Please, continue to share, and I plan to respond with questions, etc., soon. Thank you again.

 

[columbus]

I want to thank everyone for sharing their thoughts. I have been off the forums for a bit. I plan to respond soon and to process the ideas that you all have put forward. Please, continue to share, and I plan to respond with questions, etc., soon. Thank you again.

Oh good. It had been a week since you logged in, I was disappointed.

Glad you're back. I look forward to the conversation.

Tom

 

[aservantsentout]

Good to be here, Columbus! This is really important to me on a personal level. Thank you for your thoughts.

I am going to process what everyone's said so far. I am planning to put the different arguments against the resurrection into a Google document that you all have been sharing. Think about them. Post them here with some questions, etc.

 

[Valjean]

Welcome back -- I was afraid we'd scared you away.

 

[oldbadger]

I do not want to believe anything just because it's what I've always believed. I grew up in a charismatic Christian home. I used to believe in creation; but, now, I believe in evolution.
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Whatever our backgrounds, we'll all in the same boat. We're all going to die, and I want to know what's true. So, I have an open mind.

Hi..... Welcome to RF!

....... so you want to know what's true.... about Jesus. Yes?
Apart from the last part of the last chapter of Mark's Gospel, that record is probably the most accurate if you remove the 'evangelical inserts' which are scattered through it. And that will leave you with the story of a craftsman who was also a natural healer, who picked up john the Baptist's mission for a year, failed to raise insurrection in Galilee and so attempted to appeal to the vast masses of Temple visitors at one of the great feasts. They liked his ideas, from a distance, but never supported him. He was arrested, tried, convicted, and sent to the Roman Prefect. He might have been executed, or he might have been pardoned, the other Jesus, the brigand, being executed. This might be how he returned to Galilee on his way North.... ordered out of the country .......

So I believe there was a Jesus, but I would never accept that there was a Christ.

 

[roger1440]

Do I understand you correctly? You are using the Bible to prove the Bible. :help:

 

[Sapiens]

When the gospels were written, NOBODY, not a single person from the people or the priests or the Romans ever came forward to say "HEY that never happened!"
We can therefore take them as..er.. gospel..

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, just as evidence of absence is not absence of evidence, and so on.

 

[columbus]

Do I understand you correctly? You are using the Bible to prove the Bible. :help:

It's the Christian thing to do.
Tom

 

[roger1440]

When the gospels were written, NOBODY, not a single person from the people or the priests or the Romans ever came forward to say "HEY that never happened!"
We can therefore take them as..er.. gospel..

How do you know no one came forward?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What Convinces You That Jesus Did Not Rise from the Dead?

Because it's medically impossible for a person to come back to life after being brain dead for three days.

 

[Sapiens]

What Convinces You That Jesus Did Not Rise from the Dead?

Because it's medically impossible for a person to come back to life after being brain dead for three days.

Not if you're a Christian ... brain death is something you get used to.

 

[columbus]

Far from claiming the non-existence of Jesus, opponents, such as the Jewish authors of the Babylonian Talmud, describe the knowns as negatives. According to the author of Sanhedrin 107b, when this man in the public eye performed the unexpected and taught something new, “Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and led Israel astray.” (Bock 59) Sanhedrin 43a offers the following description of his death, miracles, and doctrine: “On the eve of Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, ‘’He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.’” (Bock 60; Emphasis Added)

Have you ever substantially investigated the non biblical claims for Jesus' existence?

I've never seen one with any credibility.

Doesn't it strike you wrong? Hundreds of people, the 11, and Jesus combined didn't manage to do anything that anyone noticed at the time? The Romans didn't notice that Jesus rose from crucifixion?

Christians expect me to believe that the people who actually witnessed Jesus' resurrection did nothing that was recorded by anyone but the anonymous gospel authors decades later.

I don't believe that accurately reflects God.

Tom

 

[Bunyip]

The best evidences as I see it in this case are;

1. The man claiming to be the risen Jesus was not recognisable as Jesus. That he was a fraud is far more
likely than that a man had not only risen from the dead - but had changed his face at the same time.

I think it safe to assume that a person who claims to be risen from the dead, but does not look at all like the dead person is either lying or mad. That he really did rise from the dead and inexplicably changed his appearance is simply not a viable possibility.

2. If a man walked from his tomb after being crucified for 8 hours or so, the more likely assumption would be that he was not actually dead when placed in the tomb.

3. Nobody living at the time was impressed enough to record this event. A ressurection witnessed by hundreds of thousands of people appears to have gone completely unrecorded by anyone alive at the time.

 

[jonathan180iq]

The best evidences as I see it in this case are;

1. The man claiming to be the risen Jesus was not recognisable as Jesus. That he was a fraud is far more
likely than that a man had not only risen from the dead - but had changed his face at the same time.

I think it safe to assume that a person who claims to be risen from the dead, but does not look at all like the dead person is either lying or mad. That he really did rise from the dead and inexplicably changed his appearance is simply not a viable possibility.

2. If a man walked from his tomb after being crucified for 8 hours or so, the more likely assumption would be that he was not actually dead when placed in the tomb.

3. Nobody living at the time was impressed enough to record this event. A ressurection witnessed by hundreds of thousands of people appears to have gone completely unrecorded by anyone alive at the time.

Ya know, to be fair, I can see how a single guy not being in his tomb anymore could be overlooked by Historians. What I cannot, however, see happening, is Historians missing the whole solar eclipse/splitting veil/earthquake/zombies walking around part... I have intelligent, rational, well-to-do friends who take this stuff at face value like it's real.

I have been a huge fan of zombies and the dystopian genre in general since I was in primary school. I would love nothing more than to have to have to realistically deal with the bodies of the dead rising from the their graves and walking around. But even I admit that it's absurd and well beyond the realm of possibility. If one points to nothing else in the bible as being a fallible - to admit this stuff actually took place when the bearded wonder was hanged is ludicrous.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I do not want to believe anything just because it's what I've always believed. I grew up in a charismatic Christian home. I used to believe in creation; but, now, I believe in evolution.

So, I'm presenting to you (in the next post) with a research paper I wrote about the resurrection of Jesus. I sincerely want to hear from you guys about this, especially those who have thought through the issue. Please, poke holes, ask questions, present new information, etc.

For me, faith is very important, and that's why I don't want to believe things that are flat out wrong. If God is, then I want to please Him, and I want to orient my life around that. But I want the truth, whatever it is. I want to follow fact, no matter how disorienting it may be, no matter how much disillusionment may come my way as a result.

Whatever our backgrounds, we'll all in the same boat. We're all going to die, and I want to know what's true. So, I have an open mind.

I believe in the resurrection.. so I guess I go against your heading.
Everything is evolving consciousness. That is it. The resurrection takes place as spirit (short answer).
Things only make sense when your mind and heart is opened.
If it not, then it will not make sense.

So convincing someone of something they know to be true because He reveals it to you, is not something you can doubt. I don't really know how to answer it better. Perhaps this is a lame answer. I will shut up and read some others I think.

 

[Robert.Evans]

What Convinces You That Jesus Did Not Rise from the Dead?

Because it's medically impossible for a person to come back to life after being brain dead for three days.

That is a fair point. There were two Messiahs. One did not die, (the one we read of), one was stoned to death and was resurrected spiritually. That is the scapegoat. Does that answer it? I think so.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Servant, are you aware that none of the authors of the gospels ever met Jesus, that, in fact, there are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus or His actions at all?

Welcome to the forums, by the way.

hahaha... that's funny!

 

[Robert.Evans]

^These, 100%.

There's no real evidence of the historicity Paul or the rest of the Jesus posse from the NT, either, but that's another can of worms.

Yes there is. But I guess it is pointless telling someone like you, right.

 

[Valjean]

Name one.

And don't bother with Flavius or Josephus.