What Day was Jesus Crucified?

[fallingblood]

have you taken into consideration that on this particular year (33ce) the passover was 'a great' passover as John calls it, John 19:31 Then the Jews, since it was Preparation, in order that the bodies might not remain upon the torture stakes on the Sabbath, (for the day of that Sabbath was a great one,) requested Pilate to have their legs broken and the [bodies] taken away
This means that the Passover and Sabbath coincided so it was like having a 'long weekend' rather then a normal 2 day weekend.

"That year the Passover occurred on the sixth day of the week (counted by the Jews as from sundown on Thursday to sundown on Friday). This is evident from John 19:31, which shows that the following day was “a great” sabbath. The day after Passover was always a sabbath, no matter on what day of the week it came. (Le 23:5-7) But when this special Sabbath coincided with the regular Sabbath (the seventh day of the week), it became “a great one.” So Jesus’ death took place on Friday, Nisan 14, by about 3:00 p.m.—Lu 23:44-46." Insight on the Scriptures.

I took that into account and explained it. Also, when talking about the Sabbath, we are talking about the officially celebrated Sabbath, as in sun down on friday to sun down on Saturday.

 

[smokydot]

have you taken into consideration that on this particular year (33ce) the passover was 'a great' passover as John calls it, John 19:31 Then the Jews, since it was Preparation, in order that the bodies might not remain upon the torture stakes on the Sabbath, (for the day of that Sabbath was a great one,) requested Pilate to have their legs broken and the [bodies] taken away
This means that the Passover and Sabbath coincided so it was like having a 'long weekend' rather then a normal 2 day weekend.

Every year the Passover meal was eaten at sundown on the 13th of Nissan,
Passover day was the 14th of Nissan, and
Feast of Unleavened Bread began on 15th of Nissan.

Every year the Day of Preparation for the Feast of Unleavened Bread was Nissan 14th, the day of Passover.

And the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was always a Sabbath, no matter on what day of the week it fell--Sunday through Friday, it was a Sabbath.
Then, because it was a seven-day feast, most of the time a Saturday would fall within the Feast, giving the seven-day Feast two Sabbaths--the first day of the Feast, and the Saturday within the Feast.

Any Saturday occuring within a feast was a great Sabbath,
so the Saturday Sabbath occurring within the seven-day Feast was a great, or special Sabbath.
The year Jesus died, Nissan 15 was on a Saturday Sabbath.
The Day of Preparation was Nissan 14, Passover Friday, and the day Jesus was crucified.

"That year the Passover occurred on the sixth day of the week (counted by the Jews as from sundown on Thursday to sundown on Friday). This is evident from John 19:31, which shows that the following day was “a great” sabbath. The day after Passover was always a sabbath, no matter on what day of the week it came. (Le 23:5-7) But when this special Sabbath coincided with the regular Sabbath (the seventh day of the week), it became “a great one.” So Jesus’ death took place on Friday, Nisan 14, by about 3:00 p.m.—Lu 23:44-46.

" Insight on the Scriptures.

Since the day after Passover (Nissan 15) was always a Sabbath (no matter what day of the week it was--Sunday to Friday),
the Day of Preparation for that Sabbath was always Nissan 14, which was the day of Passover.

Then in addition, you have the nomenclature problem, where the Feast of Unleavened Bread is often called Passover (Lk 22:1).

Although they are two separate and different feasts, because the Day of Preparation for the second feast (Nissan 15) was always on the day of the first feast (Nissan 14), they called them both by the name of the first feast, Passover.

So when John refers to the Day of Preparation for the "Passover,"
he is referring to the day of Preparation (Nissan 14) for the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nissan 15), which feast (Nissan 15) he calls Passover,
but which is not Passover (Nissan 14).
The Day of Preparation to which John is referring is Nissan 14, which is the day of Passover, and the day Jesus was crucified.

The nomenclature problem is not on the radar for fallingblood, so he keeps insisting that because Passover is on Nissan 14,
then John's "Day of Preparation for Passover" has to be Nissan 13.
He doesn't see that because of the common misnomenclature, the Day of Preparation referred to by John is Nissan 14, the day of Passover, and the day Jesus was crucified.

 

[Pegg]

I took that into account and explained it. Also, when talking about the Sabbath, we are talking about the officially celebrated Sabbath, as in sun down on friday to sun down on Saturday.

i hate this subject...it does my head in

ill come back to it once i've got it clear enough to explain

 

[fallingblood]

Every year the Passover meal was eaten at sundown on the 13th of Nissan,
Passover day was the 14th of Nissan, and
Feast of Unleavened Bread began on 15th of Nissan.

This is quite accurate. The Passover meal was prepared on the 13th. This was also called the Day of Preparation for Passover. It was on the 14th, that the meal was eaten. It was a Passover meal, and was eaten on Passover, not the day before as you claimed.

As for the Feast of Unleavened Bread, it wasn't always on the 15th. I've quoted they synoptic Gospels and showed that there understanding was different. The fact is, Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were often interchangeable.

Now, Passover, by Jews, is called the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The observance of Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread have changed. For the longest time, they were used interchangeably. At times, there is evidence they weren't even celebrated. You need to do your history here. Because we are not talking about what the Torah says here because that is not what has always been practiced. We are talking about the celebration in the first century. That is what is important.

Every year the Day of Preparation for the Feast of Unleavened Bread was Nissan 14th, the day of Passover.

Except now, and other times in which Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were grouped into one celebration. Then the Day of Preparation was on the 13th. In other words, it was called the Day of Preparation for Passover. John specially states that it is the Day of Preparation for Passover. To change that is to change what the Gospel is teaching.

And the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was always a Sabbath, no matter on what day of the week it fell--Sunday through Friday, it was a Sabbath.

Do you have a source? The Bible simply said that it was a day of rest. Not that it was the Sabbath. There is a difference between the two. Also, it doesn't solve anything. The Day of Preparation for the Passover was on Friday, the next day, Passover, landed on a Saturday. That explains why it was a special Sabbath.

Again, John specifically states that Jesus died on the Day of Preparation for Passover. And, as I've shown, it would have been impossible for it to be the Passover anyway, as John specifically states that the Passover meal had not been eaten.

The year Jesus died, Nissan 15 was on a Saturday Sabbath.
The Day of Preparation was Nissan 14, Passover Friday, and the day Jesus was crucified.

That is not what John says. For John, as I've shown in my OP, the Passover had not occurred. So it would have been impossible for Jesus to be crucified on a day that had not yet come. That is why John uses the term Day of Preparation for Passover, which is the day before Passover. This is a documented term in Jewish literature. There is no doubt about it. Thus, as John has it, Passover was a Saturday, and that is why it was a special Sabbath.

Since the day after Passover (Nissan 15) was always a Sabbath (no matter what day of the week it was--Sunday to Friday),
the Day of Preparation for that Sabbath was always Nissan 14, which was the day of Passover.

Again, it was not a Sabbath. It was a day of rest; the two are not interchangeable. And scripture simply does not support that idea.

More so, we are talking about the Day of Preparation for Passover. We are not talking about a separate day here, the day of preparation for the Sabbath. The two dates are not interchangeable as you are trying to make them so.

Then in addition, you have the nomenclature problem, where the Feast of Unleavened Bread is often called Passover (Lk 22:1).

Why? Because they were often interchangeable. So then Luke is incorrect? You know what Luke is trying to say better than he does?

Although they are two separate and different feasts, because the Day of Preparation for the second feast (Nissan 15) was always on the day of the first feast (Nissan 14), they called them both by the name of the first feast, Passover.

Not quite. Today, it is just one big holiday, the Feast of Unleavened Bread. That doesn't explain Mark and Matthew though. Both of which states that the day before Passover (or the Day of Preparation for Passover) was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

What you are saying though simply is not found in scripture. And it certainly is not in Jewish literature, which actually does have a lot of play here. And your explanation again doesn't explain why the John states that Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation for the Passover. Again, looking at Jewish literature, we are told that this is the day before Passover, the day in which the sacrificial lamb was slaughtered in the temple.

So when John refers to the Day of Preparation for the "Passover,"
he is referring to the day of Preparation (Nissan 14) for the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nissan 15), which feast (Nissan 15) he calls Passover,
but which is not Passover (Nissan 14).
The Day of Preparation to which John is referring is Nissan 14, which is the day of Passover, and the day Jesus was crucified.

That simply is not true. You are completely ignoring Jewish literature and practice. The fancy foot work that you have to do in order to make your explanation fit is ridiculous. And again, it ignores that the Day of Preparation for the Passover was a specific date that we are told, in Jewish literature, to be the day in which the sacrificial lamb was slaughtered in the Temple.

You have to understand the Temple cult, and it's practices, in order to fully understand John. You can't take John out of a historical context.

More so though, as I indicated in my OP, John 18:28 specifically tells us that Passover had not yet occurred. For your explanation to work, you have to ignore that verse. So how can it possibly be Passover, if John tells us that Passover had not yet occurred? It couldn't have. That is why we should take John at his word, that he is talking about the Day of Preparation for the Passover, the 13th, the day in which the Passover lamb was slaughtered.

The nomenclature problem is not on the radar for fallingblood, so he keeps insisting that because Passover is on Nissan 14,
then John's "Day of Preparation for Passover" has to be Nissan 13.
He doesn't see that because of the common misnomenclature, the Day of Preparation referred to by John is Nissan 14, the day of Passover, and the day Jesus was crucified.

There is no nomenclature problem for me. I think you're the one who is having the problem. I've offered an in depth look of the account. I've shown that there is no way John could be talking about Passover, as he specifically states that it had not yet occurred. And I've given a brief back ground on what the Day of Preparation for Passover is.

You have not addressed the vast majority of what I've even stated. You keep coming to a very small portion, which you take out of context, both textual and historical.

 

[Pegg]

Every year the Passover meal was eaten at sundown on the 13th of Nissan,
Passover day was the 14th of Nissan, and
Feast of Unleavened Bread began on 15th of Nissan.

i think you might have that wrong. Traditionally the passover meal was eaten at sundown Nisan 14 because that was the night the Isrealites left egypt. the day began at sundown. So Nisan 14 began at sundown of Nisan 13. As soon as the sun sinks below the horizon, it is the Nisan 14.

the days change with the setting of the sun...not with its rising. So really, Wednesay Nisan 13 was the day of preparation and by the setting of the sun on Wednesday, it was time to eat the passover because thats when Nisan 14 began.

 

[EtuMalku]

Well, being this is posted in a "Debates" forum . . . MY answer is "who would know? After all, all this is Mythology, there was no Jesus/Yeshua etc. Dates were aligned to create associations between Pagan faiths and Christian Faiths.

I raised this question in another thread. It was claimed that there were no disagreements in the Bible, or the story of Jesus. As I have done on various occasions, I raised this question, on what day was Jesus crucified?

Upon a close examination of the Gospels, this simple question becomes a little difficult. For reference, the translation I will be using for various verses will be the NRSV.

We will begin with what Mark states (I use Mark as Matthew and Luke used Mark as a source and generally agree).

Mark 14:12 "On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, his disciples said to him, 'Where do you want us to go and make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

In other words, the passage is referring to the Day of Preparation of the Passover; the day before Passover.

Mark 15:25, it still being Passover, tells us that jesus was crucified at nine o'clock in the morning. So clearly, in Mark, and the synoptics follow along, Jesus was crucified on the day of Passover. For instance, Matthew 26:17 states "On the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "where do you want us to make the preparations for your to eat the Passover?"

Another key here is that both Matthew and Mark place the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Break on the day of Preparation of the Passover; the day before Passover. Luke simply lumps it all together: Luke 22:1 "Now the festival of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was near." There is no doubt that in any of these three accounts, the authors are talking about the festival that lasted 8 days.

It should also be noted that the synoptics all portray the last supper as a Passover meal.

Now, moving to John, we see a difference. John 19:14 "Now it was the day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon." The context of this verse is with Jesus' trial before Pilate. At this point, Jesus had already been flogged, and is now getting the verdict; he will be crucified, as stated in verse 16. So for John, is is the Day of Preparation for the Passover; or the day before Passover, that Jesus is crucified. Clearly, there is a disagreement here.

However, this is not the only evidence we have that Passover had not yet occurred. John 18:28 "Then they took Jesus from Caiaphas to Pilate's headquarters. It was early in the morning. They themselves did not enter the headquarters, so as to avoid ritual defilement and to be able to eat the Passover." Clearly, this shows that Passover had not yet occurred. Since, in the account of John, the last supper had already occurred, there is no way it could have been a Passover meal; according to John.

Now, some have claimed that John 19:31 ["Since it was the day of Preparation, the Jews did not want the bodies left on the cross during the sabbath, especially because that sabbath was a day of great solemnity."] points to the idea that it had to be Passover. However, the main reason for the confusion is a lack of understanding of the terms Day of Preparation for the Passover, and day of Preparation. Some try to combine these two phrases to make them both signify one thing. However, that simply can not logically be done.

The Day of Preparation for the Passover is a term that signifies the day before the Passover. On this day, the sacrificial lamb was slaughtered in the temple. The term can only mean one day, and that is the day before Passover.

The day of Preparation was the day before the Sabbath. In other words, it was Friday. The day of Preparation, and the Day of Preparation for the Passover though could be the same day on occasion. It all has to do with when Passover falls. A big mistake that Christians do is assume that it falls always on a Friday. That simply is not true. We place it on Friday because of theological reasons. However, the Jewish Calendar, and our calendar do not sync up perfectly. For instance, Passover this coming year (2011), Passover will begin at sunset of April 19th, which is a Tuesday.

That is why some translations use the term Special Sabbath. When Passover fell on the Sabbath, it was considered a Special Sabbath.

As we can see then, the synoptics and John disagree on the day in which Jesus is crucified.

 

[Falvlun]

Well, being this is posted in a "Debates" forum . . . MY answer is "who would know? After all, all this is Mythology, there was no Jesus/Yeshua etc. Dates were aligned to create associations between Pagan faiths and Christian Faiths.

The point of the thread isn't to actually pinpoint a date, but to point out that the Bible, a book of inerrant repute, seems to give two different dates for his death. Since both cannot be correct, one must be wrong, and therefore the Bible wouldn't be inerrant.

 

[Pegg]

The year Jesus died, Nissan 15 was on a Saturday Sabbath.
The Day of Preparation was Nissan 14, Passover Friday, and the day Jesus was crucified.
Since the day after Passover (Nissan 15) was always a Sabbath (no matter what day of the week it was--Sunday to Friday),
the Day of Preparation for that Sabbath was always Nissan 14, which was the day of Passover.

its quite simple to refute that Jesus died on a sabbath. Mosaic law did not permit anyone to be staked on a sabbath. Criminals had to be removed from their stakes before the sabbath as
Deuteronomy 21:23 states: "...his dead body should not stay all night on the stake; but you should by all means bury him on that day..."

this is why the guards had to break the legs of those on the stakes besides Jesus, because they had to be taken down before sundown...before the Sabbath began.

 

[EtuMalku]

The point of the thread isn't to actually pinpoint a date, but to point out that the Bible, a book of inerrant repute, seems to give two different dates for his death. Since both cannot be correct, one must be wrong, and therefore the Bible wouldn't be inerrant.

Egads, is that what you are trying to do? There is a TON of material providing exact accounts against the ABRAHAMIC bible's content.

*Scholarly material (by the way)

 

[Falvlun]

Egads, is that what you are trying to do? There is a TON of material providing exact accounts against the ABRAHAMIC bible's content.

*Scholarly material (by the way)

It's not actually my thread; I was just skulking around. There do seem to be a lot of contradictions in the Bible, so I thought it strange to focus on this one, especially when it's not so clear cut and easy to understand. Although, I suppose a date contradiction would be more concrete and harder to explain away, than something more qualitative.

 

[fallingblood]

its quite simple to refute that Jesus died on a sabbath. Mosaic law did not permit anyone to be staked on a sabbath. Criminals had to be removed from their stakes before the sabbath as
Deuteronomy 21:23 states: "...his dead body should not stay all night on the stake; but you should by all means bury him on that day..."

this is why the guards had to break the legs of those on the stakes besides Jesus, because they had to be taken down before sundown...before the Sabbath began.

That would only work if it was the Jews who crucified him. They weren't the ones who did though.

The Romans were the ones who crucified Jesus. There is no reason for them to have followed Jewish law, and we have evidence that they didn't.

 

[fallingblood]

It's not actually my thread; I was just skulking around. There do seem to be a lot of contradictions in the Bible, so I thought it strange to focus on this one, especially when it's not so clear cut and easy to understand. Although, I suppose a date contradiction would be more concrete and harder to explain away, than something more qualitative.

I personally focus on this one because it shocked me the first time I saw it. And because of that, it is the one that always sticks in my mind when someone asks for a contradiction in the Bible.

 

[Falvlun]

I personally focus on this one because it shocked me the first time I saw it. And because of that, it is the one that always sticks in my mind when someone asks for a contradiction in the Bible.

Well, Jesus' death is so central to Christianity, and as mentioned, a date can't be explained away as being "metaphorical" or some other common reason given to explain contradictions, so it's actually not a bad choice. But the whole Passover tradition makes it a little obscure to those not well-acquainted.

 

[Pegg]

That would only work if it was the Jews who crucified him. They weren't the ones who did though.

The Romans were the ones who crucified Jesus. There is no reason for them to have followed Jewish law, and we have evidence that they didn't.

actually the romans did a lot to bend to the demands of the jewish people and their customs because they didnt want an uprising...something the jews were prone to do. It was the jews who didnt want the 3 men hanging on the stakes... the romans probably didnt care less, but it was jewish custom that the bodies be taken down before sunset.

The romans made allowances for many jewish customs in the way they governed jerusalem.

 

[fallingblood]

actually the romans did a lot to bend to the demands of the jewish people and their customs because they didnt want an uprising...something the jews were prone to do. It was the jews who didnt want the 3 men hanging on the stakes... the romans probably didnt care less, but it was jewish custom that the bodies be taken down before sunset.

The romans made allowances for many jewish customs in the way they governed jerusalem.

Yet, we know that the Romans crucified others during the Sabbath, or Passover (which is actually more important to many Jews). The fact that the Romans would have crucified Jesus on Passover would show that they would have no problem doing so on a Sabbath.

 

[Pegg]

Yet, we know that the Romans crucified others during the Sabbath, or Passover (which is actually more important to many Jews). The fact that the Romans would have crucified Jesus on Passover would show that they would have no problem doing so on a Sabbath.

well it wasnt the romans who arrested Jesus & it wasnt the romans who demanded the death penalty

The jews were permitted to maintain their culture and practice their religion so long as they paid their taxs' and acknowledged Rome as the rulers of their land. Rome didnt care that Jesus called himself a son of God...only the Jews were concerned over that.

 

[smokydot]

i think you might have that wrong. Traditionally the passover meal was eaten at sundown Nisan 14 because that was the night the Isrealites left egypt. the day began at sundown. So Nisan 14 began at sundown of Nisan 13. As soon as the sun sinks below the horizon, it is the Nisan 14.

the days change with the setting of the sun...not with its rising. So really, Wednesay Nisan 13 was the day of preparation and by the setting of the sun on Wednesday, it was time to eat the passover because thats when Nisan 14 began.

We are agreed.

I am using the dates of calendar days.
Nissan 14 was regarded as from sundown of Nissan 13 to sundown of Nissan 14.
Passover meal was eaten Levitically on Nissan 14, but calendar wise that was Nissan 13.

 

[smokydot]

its quite simple to refute that Jesus died on a sabbath. Mosaic law did not permit anyone to be staked on a sabbath. Criminals had to be removed from their stakes before the sabbath as
Deuteronomy 21:23 states: "...his dead body should not stay all night on the stake; but you should by all means bury him on that day..."

this is why the guards had to break the legs of those on the stakes besides Jesus, because they had to be taken down before sundown...before the Sabbath began.

We are agreed.

I think you misread my statement.
I said, "the year Jesus died, Nissan 15 was on a Sabbath."
I was not saying Jesus died on a Sabbath.

 

[waitasec]

its quite simple to refute that Jesus died on a sabbath. Mosaic law did not permit anyone to be staked on a sabbath. Criminals had to be removed from their stakes before the sabbath as
Deuteronomy 21:23 states: "...his dead body should not stay all night on the stake; but you should by all means bury him on that day..."

this is why the guards had to break the legs of those on the stakes besides Jesus, because they had to be taken down before sundown...before the Sabbath began.

that's odd. didn't it get dark for 3 hours?
wouldn't such an extraordinary event trump this tradition?

 

[fallingblood]

well it wasnt the romans who arrested Jesus & it wasnt the romans who demanded the death penalty

Actually, there was no need to demand the death penalty. Jesus' action in the temple was all that the Romans needed to kill him. And looking at Roman actions, they would have had no problem crucifying a trouble maker, especially during the Passover season.

The jews were permitted to maintain their culture and practice their religion so long as they paid their taxs' and acknowledged Rome as the rulers of their land. Rome didnt care that Jesus called himself a son of God...only the Jews were concerned over that.

The Jews would not have cared. It wasn't blasphemous. At most, it may have made him look insane. However, the Romans would have had a huge problem with the actions Jesus did in the Temple. Especially since it was during Passover, which was already a tense situation.

Also, the claim that Jesus was the King of the Jews would have drawn some attention. And even claiming to be the son of God could have drawn some attention as well, as the emperor was the son of god.

More so, if you look at Jewish Roman history, you would see that Rome wasn't always very considerate. Just look at Pilate's reign.