What Day was Jesus Crucified?

[smokydot]

According to the "Jewish Study Bible" your references make no sense. As a matter of fact Exodus 34:38 does not exist. Ex 34:35 is the last verse

True. . .typo. . . should be Ex 24:38. . .any other typos?

You appear to take verses from the Bible and assign whatever meaning to them that you want. I could take almost any book and read anything into it you wanted.

I'm not doing the assigning. . .the NT Scriptures given there are doing the assigning. . .your quarrel is not with me, it is with the NT.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

True. . .typo. . . should be Ex 24:38. . .any other typos?
I'm not doing the assigning. . .the NT Scriptures given there are doing the assigning. . .your quarrel is not with me, it is with the NT.

Because we know that whatever you say about the NT is just the NT talking, and not you..... despite the obvious differences.

 

[smokydot]

Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to show what are my "obvious" differences from the NT on the types. . .so why don't you just do that right here?

Amazing.
But this may reveal why you don't have access to the truth.
In order to access truth, you must be honest with yourself, God, and others.
It's a simple fact that I'll know more about the NT that you ever will, and I'll keep going beyond you even faster the more you can't face truth.
The issue of "type" is elementary, but even so you have waffled from the OT books to the three specific traditional types.

So, it's as I said. . .you can't easily show my "misinterpretion" of the types in the issue at hand. . .but of course, that's only because they are "traditional types."

I think that you realize in your first list that you have no types (or at least it's not what you thought you were saying).
In the sum of all arrogance - or perhaps pathological lying - you have thought that your lies equal the truth of the NT.

To quote a famous personage who shall remain nameless: just because you say it's true doesn't make it true. . .and more argument about the argument. . .

So. . .that there are types in the OT with corresponding anti-types in the NT is a lie? . .well, that would be in agreement with your erroneous claims here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2285002-post913.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2290408-post950.html -- at your second quote there

Therefore, in light of your erroneous claims there, I showed some "non-existent types" presented by the NT writers, to demonstrate they did, in fact, exist.
Now you maintain that those "non-existent types"--Passover Lamb, Perfect High Priest, once-for-all perfect sacrifice, Mediator, cleansing blood--are "traditional types."

Okay. ..are these also "traditional types?"

EXODUS 32:9-14, 30-34 -- Intercessor -- Heb 7:25

NUMBERS 20:11 (Ex 17:6) -- rock which was struck (crucifixion), and was source of sustenance -- 1 Co 10:4
--------------------(Ex 14:22-29) -- baptized into their mediator, deliverer and leader in the cloud and in the sea, depicting their submission to him -- 1 Co 10:1-2

DEUTERONOMY 18:15,18 -- prophet like Moses who was to come -- Jn 6:4-15, 2:45, 21

JOSHUA 1:5-11 -- captain of our salvation leading God's people into the promised inheritance (salvation) -- Heb 2:10

RUTH 2:20, 3:9, 4:1,14 -- GOEL, kinsman redeemer (Lev 25:48-49) -- Mt 1:21; Gal 4:5; 1 Pe 1:18-19

So where do these types leave your claims in the above links negating types? . .it's clear here that the "obvious differences" from the NT are not mine.

Such self-deceit is impressive, but depressing.
I'd love to have an honest conversation with you.

You engage in too much mockery, ridicule, scoffing, intellectual pride and disdain for me to trust you with that.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?

I requested OT references, which obviously you have not provided.

How can I refute something that isn't even there?

 

[smokydot]

Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?
I requested OT references, which obviously you have not provided.
How can I refute something that isn't even there?

Perhaps someone like Harmonious could point them out to you in the post previous to yours above.

You really don't know what a type is, do you?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Perhaps someone like Harmonious could point them out to you in the post previous to yours above.

You really don't know what a type is, do you?

OK... they can't point out something that doesn't exist.

 

[Harmonious]

Perhaps someone like Harmonious could point them out to you in the post previous to yours above.

You really don't know what a type is, do you?

Would you like me to look at the verses and tell you what they mean to me? They might not mean to me what they do to you.

For instance, the concept of the prophet like Moses. No prophet was EVER just like Moses, and the verse you mentioned refers to any prophet. No one will ever be on Moses' level, though other prophets will receive prophecy.

What, exactly, are you looking for me to say?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Would you like me to look at the verses and tell you what they mean to me? They might not mean to me what they do to you.

For instance, the concept of the prophet like Moses. No prophet was EVER just like Moses, and the verse you mentioned refers to any prophet. No one will ever be on Moses' level, though other prophets will receive prophecy.

What, exactly, are you looking for me to say?

He's trying to pretend that he's fulfilled this list:

True, you don't need to do anything but die (and pay taxes). But if you challenge the claim that "the Bible is a whole,"
then you must show why your assertion, that it is not a whole, is true.
In the absence of that, your assertion is groundless.
Well, for starters, the Bible as a whole shows (is a type, symbol, picture of) who Jesus is. That's why the following are found in its individual books.

In Genesis-------------Jesus is the promised seed of the woman (Lk 1:34; Ro 16:20)
In Exodus--------------Jesus is the Passover Lamb, the Lawgiver, the Intercessor (1 Co 5:7; Mt 5:23-47; Heb 7:5)
In Leviticus-----------Jesus is the High Priest, the atoning sacrifice (Heb 7:23-28)
In Numbers------------Jesus is the smitten rock, the cloud, the pillar of fire (1 Co 10:1-4)
In Deuteronomy------Jesus is the prophet like Moses who is to come (Lk 7:19-20)
In Joshua--------------Jesus is the Captain of our Salvation (Heb 2:10)
In Judges--------------Jesus is the Judge, Lawgiver, deliverer (Jn 5:22; Mt 12:7-8; 2 Co 1:10; 1 Th 1:10)
In Ruth-----------------Jesus is the kinsman redeemer (Lk 1:68-69, 16:17, 24:21; Gal 4:4-5; Jn 3:16-18)
In Samuel--------------Jesus is the trusted prophet (Mt 12:41-42, 21:11, 46; Lk 1:76, 7:16; Jn 7:40)
In Kings----------------Jesus is the reigning king (1 Co 15:25)
In Ezra-----------------Jesus is the faithful scribe (Lk 16:17; Mt 5:18, 24:35)
In Nehemiah----------Jesus is the restorer, the builder of the broken wall (Ro 8:19-22; 2Co 5:17)
In Esther---------------Jesus is the advocate (Ro 8:24, Heb 7:25)
In Job------------------Jesus is the suffering righteous one (Ac 3:14, 7:52)
In Psalms---------------Jesus is the Lord, our Shepherd (Jn 10:14)
In Proverbs------------Jesus is the true wisdom of God (1 Co 1:24)
In Ecclesiastes--------Jesus is the meaningful goal (Mt 16:24-26)
In Song of Songs------Jesus is the lover and bridegroom (Jn 3:28-29; Rev 19:7-9)
In Isaiah----------------Jesus is the Prince of Peace (Lk 1:79; Ac 10:36; Ro 5:1; Eph 2:13-16; 2 Th 3:16; Heb 7:3, 11, 17)
In Jeremiah-----------Jesus is the weeping prophet (Lk 19:41-44)
In Ezekiel--------------Jesus is the wonderful four-faced man (Rev 4:6-8)
In Daniel---------------Jesus is fourth man in the fiery furnace
In Hosea---------------Jesus is eternal husband married to backslider (1 Co 1:1-3, 5:1-2, 11:17-22)
In Joel-----------------Jesus is the baptizer with the Holy Spirit (Mt 3:11)
In Amos----------------Jesus is the burden bearer (1 Pe 2:24)
In Obadiah------------Jesus is the Savior (Mt 1:21, Lk 2:11, Jn 3:17)
In Jonah---------------Jesus is the missionary (Mt 4:17, 23-25)
In Micah---------------Jesus is the messenger with beautiful feet (Ro 10:15)
In Nahum--------------Jesus is the avenger (Jn 5:22, 8:26, 12:31)
In Habakkuk-----------Jesus is the evangelist pleading for revival (Mt 23:37)
In Zephaniah----------Jesus is the Lord Mighty to Save (Heb 7:25)
In Haggai--------------Jesus is the restorer of the lost heritage (Jn 3:16, 18, 36)
In Zechariah----------Jesus is the fountain opened in the house of David for cleansing of sin (Heb 9:14)
Malachi----------------Jesus is the Son of Righteousness rising with healing in his wings (1 Jn 1:7)

These are some of the very tight links among the books of the OT and the NT, establishing that the Bible is, indeed, a whole.

 

[Harmonious]

He's trying to pretend that he's fulfilled this list:

I hear what you are saying. I think I understand what smoky is saying.

What I don't understand is what I'm supposed to be saying. Or, rather, I know what I believe, but I'm not sure what is being expected of me to say.

 

[smokydot]

Would you like me to look at the verses and tell you what they mean to me? They might not mean to me what they do to you.
For instance, the concept of the prophet like Moses. No prophet was EVER just like Moses, and the verse you mentioned refers to any prophet. No one will ever be on Moses' level, though other prophets will receive prophecy.

So you don't think Deut 18:15,18 will ever happen?

What, exactly, are you looking for me to say?

He said there were no OT Scriptures in my post (#1003), and since you didn't seem to have any problem seeing them,
I thought you might do him the favor of pointing out the OT Scriptures given in the types there.

I wasn't suggesting you comment on any of those OT Scriptures, I was just suggesting you might show him where they were located in post #1003.

 

[Harmonious]

So you don't think Deut 19:18 is true?

Um... I don't think that is the verse you were aiming for.

Deuteronomy 19:18
18. And the judges shall inquire thoroughly, and behold, the witness is a false witness; he has testified falsely against his brother;

I think you were aiming for Deuteronomy 18:18
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.

Of course the words are true. But there is nothing in the verse that signifies that any prophet will be of the same magnitude as Moses, but that there will BE other prophets. The immediate context is talking about Joshua, the next prophet and leader of Israel.

He said there were no OT Scriptures in my post (#1003), and since you didn't seem to have any problem seeing them,
I thought you might do him the favor of pointing out the OT Scriptures given in the types there.

I wasn't suggesting you comment on any of those OT Scriptures, I was just suggesting you might show him where they were located in post #1003.

Ah. Very good.

 

[smokydot]

Um... I don't think that is the verse you were aiming for.
Deuteronomy 19:18
18. And the judges shall inquire thoroughly, and behold, the witness is a false witness; he has testified falsely against his brother;
I think you were aiming for Deuteronomy 18:
18. I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.

LOL! . .Yep, you're right. . .too many numbers to type.

Of course the words are true. But there is nothing in the verse that signifies that any prophet will be of the same magnitude as Moses, but that there will BE other prophets. The immediate context is talking about Joshua, the next prophet and leader of Israel.

I appreciate your understanding of that.

Deut 18:15-19 -- "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die. . .["Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." (Ex 20:19)]

"The LORD said to me, . .'I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.' "

The thing about NT anti-types is they require a real OT figure for their pattern (type).
And we have that in either Moses, or Joshua, which would be the pattern for the NT anti-type.

Ah. Very good.

 

[smokydot]

Okay. . .let's review (translate: more argument about the argument) for the test at the end:
(bold type is summary outline of argument)

The issue is: you claim: "There are no types in Scripture - that is an antiquated approach."
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2285002-post913.html

You likewise claim: "The 'types' simply aren't there. The construction of a 'type' in interpreting the Scripture is artificial and reckless."
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2290408-post950.html -- at your second quote there

Those claims were in response to my presentation of a type in each of 34 books of the OT, as a refutation of your denied unity of the whole Bible,
which presentation of these types initiated the argument.
In a vain pre-emptive strike to invalidate all 34 types at once, to remove all grounds for any demonstration that I might make of the unity of the whole Bible,
you denied their very existence and validity, with your foolish, ignorant, reckless and all-encompassing claims about types, above.

So the issue is no longer the individual types themselves, you have reduced the issue simply to their existence and validity. .which takes a whole lot less ink
to demonstrate, because

That means now your foolish, ignorant, reckless and all-encompassing claims are refuted with the demonstration of just one type.
Demonstrating 34 individual types is now irrelevant, when the very existence and validity of types is set at nought in the links above.
I'm not the one who has set the new parameters for this argument. . .your foolish, ignorant, reckless, and all-emcompassing claims did that.

Nevertheless, I demonstrated five from the NT writers--Passover Lamb; High Priest; once-for-all sacrifice for sin; Mediator of the (New) Covenant; sin-cleansing blood.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2290408-post950.html -- at your second quote there

Your response was that these were "traditional types"--I assume that means they don't count. . .which I think is what you call "moving the goal posts."
I'm not sure why the NT writers' "construction of 'types' in interpreting the Scripture" doesn't count, unless it was that they were "artificial and reckless,"
but nevertheless they didn't count, or so it appeared to me.

So, as further refutation, I then demonstrated the following six types from the OT Scriptures (types = pictures of who Jesus is):

EXODUS 32:9-14, 30-34 -- Intercessor (like Moses, and High Priest) -- Ro 8:34; Heb 7:23-25, 9:24; 1 Jn 2:1

NUMBERS 20:11 (Ex 17:6) -- rock which was struck (crucifixion), and was source of sustenance -- 1 Co 10:4
--------------------(Ex 14:22-29) -- baptized into their mediator, deliverer and leader in the cloud and in the sea, depicting their submission to him -- 1 Co 10:1-2

DEUTERONOMY 18:15,18 -- prophet like Moses who was to come -- Jn 6:14-15, 7:40 1:21, 25; Lk 24:19

JOSHUA 1:5-11 -- captain of our salvation leading God's people into the promised inheritance (salvation) -- Heb 2:10

RUTH 2:20, 3:9, 4:1,14 -- GOEL, kinsman redeemer (Lev 25:48-49) -- Mt 1:21; Gal 4:5; 1 Pe 1:18-19


Now the TEST: not counting the five "traditional types," where do these six types leave your claims which so foolishly, ignorantly and recklessly negate all types,
in the above links?

And the BONUS QUESTION for those who have been paying attention: Who is the one guilty of "obvious differences" from the NT regarding types?

Bet you can't pass the test. . .and I hold no hope for your correct answer to the bonus question. . .so how about proving me wrong. . .
you could get at least this much correct on the issue.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The lengths to which you will go to refuse to answer a very simple question truly is remarkable.

In all my years at RF, I've never seen someone delete and edit so many posts on one thread.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Hey smoky -

I can see all your edits (all texts in order of the editing) and deleted posts, just by the accident of being on staff. It was a complete shock and surprise to me that you'd spend so much time misrepresenting yourself.

 

[smokydot]

The lengths to which you will go to refuse to answer a very simple question truly is remarkable.

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black here.

In all my years at RF, I've never seen someone delete and edit so many posts on one thread.

Yeah, in my long posts I correct a lot of typos, punctuation, paragraphing and wording (and in my short posts, too).
Is that relevant to anything, other than trying to be clear, in spite of the length?
It's easier to edit after posting than in the small space allowed before posting.

Since you seldom post more than three words, it's not an issue for you.

 

[smokydot]

Hey smoky -
I can see all your edits (all texts in order of the editing) and deleted posts, just by the accident of being on staff. It was a complete shock and surprise to me that you'd spend so much time misrepresenting yourself.

So show the "misrepresentation."

Back to the dance again. . .movement nine. . .try to dig up whatever you can to discredit the other guy's argument. . .kick up some dust to cloud your ignorance and inability to refute it. . .

The argument speaks for itself and stands on its own merits. . .and you can't refute it. . .
which is the reason for all the diversions from it and attempted detractions of it.

Prove me wrong in the argument below.
(You're not doing too well so far on the test at the end.)

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2296994-post1013.html

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So show the "misrepresentation."

Back to the dance again. . .movement nine. . .try to dig up whatever you can to discredit the other guy's argument. . .kick up some dust to cloud your ignorance and inability to refute it. . .

The argument speaks for itself and stands on its own merits. . .and you can't refute it. . .
which is the reason for all the diversions from it and attempted detractions of it.

Prove me wrong in the argument below.
(You're not doing too well so far on the test at the end.)

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2296994-post1013.html

There's nothing to refute!

Your statements are quite obviously false, and I ask for references so that everyone can know exactly where your falsehoods lie.

Since you are unable to provide references, we must conclude that you're just arbitrarily making stuff up.

And why should we trust that your edits are to correct typos when we've already seen how your edits are done to deceive, misdirect, and misrepresent.

Heck, at this point I'd be happy for you to admit where you plagiarized your original list from.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The reason why smoky can't provide references is exactly what I said... the source that he plagiarized from did not provide them.

And from what I can see, Oral Roberts wasn't speaking about types.

Tony Cooke Ministries - Communion Messages - Passover and Beyond

In Oral Roberts’ classic sermon, The Fourth Man, and later in his book, Christ in Every Book of the Bible, he shared the following insights (modified slightly) about Jesus in the Bible:

In Genesis, He is the Seed of Woman.

In Exodus, He is the Passover Lamb.

In Leviticus, He is our High Priest.

In Numbers, He is the Pillar of Cloud by Day and the Fire by Night.

In Deuteronomy, He is the Prophet like unto Moses.

In Joshua, He is the Captain of our Salvation.

In Judges, He is our Judge and our Lawgiver.

In Ruth, He is our Kinsman-Redeemer.

In 1st and 2nd Samuel, He is our Trusted Prophet.

In Kings and Chronicles, He is our Reigning King.

In Ezra, He is our Faithful Scribe.

In Nehemiah, He is the Rebuilder of the Broken Walls of our Shattered Lives.

In Esther, He is our Mordecai.

In Job, He is our Ever-Living Redeemer.

In Psalms, He is the Lord our Shepherd.

In Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, He is our Wisdom

In Song of Solomon, He is our Lover and our Bridegroom.

In Isaiah, He is the Prince of Peace.

In Jeremiah and Lamentations, He is the Weeping Prophet.

In Ezekiel, He is the wonderful four-faced man.

In Daniel, He is the Fourth Man in the Fiery Furnace.

In Hosea, He is the Eternal Husband, forever married to the Backslider.

In Joel, He is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit.

In Amos, He is our Burden-Bearer.

In Obadiah, He is our Savior.

In Jonah, He is the Great Foreign Missionary.

In Micah, He is the Messenger with Beautiful Feet.

In Nahum, He is our Avenger.

In Habakkuk, He is the Evangelist pleading for Revival.

In Zephaniah, He is the Lord Mighty to Save.

In Haggai, He is the Restorer of the Lost Heritage.

In Zechariah, He is the Fountain Opened to the House of David for the cleansing of sin and uncleanness.

In Malachi, He is the Sun of Righteousness Rising with Healing in His Wings.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I wouldn't make a habit out of lying and stealing - it's bad for credibility and worse before the Lord.

I can effortlessly spot plagiarism from Master's students and you don't do it any better than them.

One can only wonder what else you've stolen. And even worse than this: this isn't the first time for you!