What defines an organized religion?

[Unveiled Artist]

Okay. Here me out.

Here are a couple of definitions or Organized Religion

"Religion in which rules exist to govern the means by which adherents participate in the religion." ~Your Dictionary

"An organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods" ~Learner's Dictionary

What defines organized religion?

I ask because I have not seen a religion that is not organized.

For example, JW has communion, door-to-door evangalization, Saturday Hall Study, activities for family, Bible Study, elders (I believe or Bishops?), leaders of the Hall, classes, and so forth. They are organized.

Baptists are organized. Although varied by Church, the Southern Baptist I'm familiar with has personal testimonies before sermon, sermon, stand up for songs, sit down for sermon, stand up for prayer, sit down for announcements. A lot of down south churches have meals after service. A lot of this is routined. It is organized.

Presbyterians are organized. There are still alot of practices done that is still performed in the Catholic Church. Too many to name now; but, we have a church behind us, and it shocked me that they are against the Church and still have some practices from the Church.

Universalist Uniterians are organized. They still have some practices from the Church before they split. Apart from Catholicism focus, they have specific clothing that pastors wear (like in the churches above), they have chour (stand up), they have sermon (sit down), they have prayer (stand up), and activities, plays, and programs. It's all routined. They are organized.

When I imagine a non-organized church, I think of no buildings, no pre-oranged sermon, no roles in the church no matter the title, no sacraments (Eucharist, Bible), no publications of study (Watchtower, pamplets I see in Baptist Churches, books I see in our library at the Pres. church). I see no order. No heirarchy that dictates how the particular denomination should be set up. I see disorder.

They all have dogma. They all have ceremonies. They all have sacraments.

So, what define's an organized religion?

I ask because it stuns me when we fuss about how bad organize religion is; but, we have our churches, prayer groups, etc that are just as organized as any other church regardless the denomination. Maybe "organized religion" isn't the appropriate word?

 

[Quintessence]

Well, I managed to find a post around here I wrote about this earlier, that is one of the better ones I've churned out about the attributes of organized religion. Ironically, it's also from a thread you created a while ago as well on nearly the same topic.

A paradigm for consideration.

Characteristics of Organized Religion

• Infrastructure. Organized religions have tangible, physical infrastructure to support their various functions. This typically takes the form of common buildings that are utilized by members of the religion, but may also be lands reserved for the adherents.
  • As a consequence of having physical infrastructure, organized religions need to be supported in some way by its members, such as through financial donations or volunteerism.
• Institutions. Organized religions have some sort of governing body that manages the affairs of the religion and its members. The manner in which governing members are selected, as well as how the governing body or bodies operate, vary by tradition.
  • As a consequence of having institutions, organized religions bear a distinction between governing members and "lay" members in terms of status or responsibilities within the tradition.
• Establishment. Organized religions are formally established in some sense or another, or have a set tone for religious functions. The beliefs and/or practices of the religion are codified in some fashion, and typically maintained by both infrastructure and institution.
  • As a consequence of establishment, organized religions have some sort of official doctrine, official creed, or official dogma that represents the group. Acceptance of or alignment with official ideas is a hallmark of membership in an organized religion.

It's worth noting that we shouldn't confuse organized religion with the following: (1) dogmatic religion, (2) fundamentalist religion, and (3) authoritarian religion.

I can't say my perspective on this has really changed from when I wrote this post. By this measure, there are plenty of religions that aren't all that organized. Most Neopaganisms are so poorly organized that ti would be inaccurate to call them organized religions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, I managed to find a post around here I wrote about this earlier, that is one of the better ones I've churned out about the attributes of organized religion. Ironically, it's also from a thread you created a while ago as well on nearly the same topic.



I can't say my perspective on this has really changed from when I wrote this post. By this measure, there are plenty of religions that aren't all that organized. Most Neopaganisms are so poorly organized that ti would be inaccurate to call them organized religions.

lol Oh. My RF break must have made me have amnesia. You can delete if you like.

 

[Quintessence]

Oh no, it's okay to have this thread too. When I read the OP I was like "didn't I make a good post somewhere about organized religion within the last year or something?" Then I decided to try and find it, which turned out to be easier than I thought it would be.

 

[Deidre]

Organized religion is directed and controlled by people. Faith isn't. Granted organized religion was created to support faith, but it has the propensity to lead someone to becoming too legalistic. In and of itself, organized religion isn't 'bad,' but that's how I'd tend to view it. Controlled and directed by people.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Oh no, it's okay to have this thread too. When I read the OP I was like "didn't I make a good post somewhere about organized religion within the last year or something?" Then I decided to try and find it, which turned out to be easier than I thought it would be.

Eh. Happens to the best of us. I get bored, really. I'd like to figure out some productive topics

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Organized religion is directed and controlled by people. Faith isn't. Granted organized religion was created to support faith, but it has the propensity to lead someone to becoming too legalistic. In and of itself, organized religion isn't 'bad,' but that's how I'd tend to view it. Controlled and directed by people.

Hm. We have different views, of course. I haven't really seen religion controling the people, just the people controling the people. If one is in tuned with the religion, then nothing will feel "organized" or preasured. They will be in communion with the faith and people they practice with.

With the religions I listed, I can see why each of them have some control over people as each person has a role to their religious community...to help them learn faith, study the bible, and promote it. That is religion. As far as going beyond religion to control, I don't know what that's call. But its definitely not religion. That's my view.

 

[Mackerni]

Organized religion is the easiest way to spread faith. When a religion sends out people to build churches in a third-world country, they are organized. Churches spread faith. Pastors and ministers spread faith. The only religions that are not entirely organized are the ones that only have an online presence. Temple of the Jedi Order has structure, and a lot of it, but it's not organized because a website alone cannot spread faith. Believe it or not if there were no churches or church officials most people would not have faith.

Organized religion is directed and controlled by people. Faith isn't. Granted organized religion was created to support faith, but it has the propensity to lead someone to becoming too legalistic. In and of itself, organized religion isn't 'bad,' but that's how I'd tend to view it. Controlled and directed by people.

Your faith is directed and controlled by people too. Where did you hear Jesus from? Even my made-up belief system is made up of other people because it adds elements from many different perspectives. Unless you want to invent a completely new language where all the words cannot be translated into English, your faith is as fabricated as anything else in this made-up world.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Eh. Happens to the best of us. I get bored, really. I'd like to figure out some productive topics

Well, I managed to find a post around here I wrote about this earlier, that is one of the better ones I've churned out about the attributes of organized religion. Ironically, it's also from a thread you created a while ago as well on nearly the same topic.



I can't say my perspective on this has really changed from when I wrote this post. By this measure, there are plenty of religions that aren't all that organized. Most Neopaganisms are so poorly organized that ti would be inaccurate to call them organized religions.

I think, according to your former post, people are mistaking organized religion for the three options you listed. Actually, I don't remember reading this before. Hm.

 

[Deidre]

[QUOTE="Mackerni, post: 4461358, member: 57921] your faith is as fabricated as anything else in this made-up world.[/QUOTE]

And so is your opinion.

 

[arthra]

Okay. Here me out.

....
They all have dogma. They all have ceremonies. They all have sacraments.

So, what define's an organized religion?

I ask because it stuns me when we fuss about how bad organize religion is; but, we have our churches, prayer groups, etc that are just as organized as any other church regardless the denomination. Maybe "organized religion" isn't the appropriate word?

I appreciate the general way you're exploring the topic of "organized religion". My view is that without some form of community organization the preservation of the initial inspiration from say a revelation would not be passed down to posterity.

I don't personally fuss that much about organized religion. Yes there have been in my view exaggerated and dominant forms of organized religion that have been oppressive but other forms of organized religion also allow for personal growth and advocating for civil ideals and aspirations for social justice.

I don't agree with your view that

"They all have dogma. They all have ceremonies. They all have sacraments."

Dogma implies a required belief system that can be stifling and while required by some religions is not upheld in others.. In the Baha'i Faith rather than "dogma" it is required to independently investigate truth/reality.

We have no priests and no sacramental system. Without priests there are no rites or ceremonies. True we do have daily prayers that each Baha'i recites daily but these are also by choice and conducted privately...not in a groups en masse.

 

[psychoslice]

Organized religion is just someone else's religion, its not ours, its second-hand, to me religion is found within each one of us, and nowhere else.

 

[Deidre]

Hm. We have different views, of course. I haven't really seen religion controling the people, just the people controling the people. If one is in tuned with the religion, then nothing will feel "organized" or preasured. They will be in communion with the faith and people they practice with.

With the religions I listed, I can see why each of them have some control over people as each person has a role to their religious community...to help them learn faith, study the bible, and promote it. That is religion. As far as going beyond religion to control, I don't know what that's call. But its definitely not religion. That's my view.

I don't disagree, it could be just a matter of slight semantics. But, coming back to Christianity, Jesus didn't really like organized religion, or so it seemed that way. Maybe He didn't like the fact that people took it too far with legalism? What do you think about that?

 

[psychoslice]

Actually Jesus never told anyone to join a religion, just like the Buddha, all these organization came later, and quite frankly, stuffed it all up.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I appreciate the general way you're exploring the topic of "organized religion". My view is that without some form of community organization the preservation of the initial inspiration from say a revelation would not be passed down to posterity.

I don't personally fuss that much about organized religion. Yes there have been in my view exaggerated and dominant forms of organized religion that have been oppressive but other forms of organized religion also allow for personal growth and advocating for civil ideals and aspirations for social justice.

I don't agree with your view that

"They all have dogma. They all have ceremonies. They all have sacraments."

Dogma implies a required belief system that can be stifling and while required by some religions is not upheld in others.. In the Baha'i Faith rather than "dogma" it is required to independently investigate truth/reality.

We have no priests and no sacramental system. Without priests there are no rites or ceremonies. True we do have daily prayers that each Baha'i recites daily but these are also by choice and conducted privately...not in a groups en masse.

That's a different outlook than what I am accustomed to in regards to a spiritual path. I don't use dogma but just beliefs. However, if I'd say tall religion has a set Dogma that makes their religion or belief system as it is. I am not familar with Bahai religion; so, I can't speak intelligently about it. I can only assume that there are some tenants of the faith (say a Creator and prayers) that are part of your faith. I disagree that the definition of Dogma is that one is required to follow it.

However, why follow a religion if you don't believe in the core tenants of the faith? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of following the religion if you don't believe in it? I'd say in Christianity, the Dogma is the Bible. That's where the teachings are based regardless of how its interpreted.

In your faith, how does your community worship? How do you all come together in faith and like-minds to worship or give reverence to the Creator or what you believe? I honestly believe that dogma, ceremonies, sacraments, rituals, etc are used in a negative way. If we said beliefs/tenants, communion in fellowship, having rites of passages (which is in most faiths), and ways of practice (how to do prayers, for example) are a part of many faiths.

It's the wording. Also, I am still unclear about our other discussion. I was thinking of rephrasing it for another thread; but, like everything else, it ends up fustrating or goes no where. Its hard to learn things here sometimes.

I just think it's wording. If we switched organizational with structured. Dogma with beliefs/core tenants, ceremonies with ways of communion (activites and so forth) with like minds, and rituals with practices, maybe its easier to see many religions have these things.

I mean, that's how I define organized religion. We have differing views. It's nice that I can talk about something enough to understand it. I dont get that often. I get cut off.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't disagree, it could be just a matter of slight semantics. But, coming back to Christianity, Jesus didn't really like organized religion, or so it seemed that way. Maybe He didn't like the fact that people took it too far with legalism? What do you think about that?

He felt the Jews where placing their practices over the Creator Himself. I couldn't really judge if thats true, since I can't find their point of view. They were angry, though, that a Jew who said He believed in the Creator, did not follow the practices that was of His culture. Maybe He saw corruption in it. I actually don't like Jesus' demenour when He is refering to the Jews because I don't know the Jews side of the story.

I'd hope that the practices of His culture would not be an extra but be part of His worship to His God. I just can't imagine a religion that people just believe but don't do anything together to implement that belief as a community. In order to do that, one must have some structure, roles, heirachy of some sort, etc. '

My point. I don't agree that Jesus promoted single minded worship.

 

[Quintessence]

I think, according to your former post, people are mistaking organized religion for the three options you listed. Actually, I don't remember reading this before. Hm.

It does depend on how people choose to use the term. There comes a point where connotation overrides denotation in common parlance. While at root, "organized" just means something is arranged in a systematic or ordered fashion, common parlance attaches other connotations to that. Because organization is typically a requisite for things like fundamentalism/traditionalism, dogmatism, and/or authoritarianism, connotation lumps it all together even though organization inherently requires none of those.

Perhaps to briefly clarify what I'm thinking with respect to those three:

• Fundamentalism (or traditionalism) - demands the current system of organization be preserved or remain unchanged; strongly resists changes to the traditions and is opposed to progressivist outlooks
• Dogmatism (or exclusivism) - perceives there to be only one correct arrangement for the subject in question, or that there is only one incontrovertible truth, rather than many truths; opposed to pluralist outlooks
• Authoritarianism - consolidates power in the hands of a few individuals, whose vision of the tradition must be followed to maintain standing with the group; opposed to things like democratic rule

These three are sometimes, but not always, found together.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Religion is community worship not single-minded. When you have a community and culture, you develop practices that express your worship within you and your community. It isn't solo. It helps one commune with people of like-minds. It helps people help others. It helps people find their sense of self without having to depend on any person but work with others with like goals.

In religion there isn't supposed to be a "requirement." It's not supposed to be "strict aka preasured". It should bring people together in unison.

That's what I find beautiful about religion. Could be samantics.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It does depend on how people choose to use the term. There comes a point where connotation overrides denotation in common parlance. While at root, "organized" just means something is arranged in a systematic or ordered fashion, common parlance attaches other connotations to that. Because organization is typically a requisite for things like fundamentalism/traditionalism, dogmatism, and/or authoritarianism, connotation lumps it all together even though organization inherently requires none of those.

Perhaps to briefly clarify what I'm thinking with respect to those three:

• Fundamentalism (or traditionalism) - demands the current system of organization be preserved or remain unchanged; strongly resists changes to the traditions and is opposed to progressivist outlooks
• Dogmatism (or exclusivism) - perceives there to be only one correct arrangement for the subject in question, or that there is only one incontrovertible truth, rather than many truths; opposed to pluralist outlooks
• Authoritarianism - consolidates power in the hands of a few individuals, whose vision of the tradition must be followed to maintain standing with the group; opposed to things like democratic rule

These three are sometimes, but not always, found together.

Having different connotations for the same word to make it negative (like other words in English) kind of gets fustrating especially when I haven't had the same experience with religion like that. I kinda wish sometimes people can see and experience the beauty in religion. As long as there is a dogmatic and fundamentalist outlook, thats kinda mute. That, and not all religions that are dogatic, authoritative, and fundmental are negative (personal opinion).

Balls down to the person, experiences, and/or bias.

 

[Deidre]

He felt the Jews where placing their practices over the Creator Himself. I couldn't really judge if thats true, since I can't find their point of view. They were angry, though, that a Jew who said He believed in the Creator, did not follow the practices that was of His culture. Maybe He saw corruption in it. I actually don't like Jesus' demenour when He is refering to the Jews because I don't know the Jews side of the story.

I'd hope that the practices of His culture would not be an extra but be part of His worship to His God. I just can't imagine a religion that people just believe but don't do anything together to implement that belief as a community. In order to do that, one must have some structure, roles, heirachy of some sort, etc. '

My point. I don't agree that Jesus promoted single minded worship.

I like your take here, Carlita. Makes one wonder, were there other stories missing, that filled in the gaps you speak of?
I think there isn't much to go on, but Jesus seemed to be instructing His followers not to make religion an idol. I suppose anything can become one.