tarekabdo12
Active Member
OK, I've seen your link and I'll give my comments about it so please follow up.
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What did god have against dinosaurs?
- Thread starter idav
- Start date
tarekabdo12
Active Member
Yes, humans are pesky but not all of them. This world was created mainly to examine those humans. Those who are good and honorable will be treated with gratitude and the contrary is true. But, one day the world must end so that the fiendish persons become punished for their grave crimes and pious ones are favored.
Warren Clark
Informer
LMAO.
Because "God wanted" humans to be the rulers of the earth and build skyscrapers.
With Large "Terrible Lizards" We would be hiding in caves with spears. =P
tarekabdo12
Active Member
[FONT="]Useless eyes: cave critters[FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]There are hundreds of species of animal which, living in total darkness in deep caves, have no need for eyes. They range from fish (eg the Mexican blind cave tetra [FONT="]Astyanax fasciatus mexicanus[/FONT][FONT="]) to insects (eg the Hawaiian cave planthopper [/FONT][FONT="]Oliarus polyphemus[/FONT][FONT="]), spiders (eg the Tooth Cave Spider [/FONT][FONT="]Neoleptoneta myopica[/FONT][FONT="]), salamanders (eg Typhlomolge rathbuni) and crayfish (eg the Dougherty Plain cave crayfish [/FONT][FONT="]Cambarus cryptodytes[/FONT][FONT="]). [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]Yet, these creatures do in fact have eyes. The eyes are often tiny, lacking crucial parts, and so on, and so they would not function even if there were light to see. But they are clearly eyes, set in skull apertures, on stalks etc as normal, nevertheless. [FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]Eyes that don't work in creatures that don't even need eyes? Surely not?! [FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]from:[FONT="] Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Actually, they are not totally blind. Cavefish still retain the pineal gland which is sensitive to light. When the scientists experimentally removed eyes and pineal glands from the young cavefish, they found the fish only retained their shadow response if they had their pineal gland too.[/FONT]
[FONT="]In other words, the pineal gland helped them detect light.[/FONT]
[FONT="]So why might cavefish have preserved a way to see light after living a million or so years in the dark?[/FONT]
[FONT="]One possibility is that caves are not always dark for instance, cavefish might experience light near cave entrances or after cave-ins open windows in ceilings, the researchers said.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Another idea has to do with the fact that the pineal gland supplies the body with melatonin, a key hormone behind reproduction and growth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Although mutations could knock out the eyes of the cave-dwelling fish without causing too much trouble, withering away the pineal gland would lead to too many problems[/FONT]
[FONT="]
As a result, the gland stayed, as did the light sensitivity it conferred.[/FONT]
[FONT="]The shadow response might have originally evolved to protect young surface fish, the researchers suggested.[/FONT]
[FONT="]When the larvae sense shadows of floating objects such as leaves, they hide beneath the object as a shelter, perhaps to avoid predators.[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C326471%2C00.html[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]In addition, there are genes that cause these eyes to shut down. This means that it's an active process controlled by genes so it's designed. If it was just a matter of evolution the body would lose the genes for the eye, this is much easier. But, notice that God really removed and organ that is not in use later one which emphasizes the perfect planned intelligent design.[/FONT]
tarekabdo12
Active Member
[FONT="]Useless eyes: burrowers[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]The non-functioning eyes of burrowing animals, such as marsupial moles (order Notoryctemorphia: no lens or pupil, reduced optic nerve), golden moles, amphisbaeneans and naked mole rats ([FONT="]Heterocephalus glaber[/FONT]).[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]http://i.livescience.com/images/i/6955/i02/mole-rats-sight-100810-02.jpg?1296087826[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
Mole rats spend nearly all their lives underground, but they are not blind as was long thought, and are even color-sensitive. [FONT="]However, mole rats also plug their tunnels to keep out predators. According to a Czech study, two species of African mole rats appeared to use their limited vision to do so. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Detecting light from holes in their tunnels enables mole rats to quickly plug the holes to keep out predators like honey badgers and humans.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
'Blind' Mole Rats Can See, Study Confirms | LiveScience
[FONT="]The non-functioning eyes of burrowing animals, such as marsupial moles (order Notoryctemorphia: no lens or pupil, reduced optic nerve), golden moles, amphisbaeneans and naked mole rats ([FONT="]Heterocephalus glaber[/FONT]).[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]http://i.livescience.com/images/i/6955/i02/mole-rats-sight-100810-02.jpg?1296087826[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
Mole rats spend nearly all their lives underground, but they are not blind as was long thought, and are even color-sensitive. [FONT="]However, mole rats also plug their tunnels to keep out predators. According to a Czech study, two species of African mole rats appeared to use their limited vision to do so. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Detecting light from holes in their tunnels enables mole rats to quickly plug the holes to keep out predators like honey badgers and humans.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
'Blind' Mole Rats Can See, Study Confirms | LiveScience
Your own source just told you why they don't loose the genes for the eye.
I think the good doctor needs to read up on vestigiality.
tarekabdo12
Active Member
Useless eyes: river dolphins
Not all river dolphins are blind; in fact, Amazon dolphins (Inia geoffrensis) have quite good eyesight. However, most others have reduced vision. Most of their habitats are murky waters, where eyes are of little use. And the designer's gift of good sonar is perfectly adequate instead. Why, then, do Ganges and Indus dolphins (Platanista gangetica and P minor) have eyes at all? For their eyes lack a lens, leaving these species unable to resolve images: the most they can do is perceive the presence or absense of light (of which there's rather little where they live anyway)... for which skull apertures, eyeballs, muscles, retinas and the rest, the same design as normally-sighted dolphins have, seems a bit excessive.
from
Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes
Not all river dolphins are blind; in fact, Amazon dolphins (Inia geoffrensis) have quite good eyesight. However, most others have reduced vision. Most of their habitats are murky waters, where eyes are of little use. And the designer's gift of good sonar is perfectly adequate instead. Why, then, do Ganges and Indus dolphins (Platanista gangetica and P minor) have eyes at all? For their eyes lack a lens, leaving these species unable to resolve images: the most they can do is perceive the presence or absense of light (of which there's rather little where they live anyway)... for which skull apertures, eyeballs, muscles, retinas and the rest, the same design as normally-sighted dolphins have, seems a bit excessive.
from
Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes
-Although its eye lacks a lens, and it is sometimes referred to as being blind, the Indus River dolphin's eye does seem to function as a direction-finding device by using the direction and intensity of light.
-In addition, detection of light is not useless, it's related to melatonin secretion from the pineal gland which controls the body's sleep-wakefulness circadian rythm.
-In addition, detection of light is not useless, it's related to melatonin secretion from the pineal gland which controls the body's sleep-wakefulness circadian rythm.
tarekabdo12
Active Member
I'll contiue, I haven't finished yet.
tarekabdo12
Active Member
Mammalian vision processing
Also strange is the fact that the part of the mammalian brain that does the image processing is at the back of the head, so the nerve signals have to travel further from the eyes than they might otherwise need to.
Well, here you are criticizing something without mentioning and trying the alternative. In order to prove that the design currently present is insufficient, you ought to design and try an alternative in experiments to prove it's actually better on scientific basis. Since this is not present so the dialogue won't be fruitful.
Also strange is the fact that the part of the mammalian brain that does the image processing is at the back of the head, so the nerve signals have to travel further from the eyes than they might otherwise need to.
Well, here you are criticizing something without mentioning and trying the alternative. In order to prove that the design currently present is insufficient, you ought to design and try an alternative in experiments to prove it's actually better on scientific basis. Since this is not present so the dialogue won't be fruitful.
Sorry if you're not finished yet, but.... LOL
We probably would be designing human brains right now, but religeous groups always stand in the way of this sort of research.
Furthermore, things that are obvious don't really need to be tested do they?
You wouldn't go to the trouble of building a car with wheels on it's roof just to test it's performance against current designs... would you?
Last edited:
McBell
Unbound
I hear tell that dinosuars never actually existed.
The bones we have found were put there by god to test the faith of man.
tarekabdo12
Active Member
No, of course it needs to be tested. If a pharmacological company produces a drug it carries experiments on rats. Even if these experiments are successful, they must complete the assessment on humans for a long period to see if there are any problems like celecoxib drug and others.
Changing the position of a part of the brain would come on the expense of other areas and how do you know that it would derange the function of other areas if you didn't even try. There must be a tried active alternative example followed up with great scrutiny.
ellenjanuary
Well-Known Member
That ain't god, that's his harsh mistress, entropy. Another group of life stagnates on this ball of mud, they'll get rocked, too.
ellenjanuary
Well-Known Member
tarekabdo12
Active Member
The vertebrate retina
The retina is the 'screen' at the inside back of each eyeball, onto which is projected the incoming light. It is made up of lots of photoreceptor cells with their associated out-going nerves, and the blood supply to them. The problem is, the photoreceptors are in backwards, pointing away from the incoming light: the 'cable' from each cell is therefore in the way, and trails across the eyeball's inside surface to exit the retina at the correctly-named 'blind spot'.
Now, the brain compensates for this, so we don't usually notice it. But a design that needs compensatory mechanism for some aspect of it, is not a good design.
But to make matters worse, this design actually causes unnecessary problems.
The photoreceptors have delicate, hairlike nerve endings, which means they cannot be cemented firmly into place. Instead, they are loosely joined to a layer of cells called the retinal pigment epithelium. This absorbs stray photons that would otherwise blur the image, and contains the retina's blood supply. But the connection between the retina and the epithelium is so fragile that the retina can detach, either due to a blow to the head, or often, spontaneously. Starved of their blood supply, the retinal cells die, causing blindness.
Strangely, the creator was able to put retinas the 'right' way round... in those pinnacles of His purpose, the octupus and squid. Not only do their eyes, which are basically the same design as vertebrate ones, have their photoreceptors pointing towards the light, and so lack a blind spot; with the nerves training behind them and embedded in their blood supply, the cephalopod eye is far less prone to detached retinas.
Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes
Actually, the retina is attached to the underlying pigment epithelium mainly by the pressure of the vitreous so there is no need for very tight junctions between them as they are separate layers. Retinal detachment occurring after trauma is not an exception from other organs and tissues. Trauma detaches skin, breaks bones, cut muscles, detaches the choroid from sclera and may cause avulsion of the optic nerve so what the difference? Moreover, retinal detachment without trauma doesn't occur in normal persons but it occurs in those who have degeneration of the retina as in high myopics and in addition, they must have degeneration of the vitreous where the fluid component separates from the colloidal part. So, the main problem lies in the vitreous humor and not the retina. Even if there are multiple tears in the retina, without vitreous problems, no problem would occur. The vitreous must compose from 2 parts which is essential for its function so I think this point is hardly escaped.
About the nerves that arise from the ganglion cell layer, the nerves are shifted away from the fovea which is the site of high quality vision when you focus by your eye on an object. The other parts of the retina were designed to have less efficacy in color and accurate high resolution vision in favor of good function not the contrary. Humans-unlike other animals- need to deeply concentrate on a certain object as they massively use their mind. If the whole field was with the same clarity it would hinder their concentration on one single object as the brain won't be able to focus his energy on the most important current structure so this function was restricted to the fovea.
The blind spot is not a problem at all. Even if you close one eye, you still won't notice any defect in your field. This is due to the fine oscillations the eye makes to fill this defect. In addition, it's compensated by the other eye. These oscillations are already necessary to prevent the accommodation of the visual receptors to light and thus stoppage of impulse transmission yo the brain. So, there's actually no problem from it.
The retina is the 'screen' at the inside back of each eyeball, onto which is projected the incoming light. It is made up of lots of photoreceptor cells with their associated out-going nerves, and the blood supply to them. The problem is, the photoreceptors are in backwards, pointing away from the incoming light: the 'cable' from each cell is therefore in the way, and trails across the eyeball's inside surface to exit the retina at the correctly-named 'blind spot'.
Now, the brain compensates for this, so we don't usually notice it. But a design that needs compensatory mechanism for some aspect of it, is not a good design.
But to make matters worse, this design actually causes unnecessary problems.
The photoreceptors have delicate, hairlike nerve endings, which means they cannot be cemented firmly into place. Instead, they are loosely joined to a layer of cells called the retinal pigment epithelium. This absorbs stray photons that would otherwise blur the image, and contains the retina's blood supply. But the connection between the retina and the epithelium is so fragile that the retina can detach, either due to a blow to the head, or often, spontaneously. Starved of their blood supply, the retinal cells die, causing blindness.
Strangely, the creator was able to put retinas the 'right' way round... in those pinnacles of His purpose, the octupus and squid. Not only do their eyes, which are basically the same design as vertebrate ones, have their photoreceptors pointing towards the light, and so lack a blind spot; with the nerves training behind them and embedded in their blood supply, the cephalopod eye is far less prone to detached retinas.
Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes
Actually, the retina is attached to the underlying pigment epithelium mainly by the pressure of the vitreous so there is no need for very tight junctions between them as they are separate layers. Retinal detachment occurring after trauma is not an exception from other organs and tissues. Trauma detaches skin, breaks bones, cut muscles, detaches the choroid from sclera and may cause avulsion of the optic nerve so what the difference? Moreover, retinal detachment without trauma doesn't occur in normal persons but it occurs in those who have degeneration of the retina as in high myopics and in addition, they must have degeneration of the vitreous where the fluid component separates from the colloidal part. So, the main problem lies in the vitreous humor and not the retina. Even if there are multiple tears in the retina, without vitreous problems, no problem would occur. The vitreous must compose from 2 parts which is essential for its function so I think this point is hardly escaped.
About the nerves that arise from the ganglion cell layer, the nerves are shifted away from the fovea which is the site of high quality vision when you focus by your eye on an object. The other parts of the retina were designed to have less efficacy in color and accurate high resolution vision in favor of good function not the contrary. Humans-unlike other animals- need to deeply concentrate on a certain object as they massively use their mind. If the whole field was with the same clarity it would hinder their concentration on one single object as the brain won't be able to focus his energy on the most important current structure so this function was restricted to the fovea.
The blind spot is not a problem at all. Even if you close one eye, you still won't notice any defect in your field. This is due to the fine oscillations the eye makes to fill this defect. In addition, it's compensated by the other eye. These oscillations are already necessary to prevent the accommodation of the visual receptors to light and thus stoppage of impulse transmission yo the brain. So, there's actually no problem from it.
tarekabdo12
Active Member
By the way, I'd like to the point to that the similarity of the eye of humans and the octopus is an obstacle facing evolution. This similarity should have been with apes, rather.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Neither of those options make sense if God is specifically designing the organism. 1) Why not give them working eyes, if they have a use for them? 2) Removing the light-sensitive portions of the pineal gland without disturbing the rest of it should be completely trivial for a all-knowing designer.
Humans grow tails in the womb, which are then re-absorbed later during the pregnancy. That's just inefficient. It serves no use, functionally, and so no designer should put it there.
tarekabdo12
Active Member
The human larynx-pharynx junction
Talking of larynxes, there's the opening of the human larynx (leading to the trachea) being from the pharynx, so that swallowing impedes breathing (and vice versa). Not only that, but with the wind-pipe coming from off the food-pipe, there is a constant risk of choking. Before the Heimlich maneuver was invented, choking was one of the leading causes of accidental death; even so, thousands still die worldwide each year from inhaling their food. Children are more vulnerable because their airways are narrower. Great design.
To breathe from your mouth, otherwise you'd suffocate if you have a cold.
Talking of larynxes, there's the opening of the human larynx (leading to the trachea) being from the pharynx, so that swallowing impedes breathing (and vice versa). Not only that, but with the wind-pipe coming from off the food-pipe, there is a constant risk of choking. Before the Heimlich maneuver was invented, choking was one of the leading causes of accidental death; even so, thousands still die worldwide each year from inhaling their food. Children are more vulnerable because their airways are narrower. Great design.
To breathe from your mouth, otherwise you'd suffocate if you have a cold.
tarekabdo12
Active Member
He gave them enough function for their use, they don't use complete eyes
tarekabdo12
Active Member
Who said the light sensitive portion of the pineal is not needed. All the animals need to adjust their circadian according to the presence of light. Notice that the dolphins feed on other creatures that also are adjusted to light-dark cycle so they need to feed on their preys during their activity and they can't have a separate time clock in their bodies. They must follow the rules of the world surrounding them.