What Did Jesus Actually Do?

[Spartan]

How do you get from 'he did nothing all that great' to 'he's a god' though? How does that tradition develop? Neither Moshe nor any other prophet were taken for gods and they did wonderful things. What gave Jesus this distinction?

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).

The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture

 

[Rival]

And there are millions who are Christian. What's your point?

If you follow what was said before you'd understand the context for this. I was making the point that one can believe in the supernatural / gods / G-d etc. and not be a Christian.

 

[Rival]

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).

The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture

This is your religion though. I want to know what Jesus did in historical terms that I don't have to believe, in the same way I don't need to believe that Muhammad was a warlord who united the Arabian tribes, because it doesn't require any faith to believe that and history seems to support it. I can know it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"decades after his death"?

The earliest mention of the Resurrection was only a handful of years after the event.

Talking about and writing about, obviously, aren't the same thing. People were obviously talking about something before the writing, but the writing did not happen until decades after the alleged events. It suggests to me this "real life Jesus" was just important enough to get the attention of the Romans, but did nothing remarkable enough to get it written down then.

 

[sojourner]

It's my religious text, but this isn't the point of the thread. It isn't even about texts, it's about Jesus.

Except that the texts are the only reliable purveyors of information about Jesus and his acts and personhood. Any discussion about Jesus would necessarily include the texts.

 

[sojourner]

This is your religion though. I want to know what Jesus did in historical terms that I don't have to believe, in the same way I don't need to believe that Muhammad was a warlord who united the Arabian tribes, because it doesn't require any faith to believe that and history seems to support it. I can know it.

Your request is unrealistic. Jesus came out of a largely oral culture. The biblical and extrabiblical texts and fragments are all we have. Read them; exegete them.

 

[Spartan]

Talking about and writing about, obviously, aren't the same thing. People were obviously talking about something before the writing, but the writing did not happen until decades after the alleged events. It suggests to me this "real life Jesus" was just important enough to get the attention of the Romans, but did nothing remarkable enough to get it written down then.

Nope. You've missed the big picture then.

 

[sojourner]

But how do you get to that conclusion?

Because that’s how the texts present him.

 

[sojourner]

How do you get from 'he did nothing all that great' to 'he's a god' though? How does that tradition develop? Neither Moshe nor any other prophet were taken for gods and they did wonderful things. Eliyahu raised a dead boy and he's not taken for a deity. What gave Jesus this distinction?

I didn’t say he didn’t do anything great. I acquiesced to the notion that his wisdom was not original. That tradition develops from the people who knew him and handed that info down.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nope. You've missed the big picture then.

About what? Nothing you've said even contradicts my position.

 

[sojourner]

If you follow what was said before you'd understand the context for this. I was making the point that one can believe in the supernatural / gods / G-d etc. and not be a Christian.

And one can believe in God and be Christian. There’s nothing special about Xy in that regard.

 

[Rival]

And one can believe in God and be Christian. There’s nothing special about Xy in that regard.

This is the quote I was responding to:

People should believe the Gospels. Those who don't, in my memory, haven't done their proper due-diligence and/or have an unfounded anti-supernatural bias.

My response is that no, you can disbelieve in the gospels and also have done due diligence and not be anti-supernatural. You can believe in G-d and not the gospels. So this quote is wrong.

 

[Spartan]

My response is that no, you can disbelieve in the gospels and also have done due diligence and not be anti-supernatural. You can believe in G-d and not the gospels. So this quote is wrong.

No, you're mistaken. Sure, people can disbelieve the Gospels, but IMO when they do it's not based in serious, accurate, due-diligence research.

 

[Rival]

No, you're mistaken. Sure, people can disbelieve the Gospels, but IMO when they do it's not based in serious, accurate, due-diligence research.

Care to substantiate this? I guess those people who spent half their lives in Christianity then converted to another religion just didn't do their research? Jehova's Witnesses who studied daily, or people who went to Bible Schools or those who are former vicars and priests who have left the faith? All ignorant as mud.

 

[sojourner]

This is the quote I was responding to:



My response is that no, you can disbelieve in the gospels and also have done due diligence and not be anti-supernatural. You can believe in G-d and not the gospels. So this quote is wrong.

Yes, thanks. I did see it. My response to that is that one can believe the gospels and also believe in God and not be supernatural. As opposed to MUST believe the gospels and be supernatural in order to believe in God. I should have been clearer... IOW: hard-core fundigelicalism isn’t the only Xtian option.

 

[Spartan]

Care to substantiate this? I guess those people who spent half their lives in Christianity then converted to another religion just didn't do their research? Jehova's Witnesses who studied daily, or people who went to Bible Schools or those who are former vicars and priests who have left the faith? All ignorant as mud.

Sure, people kick the Gospel Jesus to the curb all the time, but like I said, IMO they didn't do it based on accurate information.

If you think the Gospels are inaccurate, show me your best one (1 - just ONE) example of a fictitious person, place, or event in the Gospels? Cite the pertinent scripture #'s and make your case.

Let's see that bad boy.

 

[Shad]

From a historical standpoint, what, in his own lifetime, did Jesus of Nazareth achieve? I am having trouble figuring this out, because I can see objectively that Muhammad had a huge impact upon not only his own society but others, all within his lifetime. That the impact was either good or bad is not my point here, but that had had one. Baha'u'llah had some direct impacts, if small, upon his society. In contrast, I can't think of anything Jesus did that no-one else could have done.

He was born, he preached, he was executed.

This is probably going to turn into an 'It was all Paul not Jesus' thread, but have at it anyway.

At the very least started or inspired a movement even if that movement may have changed and splinter over time. After all if no one cared about Jesus he would just be another prisoner executed by Rome

 

[Rival]

Sure, people kick the Gospel Jesus to the curb all the time, but like I said, IMO they didn't do it based on accurate information.

If you think the Gospels are inaccurate, show me your best one (1 - just ONE) example of a fictitious person, place, or event in the Gospels? Cite the pertinent scripture #'s and make your case. Let's see that bad boy.

I could write a book using real places, real people, and it still be fiction. People do this all the time - it's call period or historical drama.

It's not because of that. It's because Jesus fulfilled none of the messianic prophecies. That's it. He could have healed more people than the NHS, performed more miracles than Moshe, risen from the dead 3 times and he still would not be the moshiach.

Here are the messianic prophecies for your convenience:

2 Shmuel 7:10-13

And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety.

 

[Spartan]

I could write a book using real places, real people, and it still be fiction. People do this all the time - it's call period or historical drama.

It's not because of that. It's because Jesus fulfilled none of the messianic prophecies. That's it. He could have healed more people than the NHS, performed more miracles than Moshe, risen from the dead 3 times and he still would not be the moshiach.

Here are the messianic prophecies for your convenience:

2 Shmuel 7:10-13

And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.

And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.

When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.

He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety.

<sigh>

Read my challenge again:

"If you think the Gospels are inaccurate, show me your best one (1 - just ONE) example of a fictitious person, place, or event in the Gospels? Cite the pertinent scripture #'s and make your case."

IN THE GOSPLES. ONE EXAMPLE. Cite the Gospel scripture. Make your case.

Try again.

By the way, your examples ignore the Second Coming of Christ when the remaining Messianic prophecies are expected to be fulfilled.

 

[Rival]

<sigh>

Read my challenge again:

"If you think the Gospels are inaccurate, show me your best one (1 - just ONE) example of a fictitious person, place, or event in the Gospels? Cite the pertinent scripture #'s and make your case."

IN THE GOSPLES. ONE EXAMPLE. Cite the Gospel scripture. Make your case.

Try again.

I could write a book using real places, real people, and it still be fiction. People do this all the time - it's call period or historical drama.

It's not because of that. It's because Jesus fulfilled none of the messianic prophecies. That's it. He could have healed more people than the NHS, performed more miracles than Moshe, risen from the dead 3 times and he still would not be the moshiach.