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What did Jesus Sacrifice?

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
The Father is Spirit alone, and yet for His sake, He manifested Himself not only in flesh and blood, but in all things by His Word- and we perceive ourselves as sons of the Most High, even gods beside Him (which is the beginning of blasphemy). We are sons in that we are manifestations of the Father's will, but we are not gods i.e. beings of free will.

To the point.. Jesus died. He was removed from tomb to tomb, as to prevent worship of the dead. And, he was raised the third day (Hosea 6:2), with help from "men" in "glittering apparel."

These were men, messengers, who descended and ascended into the heavens with Jesus. That's important to note.

These men came from the "new Earth," which is to say they descended from an advanced point in time, i.e. the future. They raised Jesus and brought him into his kingdom, where he is greater in the name of the Father of Eternity, along with the other princes of peace.
 
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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Source? The Bible never says that.

Certain prophets saw the Messianic age, thousands of years advanced from their respective ages. Daniel and Zechariah for instance, saw certain people and things inhabiting the future. According to Jesus, "Abraham saw [his] day, and was glad".


What you can deduce from this is limited.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Certain prophets saw the Messianic age, thousands of years advanced from their respective ages. Daniel and Zechariah for instance, saw certain people and things inhabiting the future. According to Jesus, "Abraham saw [his] day, and was glad".


What you can deduce from this is limited.
I like to amuse myself with the thought that people like Revelation's John saw a vision of a Michael Bay disaster movie and thought it was real because he didn't understand what special effects were. :)
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
STrikes me as a fantasy . Bible says he was raised form the dead with his same old body? the flesh is sin and God couldn't look upon the death at the cross because its sin, so he put back on his sinful flesh body God couldn't look at to go to heaven to God who could not ever look at him again?

Well how in the heck did he stay alive, the blood was drained so he couldn't breath which made him a vampire or it stayed in and his wounds flesh which means he was bleeding to death while he showed himself one earth to his desciples. ridiculous.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
STrikes me as a fantasy . Bible says he was raised form the dead with his same old body? the flesh is sin and God couldn't look upon the death at the cross because its sin, so he put back on his sinful flesh body God couldn't look at to go to heaven to God who could not ever look at him again?
In this case, no. His body was created without sin as was. His body wasn't created from a sperm and an egg (both made from flesh) but rather created by the Holy Spirit. "The Word became flesh" John 1:14 - not made by flesh but became tangible like flesh.

how in the heck did he stay alive, the blood was drained so he couldn't breath which made him a vampire or it stayed in and his wounds flesh which means he was bleeding to death while he showed himself one earth to his desciples. ridiculous.
Science does not have all the answers as discoveries are growing exponentially. So, not so ridiculous as you may suggest. We see the power of the mind enabling the body to do that which is naturally impossible. Likewise the spirit has the same capacity to do beyond what your mind can think of.
 
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NWL

Member
How do you know that God is male? Because the Bible says so? It was written by male chauvinists in an extremely chauvinistic time period, in a part of the world that looks down upon women. Go figure.
God is a spirit, he has no gender. The Bible’s use of the designation “Father” helps us to understand that God can be compared to that of a loving and protective father. It makes further sense that he's referred to as a "he" as his attributes are more like Mans than women. Man naturally dominates woman and takes the lead in matters, a woman is naturally more submissive. Also, since ones source of life is from the father it makes even more sense to refer to God as a he.
If you want to use the OT, first learn what Judaism has to say about it. The OT is their history and language. It also says that children can't be held accountable for the sins of their parents (Ezekiel 18:20) so the whole concept of Jesus dying for our sins is pure BS.
You keep stating you hold the credential and that I should learn things, I think you have it the wrong way around friend.

Ezekiel 18:20 is focusing on a individual’s accountability of their actions, it doesn't touch at all on how a person’s error may have consequences affecting his descendants, the context specifically keeps mentioning "soul/an individual" for a reason. Adam was a perfect human, he only knew good. Adam listened to his wife over God and thus sinned becoming sinful by nature, God doesn't punish us because of Adams sin, rather Adam sinful nature gets passed down to us generation after generation as we are his descendants.

Imagine Adam as a tin that bread dough gets baked in the oven with, if the tin was dented then all bread that gets baked in that tin would have the same dent compression in. Likewise Adam received the dent of sin in him thus, we his offspring, all have that same dent, namely sin (Romans 5:12). As already stated, God isn't punishing us for this, he knew it wasn't fair we all are sinful by nature because of ones man actions, hence the reason he gave his son in ransom for our sins.

Original sin is BS as well. See the above biblical reference.

Much of Genesis is meant to be metaphorical or allegorical. It is not literal. Google Maps does not show an angel holding a flaming sword barring the way to Eden.
I would surely hope it doesn't, since the need for the Angelic guard in Eden would cease to be needed at the coming of the great flood when Eden was destroyed. You take it as symbolic because its not there today even though is clear as to why its not there. Nonetheless, why is Genesis to be taken figuratively? You do a whole lot of claiming without any proof for you claims.
So you know how God operates, do you? Here I was thinking that God was omnipotent and omniscient, as well as transcendent. Yet people like you want to bound God inside of human understanding and place restrictions on God in order to support their particular flavor of beliefs.

Where is my claim that I know how God operates? In context of what I said, I was referring to the operation of Gods justice in relation to laws, commandments and action in the OT. My statement could hardly be taken that I know how God operates in all things, hence the reason why I said "that's not how he operates and not how perfect justice works according to the OT". Your absurd claim is simply you being a bad sport using bad debating tactics, once again.
 

NWL

Member
The authors of the Gospels are not known. They are anonymous. Nor were they eyewitnesses. This is well documented and a majority of academia agrees on the matter. As a matter of fact, many Bibles include a preface that talk about the next chapter, and there you will find where the Bible even states anonymous or unknown authors.

So, we will toss aside hearsay evidence and I leave it to you to come up with something tangible. Of course you can't, so it is a catch 22. Your entire argument hinges on hearsay.

There are many historians ranging from the 1 and 2 C.E and manuscripts (letters) of people who vadaliadate the Gospels and name the authors of them. Yes, no gospel directly state the author, this though doesn't prove the traditionally thought authors aren't the authors. As of yet you've provided no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Internal consistency? You need to go back and actually read the Gospels, not repeat what the WT teaches you to say:

1. The 4 Gospels disagree on who all went to Jesus' tomb on the 3rd day.
2. There is a difference in Jesus' genealogy between Matthew and Luke.
3. Only 2 of the 4 books mention the virgin birth (which in itself is BS).
4. Matthew states that Herod had male babies killed but history shows otherwise.
5. They disagree on the Last Supper date.
6. They disagree on Judas' death.
7. 30 pieces of silver is BS as silver coins had not been used in 300 years.
8. The purchase of the Field of Blood is inconsistent.
9. Was it Jesus or Paul that instituted the Last Supper?
10. Jesus was crucified between two robbers? Romans did not crucify robbers. That punishment was reserved for insurrectionists and rebellious slaves.

1. No they don't. All you see from the different gospels is details, or the lack of, of the persons who attended Jesus tomb. I myself am a police officer and, at times, have to write out statements regarding incidents I deal with, In my statement I might list all the other officers who were at the scene. However, in another officers statement they might not list all the officers who attended, but rather, only the relevant persons. Likewise, the lack of detail regrading the persons attending isn't a disagreement, its just a difference in writing style.
2. The difference with the genealogy of Jesus according to Luke as compared with Matthew’s can be readily clarified in the fact that Luke traced the line through David’s son Nathan, instead of Solomon as did Matthew. (Luke 3:31, Matt 1:6, 7) Luke evidently follows the ancestry of Mary, thus showing Jesus’ natural descent from David, while Matthew shows Jesus’ legal right to the throne of David by descent from Solomon through Joseph, who was legally Jesus’ father.
3. So? How does the fact that only two books mention the virgin birth prove the gospels wrong?
4. How does history show otherwise? Remember the lack of historical proof that Herod didn't kill babies isn't proof that the biblical historical record that Herod killed babies is incorrect.
5. LOL! I like this one. There is no disagreement, there is only ignorance here buddy. Jesus died on Nisan 14, on the passover. The day of unfermented cakes/bread occured on Nisan 15, the next day. However, due to the two occasions being linked together they were often spoken of as the passover, hence the confusion. Compare Leviticus 23:5-8, Luke 22:7.
6. Nope, once again one writer doesn't include the same detail as the other one.
7. Nope, it was the Romans who didn't make silver coins until the 3 C.E. There were plenty of different types of silver coins that could have been given to Judas, all of which are documented in history.
8.Because the money used by the priests in the purchase of the potter’s field had been provided by Judas Iscariot, the apostle Peter speaks of Judas as having bought the field for the burial of Jews who died while visiting in Jerusalem or of proselytes. This isn't a contradiction just flowery speech.
9. Jesus did. Please explain how you came to the conclusion that Paul did?
10. Again, you have a historical background, you sure? Yes they did crucify robbers. Crucifixions were used on low classes, slaves (as you mentioned), it wasn't limited to simply these two classes or the ones you mentioned, it was a lowly, shameful punishment. Moreover, how do you know the robbers weren't slaves or some type of marauding band? You don't! As you've clearly demonstrated over and over is these are wild assumptions that can't be back up.

What archaeological evidence? I minored in history with my Th.D. so by all means elaborate. Since other JWs have used almost the exact same speech, I am just going to assume that is some BS that you all are taught to say in order to sound official.

Many doubted the existence of Roman ruler Pontius Pilate as there was no historical record of him. In 1961 the name of Pontius Pilate was found in an inscription in the ruins of a Roman theater at Caesarea.

In Luke’s Gospel, we read that John the Baptizer began his ministry “when . . . Lysanias was district ruler of Abilene.” (Luke 3:1) Some doubted that statement because Josephus mentioned a Lysanias who ruled Abilene and who died in 34 B.C.E., long before the birth of John. However, archaeologists have uncovered an inscription in Abilene mentioning another Lysanias who was tetrarch (district ruler) during the reign of Tiberius, who was ruling as Caesar in Rome when John began his ministry.This could easily have been the Lysanias to whom Luke was referring.

In Acts 13:7 we read that Paul and Barnabas were sent to do missionary work in Cyprus and there met up with a proconsul named Sergius Paulus, “an intelligent man.” In the middle of the 19th century, excavations in Cyprus uncovered an inscription dating from 55 C.E. that mentions this very man. Of this, archaeologist G. Ernest Wright says: “It is the one reference we have to this proconsul outside the Bible and it is interesting that Luke gives us correctly his name and title."

When he was in Athens, Paul said he had observed an altar that was dedicated “To an Unknown God.” (Acts 17:23) Altars dedicated in Latin to anonymous gods have been discovered in parts of the territory of the Roman Empire. One was found in Pergamum with the inscription written in Greek, as would have been the case in Athens.

Later, while in Ephesus, Paul was violently opposed by silversmiths, whose income was derived from making shrines and images of the goddess Artemis. Ephesus was referred to as “the temple keeper of the great Artemis.” (Acts 19:35) In harmony with this, a number of terra-cotta and marble figurines of Artemis have been discovered at the site of ancient Ephesus. During the last century, the remains of the huge temple itself were excavated.
 

NWL

Member
Because it is true. The authors of the NWT were not fluent with Hebrew or Greek and merely rewrote what was already in English.

Edit: here is a wiki clipping on the subject...

"The New World Translation was produced by the New World Bible Translation Committee, formed in 1947. This committee is said to have comprised unnamed members of multinational background. The committee requested that the Watch Tower Society not publish the names of its members, stating that they did not want to "advertise themselves but let all the glory go to the Author of the Scriptures, God," adding that the translation, "should direct the reader... to... Jehovah God".
Lets see what modern day scholars say about the NWT and its accuracy then, here are just some of many;

ALLEN WIKGREN: (Allen Wikgren was on the New Revised Standard Version committee, as well as on the committee which produced the UBS Greek text). "Independent readings of merit often occur in other modern speech versions, such as...the Jehovah's Witnesses edition of the New Testament(1950)." (The Interpreter's Bible, 1952 Vol. 1 page 99)

BENJAMIN KEDAR: (Benjamin Kedar is a professor of Hebrew in Israel). "In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavour to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. Giving evidence of a broad command of the original language, it renders the original words into a second language understandably without deviating unnecessarily from the specific structure of the Hebrew...Every statement of language allows for a certain latitude in interpreting or translation. So the linguistic solution in any given case may be open to debate. But I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain."

S. MACLEAN GILMORE: "In 1950 the Jehovah's Witnesses published their New World Translation of the New Testament, and the preparation of the New World Old Testament is now far advanced. The New Testament edition was made by a committee...that possessed an unusual competence in Greek." (The Andover Newton Quarterly, September 1966, Vol 7, #1 page 25, 26) 5. C. HOUTMAN: Mr. Houtman notes that on the point of translator bias. "the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses can survive the scrutiny of criticism." (Nederlands Theologisch Tijdschrift, [Dutch Theological Magazines] 38 1984, page 279-280)

JASON BEDUHN: (Jason Beduhn teaches at the University of Indiana). "I have just recently completed teaching a course for the Religious Studies Department of Indiana University, Bloomington, ...This is primarily a course in the Gospels. Your help came in the form of copies of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures which my students used as one of the textbooks for the class. These small volumes were invaluable to the course and very popular with my students...Simply put, it is the best interlinear New Testament available. I am a trained scholar of the Bible, familiar with the texts and tools in use in modern biblical studies, and by the way, not a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses. But I know a quality publication when I see one, and your 'New World Bible Translation Committee' has done its job well. Your interlinear English rendering is accurate and consistent to an extreme that forces the reader to come to terms with the linguistic, cultural, and conceptual gaps between the Greek-speaking world and our own. Your 'New World Translation' is a high quality, literal translation that avoids traditional glosses in its faithfulness to the Greek. It is, in many ways, superior to the most successful translations in use today." The Harper Collins Bible Dictionary calls it one of the "major translations of the Bible into English," along with the Knox translation, the Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible and the New English Bible. p. 292

You are a JW...of course you are going to think that way. Can you say bias? If my favorite color is blue, I am not going to agree with you when you say red is better. :rolleyes:

The NASB is widely regarded as the most accurate, formal equivalent translation into English by theological scholars. The NWT is classified as a HIGHLY paraphrased, inaccurate translation.
As you can see above this is not true. What you do find is that the average, layman and scholarly members of Christendom do not like JW doctrine and genuinely believe the WT made the NWT so that our doctrine would stick to it. When scholars approach the NWT with this mind frame, along with their already biased believfs they reject the NWT, stating it is inaccurate, which is understandable.

I am not biased, I understand that no bible is perfect, however some are better than others. Hence the reason why I asked you what scriptures in specific are inaccurate, you once again have not answered the challenge. I tend to find that people bash the NWT and yet are incapable explaining their reasons why, you on the other hand can't even give a single scripture, you just posted a chart about other versions that proves nothing.

The NWT is not even included because most of theological academia completely disregard it for the above mentioned reasons. If it were to fall on the chart, it would be between the TV and TM.

The NASB, you must be joking. You're talking about a bible that doesn't have the name of YHWH even in the most basic of places such as Psalms 83:18 but replaces them with the word LORD!? Can a book be called accurate when it removes the name of the author approximately 7000 times?
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
God is a spirit, he has no gender. The Bible’s use of the designation “Father” helps us to understand that God can be compared to that of a loving and protective father. It makes further sense that he's referred to as a "he" as his attributes are more like Mans than women. Man naturally dominates woman and takes the lead in matters, a woman is naturally more submissive. Also, since ones source of life is from the father it makes even more sense to refer to God as a he.

Complete BS and not biblical.

You keep stating you hold the credential and that I should learn things, I think you have it the wrong way around friend.

There is nothing for me to learn from a JW, the WT or the NWT.

God doesn't punish us because of Adams sin, rather Adam sinful nature gets passed down to us generation after generation as we are his descendants.

Original sin is BS. It is a human concoction.

Your absurd claim is simply you being a bad sport using bad debating tactics, once again.

At least my debating points are actually biblical and logical.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
The NASB, you must be joking. You're talking about a bible that doesn't have the name of YHWH even in the most basic of places such as Psalms 83:18 but replaces them with the word LORD!? Can a book be called accurate when it removes the name of the author approximately 7000 times?

YHWH is not a Hebrew term. It is a transliteration of a Hebrew term. Besides, the Bible is a man made holy book, complete with all the primitive, male chauvinistic attitudes that still dominate that part of the world. Anyone with half a brain and an ounce of common sense can plainly see that, once they get past their blinding religious biases.

God did not author anything. God did not come down from the cosmos, sit at a desk, grab a quill/ink, and write anything. Oh wait...God "spoke" to people's minds and divinely inspired the Bible, even though there is ZERO proof of it. :rolleyes:

I have to ask one question: are you fluent with Hebrew or Koine Greek? My guess is no, as most Christians aren't.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Lets see what modern day scholars say about the NWT and its accuracy then, here are just some of many;

ALLEN WIKGREN: (Allen Wikgren was on the New Revised Standard Version committee, as well as on the committee which produced the UBS Greek text). "Independent readings of merit often occur in other modern speech versions, such as...the Jehovah's Witnesses edition of the New Testament(1950)." (The Interpreter's Bible, 1952 Vol. 1 page 99)

BENJAMIN KEDAR: (Benjamin Kedar is a professor of Hebrew in Israel). "In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavour to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. Giving evidence of a broad command of the original language, it renders the original words into a second language understandably without deviating unnecessarily from the specific structure of the Hebrew...Every statement of language allows for a certain latitude in interpreting or translation. So the linguistic solution in any given case may be open to debate. But I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain."

S. MACLEAN GILMORE: "In 1950 the Jehovah's Witnesses published their New World Translation of the New Testament, and the preparation of the New World Old Testament is now far advanced. The New Testament edition was made by a committee...that possessed an unusual competence in Greek." (The Andover Newton Quarterly, September 1966, Vol 7, #1 page 25, 26) 5. C. HOUTMAN: Mr. Houtman notes that on the point of translator bias. "the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses can survive the scrutiny of criticism." (Nederlands Theologisch Tijdschrift, [Dutch Theological Magazines] 38 1984, page 279-280)

JASON BEDUHN: (Jason Beduhn teaches at the University of Indiana). "I have just recently completed teaching a course for the Religious Studies Department of Indiana University, Bloomington, ...This is primarily a course in the Gospels. Your help came in the form of copies of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures which my students used as one of the textbooks for the class. These small volumes were invaluable to the course and very popular with my students...Simply put, it is the best interlinear New Testament available. I am a trained scholar of the Bible, familiar with the texts and tools in use in modern biblical studies, and by the way, not a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses. But I know a quality publication when I see one, and your 'New World Bible Translation Committee' has done its job well. Your interlinear English rendering is accurate and consistent to an extreme that forces the reader to come to terms with the linguistic, cultural, and conceptual gaps between the Greek-speaking world and our own. Your 'New World Translation' is a high quality, literal translation that avoids traditional glosses in its faithfulness to the Greek. It is, in many ways, superior to the most successful translations in use today." The Harper Collins Bible Dictionary calls it one of the "major translations of the Bible into English," along with the Knox translation, the Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible and the New English Bible. p. 292

I can produce my own list with a quick Google search. I only need one name: Bruce M. Metzger, PhD. He was a professor at Princeton Theological Seminary, textual critic, member of the board of the American Bible Society and United Bible Societies, and specialized in the study of the Greek NT. He was the general editor of the Reader's Digest Bible, chaired the committee for the NRSV, and often used historical criticism in his writings. Here's what this powerhouse of a biblical scholar had to say about the NWT:

Besides refusing to take into account the evidence set forth above, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have incorporated in their translation of the New Testament several quite erroneous renderings of the Greek.

1. In the New World Translation the opening verse of the Gospel according to John is mistranslated as follows: “Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” A footnote which is added to the first word, “Originally,” reads, “Literally, In (At) a beginning.” By using here the indefinite article “a” the translators have overlooked the well-known fact that in Greek grammar nouns may be definite for various reasons, whether or not the Greek definite article is present. A prepositional phrase, for example, where the definite article is not expressed, can be quite definite in Greek, 18 as in fact it is in John 1:1. The customary translation, “In the beginning was the Word,” is therefore to be preferred to either alternative suggested by the New World translators.

Far more pernicious in this same verse is the rendering, “… and the Word was a god,” with the following footnote: “‘A god.’ In contrast with ‘the God.’” It must be stated quite frankly that, if the Jehovah’s Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists. In view of the additional light which is available during this age of Grace, such a representation is even more reprehensible than were the heathenish, polytheistic errors into which ancient Israel was so prone to fall.

As a matter of solid fact, however, such a rendering is a frightful mistranslation. It overlooks entirely an established rule of Greek grammar which necessitates the rendering, “… and the Word was God.” Some years ago Dr. Ernest Cadman Colwell of the University of Chicago pointed out in a study of the Greek definite article that, “A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb. … The opening verse of John’s Gospel contains one of the many passages where this rule suggests the translation of a predicate as a definite noun. The absence of the article [before θεος] does not make the predicate indefinite or qualitative when it precedes the verb; it is indefinite in this position only when the context demands it. The context makes no such demand in the Gospel of John, for this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas [John 20:28, ‘My Lord and my God’].” 19

In a lengthy Appendix in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ translation, which was added to support the mistranslation of John 1:1, there are quoted thirty-five other passages in John where the predicate noun has the definite article in Greek. 20 These are intended to prove that the absence of the article in John 1:1 requires that θεος must be translated “a god.” None of the thirty-five instances is parallel, however, for in every case the predicate noun stands after the verb, and so, according to Colwell’s rule, properly has the article. So far, therefore, from being evidence against the usual translation of John 1:1, these instances add confirmation to the full enunciation of the rule of the Greek definite article.

Furthermore, the additional references quoted in the New World Translation from the Greek of the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, 21 in order to give further support to the erroneous rendering in the opening verse of John, are exactly in conformity with Colwell’s rule, and therefore are added proof of the accuracy of the rule. The other passages adduced in the Appendix are, for one reason or another, not applicable to the question at issue. One must conclude, therefore, that no sound reason has been advanced for altering the traditional rendering of the opening verse of John’s Gospel, “… and the Word was God.”


Source: http://www.bible-researcher.com/metzger.jw.html

In other words, the NWT is the result of a committee that did not have a clue about the Hebrew or Greek and just rewrote the KJV to suit their needs. Then you have people like Dr. Metzger, who are specialized in the Greek NT, that called them out on it. Guess who has the credibility? ;)
 
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