What did Jesus the "Messiah" Sacrifice?

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

I am trying to present this from a skeptic point of view, so anyway. I've been thinking, what exactly did Jesus sacrifice? Jesus supposedly always knew he was going to die, and he also knew he was god. So really in the long run, yeah he suffered or whatever, but then he knew he would be in paradise. So in my opinion, he didn't sacrifice much. Giving up a not-so-good earthly life for an unending perfect life in paradise, at the cost of some torture and beatings does not sound like much of a sacrifice to me.

Anyways, I'm done with my rambling.

-Apostle Of Lucifer

 

[Evandr]

I am trying to present this from a skeptic point of view, so anyway. I've been thinking, what exactly did Jesus sacrifice? Jesus supposedly always knew he was going to die, and he also knew he was god. So really in the long run, yeah he suffered or whatever, but then he knew he would be in paradise. So in my opinion, he didn't sacrifice much. Giving up a not-so-good earthly life for an unending perfect life in paradise, at the cost of some torture and beatings does not sound like much of a sacrifice to me.

Anyways, I'm done with my rambling.

-Apostle Of Lucifer

Good question. Here's my take on it.

Jesus Christ did not sacrifice himself he simply and willingly took upon himself the sins of the world, an act so terrible in its scope that it caused even God, the greatest of all to bleed from every pore.

Now, God (the father) is perfect in His justice and mercy. No one will receive undue consequences for their actions. In this light, in a pre arranged and agreed to scenario by all parties involved, it can be said that He sacrificed His perfect record of not allowing an unjust consequence to befall anyone, let alone His perfect Son. In short, so that man might be redeemed, the Father forced Himself to turn away as His perfect Son suffered. That constitutes a true sacrifice because, by definition, a sacrifice is giving up something good for something better. Jesus gave up the protection from the consequences of sin by suffering those consequences as a sinless person and God the Father turned aside as Christ finished the work. I am quite sure that Christ carries the weight of that memory with Him, a memory that I am quite sure would crush any mortal mind.

Here is a simplistic analogy - It's like you paying someone to do a job for you and then finding you needed to finish the job because it was too much for the hireling, after which you still pay the hireling in full. You gave up something good, that being freedom from having to do the work yourself while still paying the hireling but you gaind something better - strength to your character and wisdom to your mind.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Good question. Here's my take on it.

Jesus Christ did not sacrifice himself he simply and willingly took upon himself the sins of the world, an act so terrible in its scope that it caused even God, the greatest of all to bleed from every pore.

Now, God (the father) is perfect in His justice and mercy. No one will receive undue consequences for their actions. In this light, in a pre arranged and agreed to scenario by all parties involved, it can be said that He sacrificed His perfect record of not allowing an unjust consequence to befall anyone, let alone His perfect Son. In short, so that man might be redeemed, the Father forced Himself to turn away as His perfect Son suffered. That constitutes a true sacrifice because, by definition, a sacrifice is giving up something good for something better. Jesus gave up the protection from the consequences of sin by suffering those consequences as a sinless person and God the Father turned aside as Christ finished the work. I am quite sure that Christ carries the weight of that memory with Him, a memory that I am quite sure would crush any mortal mind.

Here is a simplistic analogy - It's like you paying someone to do a job for you and then finding you needed to finish the job because it was too much for the hireling, after which you still pay the hireling in full. You gave up something good, that being freedom from having to do the work yourself while still paying the hireling but you gaind something better - strength to your character and wisdom to your mind.

Well what I'm trying to present is what did Jesus actually sacrifice? It says that he took the sins and all that, he suffered, all that according to the bible. But he gave up a ****** earthly life, one where he was rediculed etc, for a perfect life in "heaven". He was supposedly god himself, so really he didn't lose anything. Save for an imperfect earthly human body.

 

[Evandr]

Well what I'm trying to present is what did Jesus actually sacrifice? It says that he took the sins and all that, he suffered, all that according to the bible. But he gave up a ****** earthly life, one where he was rediculed etc, for a perfect life in "heaven". He was supposedly god himself, so really he didn't lose anything. Save for an imperfect earthly human body.

The definition of sacrifice is to give up something good for something else, usually better if you are wise. It does not necessarily mean losing something permanently.

It is true that Jesus Christ is currently in the presence of His father but remember this, He did not have to take the path He did to get there. He sacrificed the easy path, one that only a sinless person can traverse, for the hard path so that we could all get there if we will but keep His commandments.

The simplest way I can explain it (given my infinitely limited mental capacity before God) is Jesus gave up His right to not having to suffer for sin (something good) in exchange for the right to open a path around the demands of justice (something better) that would otherwise condemn all mankind to eternal suffering. Add that to the extent and scope of the ordeal and there is nothing else you could call it but sacrifice.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

The definition of sacrifice is to give up something good for something else, usually better if you are wise. It does not necessarily mean losing something permanently.

It is true that Jesus Christ is currently in the presence of His father but remember this, He did not have to take the path He did to get there. He sacrificed the easy path, one that only a sinless person can traverse, for the hard path so that we could all get there if we will but keep His commandments.

The simplest way I can explain it (given my infinitely limited mental capacity before God) is Jesus gave up His right to not having to suffer for sin (something good) in exchange for the right to open a path around the demands of justice (something better) that would otherwise condemn all mankind to eternal suffering. Add that to the extent and scope of the ordeal and there is nothing else you could call it but sacrifice.

But, if the doctrines are correct, Jesus was god. So how would it be hard to live a sinless life?

 

[Evandr]

But, if the doctrines are correct, Jesus was god. So how would it be hard to live a sinless life?

This is one area where my beliefs and that of the majority of Christianity differ somewhat. In the pre-mortal existence Jesus Christ was a son of God just like you and me, However, He rose in knowledge and stature to become the greatest among us. Being the first born of the Father probably had something to do with His obtaining that level of greatness. I don't know if you are aware of this but Lucifer was also one of the great and noble ones, He was called the Son of the Morning before he was cast out for rebellion but I'm getting off track so back to Christ.

Because of His greatness and glory Jesus did stand at the right hand of God and received of His power as much as it were possible, thus He was seen as being equal to the Father save in one very important aspect. Jesus had not a body of flesh and bone as did His Father. It was necessary for Christ to be born into the world and live His life just as we must. The only difference being that His mortal Body was conceived in the womb of Mary By God and not by Man.

Now this may seem unfair that Jesus had such an advantage but it is not such an advantage when one considers what Christ had to go through during His lifetime in order for His trials to be equal to His divinity. I will make one comparison and then liken all His trials to it. Wherein you or I might fast for a day or even two, Jesus fasted for 40 days and 40 nights. His energy and vitality must have been drained nearly to the brink of death. While suffering all that in body and soul, it was then that Lucifer came personally and tempted Jesus in every way with as much power and energy as He could muster. Jesus did not give in even in His extraordinarily hungry and weakened state.

Make no mistake about it, Jesus Christ was subjected to trials and temptations that were equal to who He was. His trial on Earth was every bit as challenging for Him as yours and mine are to us or of anyone else who has ever lived or ever will live on the face of the earth. If it were not so, our Heavenly Father could not be called a just God.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

This is one area where my beliefs and that of the majority of Christianity differ somewhat. In the pre-mortal existence Jesus Christ was a son of God just like you and me, However, He rose in knowledge and stature to become the greatest among us. Being the first born of the Father probably had something to do with His obtaining that level of greatness. I don't know if you are aware of this but Lucifer was also one of the great and noble ones, He was called the Son of the Morning before he was cast out for rebellion but I'm getting off track so back to Christ.

Because of His greatness and glory Jesus did stand at the right hand of God and received of His power as much as it were possible, thus He was seen as being equal to the Father save in one very important aspect. Jesus had not a body of flesh and bone as did His Father. It was necessary for Christ to be born into the world and live His life just as we must. The only difference being that His mortal Body was conceived in the womb of Mary By God and not by Man.

Now this may seem unfair that Jesus had such an advantage but it is not such an advantage when one considers what Christ had to go through during His lifetime in order for His trials to be equal to His divinity. I will make one comparison and then liken all His trials to it. Wherein you or I might fast for a day or even two, Jesus fasted for 40 days and 40 nights. His energy and vitality must have been drained nearly to the brink of death. While suffering all that in body and soul, it was then that Lucifer came personally and tempted Jesus in every way with as much power and energy as He could muster. Jesus did not give in even in His extraordinarily hungry and weakened state.

Make no mistake about it, Jesus Christ was subjected to trials and temptations that were equal to who He was. His trial on Earth was every bit as challenging for Him as yours and mine are to us or of anyone else who has ever lived or ever will live on the face of the earth. If it were not so, our Heavenly Father could not be called a just God.

How exactly was he conceived then?

And I do not believe in Jesus, so I don't believe Lucifer tempted him, and your god is certainly not my Father. But I do thank you for your opinion, it is appreciated.

 

[Zardoz]

Before anyone else wastes their time posting on this thread, read this:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1895601-post2.html

Please put me on your ignore list, as I now add your name to mine.

 

[arimoff]

Before anyone else wastes their time posting on this thread, read this:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1895601-post2.html

Please put me on your ignore list, as I now add your name to mine.

hold on brother, where did you find this? I mean if he actually posted this wasn't it supposed to be deleted by the administrators? looool.

 

[Evandr]

How exactly was he conceived then?

And I do not believe in Jesus, so I don't believe Lucifer tempted him, and your god is certainly not my Father. But I do thank you for your opinion, it is appreciated.

I have often heard people get a bit excited when I express my belief that we all have the same Heavenly Father. I think perfect political correctness often bogs down a good conversation. If I refer to God as your or our Heavenly Father please understand it is just my belief and nothing personal is intended.

I do return the appreciation you extended and to answer your question; I do not know the details nor would I ever speculate on such a sacred and sensitive subject. Suffice it to say that God created man from the dust of the earth and then took a rib from Him and fashioned a woman. It is not a very far stretch to believe that He could cause the embryonic growth in Mary without the introduction of mortal male influence.

 

[Zardoz]

hold on brother, where did you find this? I mean if he actually posted this wasn't it supposed to be deleted by the administrators? looool.

It's from this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/93496-neo-nazism-satanism.html#post1895673

He can post whatever he likes, I just stick such on my ignore list.

 

[Volhv]

Supposedly, according to the standard Christian doctrine, he sacrificed himself.
Then again, it's all purely symbolic and allegorical in meaning: Jesus, the sun (Horus), son of a virgin (Virgo, Isis), sacrifices himself annually on the winter solstice, the 21-22nd of December; just to rice from the dead three days later, on the 24-25th of December (i.e. Christmas). His "miraculous" resurrection is then celebrated on the feast of Osatra, (i.e. Easter), when the day starts to grow in duration. The "three kings" - the three stars in Orion's belt, the "star in the east" - Sirius.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Before anyone else wastes their time posting on this thread, read this:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1895601-post2.html

Please put me on your ignore list, as I now add your name to mine.

Seems I ****** off a few jewish people. I don't think that anyone should refuse to answer a question that I ask because of my personal beliefs. I'm not rude to people I don't like. Believe me I could be saying some pretty nasty stuff right now, but I won't. I'm not a rude person. But however you choose to feel about me, is exactly that: your choice. It doesn't bother me one bit.

 

[minore]

I am trying to present this from a skeptic point of view, so anyway. I've been thinking, what exactly did Jesus sacrifice? Jesus supposedly always knew he was going to die, and he also knew he was god. So really in the long run, yeah he suffered or whatever, but then he knew he would be in paradise. So in my opinion, he didn't sacrifice much. Giving up a not-so-good earthly life for an unending perfect life in paradise, at the cost of some torture and beatings does not sound like much of a sacrifice to me.

Anyways, I'm done with my rambling.

-Apostle Of Lucifer

He did not have to do it.
He did it because it was the only way to get people to believe.
To die for the name.
So that one day, in knowing the name, you will know love,
as it should be.
And those who hate will no longer be above.
But below.
Thus preparing the way for people to acknowledge the name in future.
But it was inevitable.
If you say the truth. Few believe. For it hurts.
But if you hide the truth. The truth will forever hide.
If you come with presents to see like santa claus with satanic claws, people believe you.
If your presence is hidden, as it should be, genuinely, people do not believe.
Except those who know you and were with you from the beginning.
A miracle and a sign is a present to see.
It is a gift because it gives a chance to those who do not deserve it.
Yet they still did not see. As it was not the right time.
The right time means that not enough could or would believe before they reached the point of hating him too much.
Better a tsunami wave of emotion than a Buddha under a tree.
because it hits the spirit
and the spirit lives through the ages
little vendor shopping of religion is otherwise forgotten
life to life, soul to new soul, spirit of the same
But now there are signs that are present to see.
The soul of many shake.
Thus the soul of tierra does like.
Like soul. Like earth.
Like spirit. Like heavens.
And it is the right time.
And people will believe.
Then the destruction will end.
For you destroy what is spiritual.
So God destroys what matters to you. Matter.
Until you are naked as you came.
As I said would happen.
And those before me said also.
These are not words to judge.
They are words to hear.
If you cannot hear.
Then shut up your tongue, the snake it is, and find your peace.
Fear is a deaf ear.
Do not fear what is love.
Like a man fears what is woman.
Do not fear what is truth.
Like a woman fears what is man.
Hear from both ears.

I did not come here to answer this question. Or stay. But fire and forget. For watch the vultures of doubt come out after this post. But why not kill two stones with one bird. Like two lights with one blink.

Now listen. This is for the Jews. Those who call themselves Jews.
Now hear.

The rainbow serpent bites its own tail
hungry for food
she lies deep in the ocean
his tail rests in the earth
her fable
his myth
the water sings a lullaby
the mountains are talking
welcome back they say
"but I am dreaming", I said
They murmur," No, you just woke"
"fly,
sleep in the mouth of the dragon
let her carry you through the sky
pull out your sword
golden in glory
break the world
throw your sword down!"
they all said
So I say to them and all below
I am serpent king
a bird on my head
teeth like a cat
growllllllllllllll
I rule the dragons
I rule the beasts
I am Israel
lord of the living
I am who was
who came
who died
who lived
who is
I rule the angels
my father is in me
my mother is here
my child is me
I am three
holy to be
I AM
love
God is love
fear not love
man
woman
one
love
Israel is three
it was made for three
three kings
my three kings
my three lives
my name
no nation
no people
no land
my name
Israel
who knows my name?
who follows my name?
who loves?
love
Israel
the morning sun
It's sunrise today
wake up
rise
rise
rise
three times
three men
three ways
three cups
three fives
three sevens
three heavens
three wise men
you
you
and you
three fools
you
you
and you
no body is wise
the spirit is
just is
IS
RA
EL

(the worst poem word has ever written, but I give my worst presents to the most ignorant people, written without a heart, a heart never written)

seven plates
seven spirits
seven seals
seven seas
five winds
five suns
five sins
five guns

the weather is mood
the weather is the moon
is all of you
the moon is worried
the sun
the sun is mine
and mine is the sun

ciao, no more answers
the vultures will mass now


Until you find me in another place

perhaps a face to heighten the race

don't disgrace

Look!

your shoe lace

tie it

word

absurd

word is
word knows
word is love
love is word
I am word
word I am

 

[McBell]

word is
word knows
word is love
love is word
I am word
word I am

"BRIAN DON'T!"
[youtube]2WNrx2jq184[/youtube]
YouTube - Family Guy - Bird is the Word!

 

[What is the Bible]

Before anyone else wastes their time posting on this thread, read this:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1895601-post2.html

Please put me on your ignore list, as I now add your name to mine.

Thanks

 

[septimus]

Many will reject love because they fear it. Love them. Pray for them.
Many will reject the word because they fear it. Love them. Pray for them.

The human race was once scattered over the earth and separated by language barriers because of their pride in the Tower of Babel.
Now, at a time when we need to come together, they are given His love, and given His words, and now show pride in a mere tower of babble. Because they fear.
Love them. Pray for them.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Thanks

You people act like I'm the only one on RF who thinks the way I do. Just because others have not posted what they believe does not mean they are not out there. It was an appropriate post for the thread. I am not afraid to post what I believe. If you would have read further along in the later posts that I put on that same thread, you would have seen my clarified beliefs. I may be quick to judge, yes sometimes I am, I will admit that. But I am no quicker to judge than you are, as you have proven.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Many will reject love because they fear it. Love them. Pray for them.
Many will reject the word because they fear it. Love them. Pray for them.
.

I reject the word because I have found the light. I do not fear the word of god, nor his "love". I am above it

Now rather than posting poems, I would like to hear some opinions on my OP. Thank you

 

[Adramelek]

Jesus Christ in my opinion was nothing more than a philosopher in a troubled time and not the son of any god. I think he wanted to help people, to give them hope in a seemingly hopeless time. Many with great political power didn't like what he was doing and what he had to say. He became an outlaw. Jesus died because he had no choice as a convicted criminal of the state. In my opinion, the Nazarene sacrificed nothing.

He did, however, become a symbol for the rise of a new cult called Christianity which spread into a world wide belief system. They say how could millions of people be wrong? Well, millions of people used to think the Earth was flat and that it was the center of the Universe.

Xeper em Ma'at!
/Adramelek\