What do all Wiccan's believe?

[Mike182]

I definitely disagree. There is very little evidence to support the idea that Wicca existed before Gardener, and much more evidence in support of Wicca being a very young religion.

For starters, nobody other than Gardener has any idea if Dorothy Clutterbuck or New Forest even existed, and if they did, how old it even was. Not to mention the fact that most of the "history" of Witchcraft provided by Gardener was later proved to be wrong. Gardener's "Old Religion" has much more in common with Ceremonial Magic than it does with any ancient Pagan belief system. In fact, Gardener was a good friend of Crowley's, a Mason, and a member of the OTO. The influence is clear. Yes, Wicca does incorporate things from the original "Pagans", but only tiny pieces here and there that were fit together in an entirely different context. It is very very very unlikely that even if New Forest did exist, that they were practicing anything that was older than the 19th century. And if something did exist before the 1950's, then it was undoubtedly heavily influenced by the writings of Margret Murray (who was referenced a lot by early Wiccan authors), which have been completely discredited.

Gardener definitely did not take the rede from Thompson's poem. And, the poem is not the Wiccan Rede.

ah! New Forest! that is an interesting topic to discuss... let me pull some notes out... but generally speaking, the New Forest Coven didn't exist as an actual Coven of witches, and certainly nothing of ancient origin or practice.

it's late over here and i'm about to go to sleep, plus i don't have my notes handy, but i will post some stuff on the New Forest Coven probably late tomorrow evening.

 

[MaddLlama]

ah! New Forest! that is an interesting topic to discuss... let me pull some notes out... but generally speaking, the New Forest Coven didn't exist as an actual Coven of witches, and certainly nothing of ancient origin or practice.

it's late over here and i'm about to go to sleep, plus i don't have my notes handy, but i will post some stuff on the New Forest Coven probably late tomorrow evening.

I will be really interested to see what you have! I tried for a while to find some info on the subject but kept coming up empty handed. Though, living in the UK I'm sure you have more resources at your disposal. XD

 

[Mike182]

I will be really interested to see what you have! I tried for a while to find some info on the subject but kept coming up empty handed. Though, living in the UK I'm sure you have more resources at your disposal. XD

i have a 40 year old ex Gardnerian Wiccan who spent 20 years researching the subject to chat with for 4 hours each week

ok, before i go to bed, i'll give you two spoilers that will point you the direction you will approve of...

Rudolf Hess and Ian Flemming...

enjoy

 

[Reverend Rick]

I would like to hear comments on the following statements.

It takes a Witch to make a Witch.

One can look in the mirror and simply affirm they are a Witch all by themselves.

 

[MaddLlama]

I would like to hear comments on the following statements.

It takes a Witch to make a Witch.

One can look in the mirror and simply affirm they are a Witch all by themselves.

That depends on what you mean by that. If you mean that a person can't call themselves a witch unless they were trained by another, then I certainly disagree. With practice witchcraft is something anyone can learn, however it's not something everyone should learn. Being a witch has nothing to do with what coven you belong to, or who taught you.

 

[Mike182]

I would like to hear comments on the following statements.

It takes a Witch to make a Witch.

One can look in the mirror and simply affirm they are a Witch all by themselves.

yes, any student of anything needs a teacher, be that a teacher who is physically there or a teacher who has written literature that you are learning from.

i don't see the bearing of this on Wicca though...

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

Couldn't tell you that but I do have a healthy respect for the pre-Christian beliefs in the power of nature and reverence of it, "pagan" holidays etc. Gerald Gardner (generally said to be the father of modern Wicca) bought rituals from Aleister Crowley and changed them to suit his needs, interestingly enough most Wiccans I've come across seem to want to distance themselves from Crowley, don't quite understand that one.

 

[MaddLlama]

BTW Mike, I did read those two wiki articles. I have to say that is definately an interesting connection. And, I am of course still anxious to see your New Forest notes. =D

 

[bflydad]

I definitely disagree. There is very little evidence to support the idea that Wicca existed before Gardener, and much more evidence in support of Wicca being a very young religion.

I never said Wicca existed before Gardner (also, can you please start spelling his name correctly, please). I said Wicca had roots that existed before Gardner. I agree Wicca is a young religion and getting younger everyday.

For starters, nobody other than Gardener has any idea if Dorothy Clutterbuck or New Forest even existed, and if they did, how old it even was.

any idea? hunh? How about Heselton? Obviously there is no first hand absolute proof but to say no one has any idea is just wrong.

Not to mention the fact that most of the "history" of Witchcraft provided by Gardener was later proved to be wrong. Gardener's "Old Religion" has much more in common with Ceremonial Magic than it does with any ancient Pagan belief system. In fact, Gardener was a good friend of Crowley's, a Mason, and a member of the OTO. The influence is clear.

I agree

Yes, Wicca does incorporate things from the original "Pagans", but only tiny pieces here and there that were fit together in an entirely different context.

Which original Pagans are you referring to? and which "tiny pieces"? a reverence for nature? how is the context different? a belief in a God and Goddess? how is the context different?

It is very very very unlikely that even if New Forest did exist, that they were practicing anything that was older than the 19th century. And if something did exist before the 1950's, then it was undoubtedly heavily influenced by the writings of Margret Murray (who was referenced a lot by early Wiccan authors), which have been completely discredited.

you are welcome to your opinion

Gardener definitely did not take the rede from Thompson's poem. And, the poem is not the Wiccan Rede.

I didn't claim that Gardner took the Rede from Thompson's poem. I said they may have a point of common ancenstry.

 

[bflydad]

I would like to hear comments on the following statements.

It takes a Witch to make a Witch.

One can look in the mirror and simply affirm they are a Witch all by themselves.

I assume you mean formal initiation, not reading a book by a Witch.

I am more taken by the 8th Principle of Wicca: "Calling oneself 'Witch' does not make a Witch – but neither does heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles, degrees and initiations". I believe there are good sources out there that can point people in the right direction so that with time, dedication, and work, they can become Witches. At that point, they can initiate themselves.

 

[Mike182]

ok, the New Forest Coven!

Rudolf Hess is a German guy, leading figure in the Nazi party, adviser to Hitler himself, and an occultist.

Ian Flemming plays a big role in Naval Intelligence during the war, and he got the fun task of spreading false information and rumor to leak through to the Germans. given that Hess was an occultist, he talked to many English occultists, like Gardner, Crowley etc. to get decent information on the sort of rituals occultists use.

after researching it all, in the spring of 1941, Flemming stages an event at New Forest where he got 12 marines to get robed up in black sheets with lots of masonic symbolism on them to do a ritual. i don't know the specific ritual that they did, something that involved a magic mirror, a dummy of Hitler and a lot of chanting...

 

[MaddLlama]

So, then New Forest was a hoax? What's the connection with Gardner and Clutterbuck?

 

[Mike182]

So, then New Forest was a hoax? What's the connection with Gardner and Clutterbuck?

Clutterbuck is the woman Gardner claimed initiated him into witchcraft... he claimed that she was part of the New Forest Coven, but no evidence has ever been produced to support that.

 

[MaddLlama]

Clutterbuck is the woman Gardner claimed initiated him into witchcraft... he claimed that she was part of the New Forest Coven, but no evidence has ever been produced to support that.

Hmm.

Do you know if he knew Crowley before this?

 

[Mike182]

Hmm.

Do you know if he knew Crowley before this?

erm, let me think.... Crowley initiated Gardner into the OTO, but i don't know when that was...

 

[Moonshadow]

Interesting thread, I am new here and havent looked at page 2 yet but I wanted to say that there are times when I am rather Agnostic, when I doubt the full spectrum of my path and why I am on this path and I think thats very normal so I would say that a person can be slightly Agnostic and remain Wiccan, also I only deal with The Goddess, I have not had any communication with any God so while I agree that balance is very important and that there is likely a God somewhere around, I do not worry about it because Its not part of my path.

I have encountered many who would tell me I am not Wiccan because I only deal with The Goddess and am Agnostic at times but to me a Wiccan is someone who reveres and honors at the very least a Goddess, practices Magic (I do this but rarely and only as a last result), follows the rede, the law of return, the wheel, waits for major changes to occur, etc.

Ive been Wiccan a long time so I am not happy when someone comes along and tells me I am not Wiccan, lol, anyways, just my two cents.

Blessed Be!
Moonshadow

 

[Gentoo]

Interesting thread, I am new here and havent looked at page 2 yet but I wanted to say that there are times when I am rather Agnostic, when I doubt the full spectrum of my path and why I am on this path and I think thats very normal so I would say that a person can be slightly Agnostic and remain Wiccan, also I only deal with The Goddess, I have not had any communication with any God so while I agree that balance is very important and that there is likely a God somewhere around, I do not worry about it because Its not part of my path.

I have encountered many who would tell me I am not Wiccan because I only deal with The Goddess and am Agnostic at times but to me a Wiccan is someone who reveres and honors at the very least a Goddess, practices Magic (I do this but rarely and only as a last result), follows the rede, the law of return, the wheel, waits for major changes to occur, etc.

Ive been Wiccan a long time so I am not happy when someone comes along and tells me I am not Wiccan, lol, anyways, just my two cents.

Blessed Be!
Moonshadow

When I was Wiccan, I dealt mostly with the God and was agnostic towards the Goddess I'm still not very Goddess oriented though..

 

[Reverend Rick]

I would like to know more about Lady Frieda Harris

 

[darkmage121]

When it comes to the Wiccan faith, I do believe in it more than I just practice it. I pray to the Mother goddess and Father God and hope they watch down upon me. When it comes to the afterlife, I someday hope to rest in the Summerlands.